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Tom Servo
Frantic alarmism nonwithstanding, there is plenty of information out there that shows those in the environmental movement to be, to a great degree, little more than a bunch of...well...frantic alarmists.

With the plentiful ammo out there to debunk these anti-scientists, I'll kick it all off with the transcripts from a couple of presentations given by Michael Crichton. Yeah, the guy writes fiction novels, but he received his B.A. from Harvard summa c um laude and later received his M.D. from the same institution. The man's definitely nobody's fool.

QUOTE
Environmentalism as Religion

<snip>
I studied anthropology in college, and one of the things I learned was that certain human social structures always reappear. They can't be eliminated from society. One of those structures is religion. Today it is said we live in a secular society in which many people---the best people, the most enlightened people---do not believe in any religion. But I think that you cannot eliminate religion from the psyche of mankind. If you suppress it in one form, it merely re-emerges in another form. You can not believe in God, but you still have to believe in something that gives meaning to your life, and shapes your sense of the world. Such a belief is religious.

Today, one of the most powerful religions in the Western World is environmentalism. Environmentalism seems to be the religion of choice for urban atheists. Why do I say it's a religion? Well, just look at the beliefs. If you look carefully, you see that environmentalism is in fact a perfect 21st century remapping of traditional Judeo-Christian beliefs and myths.


http://www.crichton-official.com/speeches/...es_quote05.html

QUOTE
Fear, Complexity, & Environmental Management in the 21st Century

<snip>Some of you know I have written a book that many people find controversial. It is called State of Fear, and I want to tell you how I came to write it. Because up until five years ago, I had very conventional ideas about the environment and the success of the environmental movement.

The book really began in 1998, when I set out to write a novel about a global disaster. In the course of my preparation, I rather casually reviewed what had happened in Chernobyl, since that was the worst manmade disaster in recent times that I knew about.

What I discovered stunned me. Chernobyl was a tragic event, but nothing remotely close to the global catastrophe I imagined. About 50 people had died in Chernobyl, roughly the number of Americans that die every day in traffic accidents. I don’t mean to be gruesome, but it was a setback for me. You can’t write a novel about a global disaster in which only 50 people die.

Undaunted, I began to research other kinds of disasters that might fulfill my novelistic requirements. That’s when I began to realize how big our planet really is, and how resilient its systems seem to be. Even though I wanted to create a fictional catastrophe of global proportions, I found it hard to come up with a credible example. In the end, I set the book aside, and wrote Prey instead.

But the shock that I had experienced reverberated within me for a while. Because what I had been led to believe about Chernobyl was not merely wrong—it was astonishingly wrong.

<snip>

In other words, the greatest damage to the people of Chernobyl was caused by bad information. These people weren’t blighted by radiation so much as by terrifying but false information. We ought to ponder, for a minute, exactly what that implies. We demand strict controls on radiation because it is such a health hazard. But Chernobyl suggests that false information can be a health hazard as damaging as radiation. I am not saying radiation is not a threat. I am not saying Chernobyl was not a genuinely serious event.

But thousands of Ukrainians who didn’t die were made invalids out of fear. They were told to be afraid. They were told they were going to die when they weren’t. They were told their children would be deformed when they weren’t. They were told they couldn’t have children when they could. They were authoritatively promised a future of cancer, deformities, pain and decay. It’s no wonder they responded as they did.


http://www.michaelcrichton.com/speeches/co...complexity.html
Tom Servo
Toyota Prius more damaging overall to the environment than the Hummer!

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?page...rticle_ID=14304

Stage 3 Smug Alert!! laugh.gif
Arturo_Vandelay
I keep telling 'em it harms the environment to make new cars and toss away old ones, but nobody listens.
Tom Servo
IPB Image
That's 'cause nobody wants to listen to a lowdown debauched old heathen! laugh.gif
Brian_Lambchops
The whackos love the idea of a simple high-tech solution. More alternative energy from what, at what price, and how long will it take to replace what we have?
Tom Servo
But almost all their "alternative" energies still involve boiling water, expanding burning gasses, and whirling mechanical Rube Goldbergs.

The real "alternative energy" revolution will involve something drastic, like non-mechanical harnessing of gravity.
Arturo_Vandelay
I still prefer the idea of whip propelled Frenchmen driving the wheels of progress. Sure, it's not that efficient......
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Tom Servo @ Apr 4 2007, 11:45 PM) [snapback]293480[/snapback]

But almost all their "alternative" energies still involve boiling water, expanding burning gasses, and whirling mechanical Rube Goldbergs.

The real "alternative energy" revolution will involve something drastic, like non-mechanical harnessing of gravity.

I expect you're right on that.
Tom Servo
Sticking a thumb in Algore's eye for fun and profit!! laugh.gif
QUOTE
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http://www.carboncreditkillers.com/


Arturo_Vandelay
laugh.gif I love capitalism. Algore does too. Without it he might have to actually cut his carbon footprint instead of buying his way out.
Tom Servo

What?? Carbon credits are a big "obscene" profits scam??

Say it ain't so, Al!!!
QUOTE
Creators of carbon credit scheme cashing in on it
By Judi McLeod
Tuesday, March 13, 2007


There's an elephant in global warming's living room that few in the mainstream media want to talk about: the creators of the carbon credit scheme are the ones cashing in on it.

The two cherub like choirboys singing loudest in the Holier Than Thou Global Warming Cathedral are Maurice Strong and Al Gore.

This duo has done more than anyone else to advance the alarmism of man-made global warming.

With little media monitoring, both Strong and Gore are cashing in on the lucrative cottage industry known as man-made global warming.

Strong is on the board of directors of the Chicago Climate Exchange, Wikipedia-described as "the world's first and North America's only legally binding greenhouse gas emission registry reduction system for emission sources and offset projects in North America and Brazil."


http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/cover031307.htm

Kentucky Thinker
QUOTE(Tom Servo @ Apr 16 2007, 11:29 PM) [snapback]296268[/snapback]

What?? Carbon credits are a big "obscene" profits scam??

Say it ain't so, Al!!!
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/cover031307.htm



Did anyone see the recent article in by Joseph Farrah of WND concerning the compact fluorescant light bulbs that Gore has been promoting?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=55213
Tom Servo
I got yer "consensus" right here!
IPB Image
Kentucky Thinker
QUOTE(Tom Servo @ Apr 19 2007, 07:44 PM) [snapback]296798[/snapback]

I got yer "consensus" right here!
IPB Image



cool.gif
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Kentucky Thinker @ Apr 19 2007, 04:34 PM) [snapback]296796[/snapback]



Did anyone see the recent article in by Joseph Farrah of WND concerning the compact fluorescant light bulbs that Gore has been promoting?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=55213


I wonder if we can buy mercury offsets from Al?
Kentucky Thinker
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Apr 19 2007, 08:15 PM) [snapback]296810[/snapback]

I wonder if we can buy mercury offsets from Al?


The bad thing about that is that I have about 6 of them in my house. Obviously I didn't buy them for the envriro-hype, but I actually like them because they are brighter and use a lot less power. It looks like I'll be going to stock up on some incandescents until they can make these CF bulbs without mercury in them. sad.gif
Arturo_Vandelay
Maybe you can use them exclusively outdoors or something. It's kind of a bummer to have to throw them away.
Kentucky Thinker
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Apr 19 2007, 08:36 PM) [snapback]296816[/snapback]

Maybe you can use them exclusively outdoors or something. It's kind of a bummer to have to throw them away.


That's a good idea Arturo. I'll just use them for my garage and exterior lights. I wonder if the MSM will even cover this since their boy Gore will end up looking stupid. rolleyes.gif
BrooklynBill
QUOTE(Kentucky Thinker @ Apr 20 2007, 12:38 AM) [snapback]296818[/snapback]

That's a good idea Arturo. I'll just use them for my garage and exterior lights. I wonder if the MSM will even cover this since their boy Gore will end up looking stupid. rolleyes.gif


Hey KT, guess who climbed in the window?
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Kentucky Thinker @ Apr 19 2007, 05:38 PM) [snapback]296818[/snapback]


That's a good idea Arturo. I'll just use them for my garage and exterior lights. I wonder if the MSM will even cover this since their boy Gore will end up looking stupid. rolleyes.gif


I doubt you'll see his name on anything related to environmental whackos. They'll probably help him sell mercury offsets and pretend he is fighting mercury and not promoting it.
Kentucky Thinker
QUOTE(TruthTrekker @ Apr 19 2007, 08:42 PM) [snapback]296820[/snapback]

Hey KT, guess who climbed in the window?


Uh oh. Looks like we have another truth-talking rabble rouser. biggrin.gif How's it going bud?
BrooklynBill
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Apr 20 2007, 12:45 AM) [snapback]296823[/snapback]

I doubt you'll see his name on anything related to environmental whackos. They'll probably help him sell mercury offsets and pretend he is fighting mercury and not promoting it.


Al Gore and his Malthusian apocalypse. blink.gif



QUOTE(Kentucky Thinker @ Apr 20 2007, 12:47 AM) [snapback]296826[/snapback]

Uh oh. Looks like we have another truth-talking rabble rouser. biggrin.gif How's it going bud?


Cool...

TS graced with me an invite, so I will be contributing to this board.

Kentucky Thinker
QUOTE(TruthTrekker @ Apr 19 2007, 08:49 PM) [snapback]296827[/snapback]

Al Gore and his Malthusian apocalypse. blink.gif
Cool...

TS graced with me an invite, so I will be contributing to this board.


Outstanding. Well, I've getting ready to do about 4 loads of laundry and I'm going to watch The Taking of Pelham 123. I'll see you soon.

By the way, you should see if TS will let you post a sticky about cognitive dissonance. That post you did on the other board was one of my favorites, and it is SOOOOO relevant today.
BrooklynBill
QUOTE(Kentucky Thinker @ Apr 20 2007, 12:52 AM) [snapback]296833[/snapback]

Outstanding. Well, I've getting ready to do about 4 loads of laundry and I'm going to watch The Taking of Pelham 123. I'll see you soon.

By the way, you should see if TS will let you post a sticky about cognitive dissonance. That post you did on the other board was one of my favorites, and it is SOOOOO relevant today.


I will run it by him....
SRX
QUOTE(TruthTrekker @ Apr 19 2007, 05:49 PM) [snapback]296827[/snapback]

Al Gore and his Malthusian apocalypse. blink.gif
Cool...

TS graced with me an invite, so I will be contributing to this board.


Don't need an invite, but glad to have you here.

Wasn't Paul Erlich a latter day Malthus? Proven wrong in his own lifetime.
gtessex
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Apr 19 2007, 08:15 PM) [snapback]296810[/snapback]

I wonder if we can buy mercury offsets from Al?


How about we just sell Al to a race of space aliens? smile.gif


QUOTE(Kentucky Thinker @ Apr 19 2007, 07:34 PM) [snapback]296796[/snapback]

Did anyone see the recent article in by Joseph Farrah of WND concerning the compact fluorescant light bulbs that Gore has been promoting?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=55213


YUP!

Add to that, The issue with the disposal of used up batteries from Hybrid vehicles.

The fact that to produce Ethanol, it takes other forms of energy to create it. To produce a gallon of Ethanol, it takes a 'heat source' to convert corn, grass and other plant life to Ethanol. That 'heat source' comes in the form of either Coal fired or Natural gas fired boilers. Of course the Al Gores of the world can't think past the present moment and once they do, then those sources of energy will end up on their 'shiit lists'.

Then it's back to square one, where we end up importing more oil from some scumbag country and around in circles we go again! sad.gif
Kentucky Thinker
QUOTE(gtessex @ Apr 20 2007, 07:05 AM) [snapback]296959[/snapback]

How about we just sell Al to a race of space aliens? smile.gif
YUP!

Add to that, The issue with the disposal of used up batteries from Hybrid vehicles.

The fact that to produce Ethanol, it takes other forms of energy to create it. To produce a gallon of Ethanol, it takes a 'heat source' to convert corn, grass and other plant life to Ethanol. That 'heat source' comes in the form of either Coal fired or Natural gas fired boilers. Of course the Al Gores of the world can't think past the present moment and once they do, then those sources of energy will end up on their 'shiit lists'.

Then it's back to square one, where we end up importing more oil from some scumbag country and around in circles we go again! sad.gif


Why is it that the liberal solutions always cost a boatload of money? biggrin.gif
Arturo_Vandelay
Because they figure it will be somebody else's money.

In Gore's case WHILE he is making money himself.
Nomarchy
Malthus is now being touted as a farking lefty? WOW!
BrooklynBill
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Apr 22 2007, 07:06 PM) [snapback]297518[/snapback]

Malthus is now being touted as a farking lefty? WOW!


My mistake, it is actually the Neo-Malthusian model. If you research the modern environmental movement, and its fascination with population reduction, eugenics and sustainable development, i.e., theft of private property, it can best be described as Malthusian.
Arturo_Vandelay
How many kids does Al Gore have again?
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Apr 22 2007, 02:52 PM) [snapback]297526[/snapback]

How many kids does Al Gore have again?

So like, if Krusty the Clown were a supporter of George Bush, that would make eveything Bush stands for completely false, right?
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Apr 22 2007, 01:00 PM) [snapback]297529[/snapback]

So like, if Krusty the Clown were a supporter of George Bush, that would make eveything Bush stands for completely false, right?




If it's good enough for Krusty, it's good enough for me.

IPB Image

SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Apr 22 2007, 03:19 PM) [snapback]297530[/snapback]

If it's good enough for Krusty, it's good enough for me.

IPB Image

Loyal to the last bite. laugh.gif
Tom Servo
QUOTE(Kentucky Thinker @ Apr 19 2007, 06:52 PM) [snapback]296833[/snapback]



By the way, you should see if TS will let you post a sticky about cognitive dissonance. That post you did on the other board was one of my favorites, and it is SOOOOO relevant today.

Yeah. G'head and post it on a new thread.

It won't really need to be stickied as it'll probably be pretty well conversed about and can be easily bumped.

QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Apr 22 2007, 01:06 PM) [snapback]297518[/snapback]

Malthus is now being touted as a farking lefty? WOW!

Dude, sometimes you really need to drop the viewing of virtually anything and everything through the filter of political Hegelian dialectic.
Highstreet
QUOTE(TruthTrekker @ Apr 22 2007, 02:33 PM) [snapback]297522[/snapback]

My mistake, it is actually the Neo-Malthusian model. If you research the modern environmental movement, and its fascination with population reduction, eugenics and sustainable development, i.e., theft of private property, it can best be described as Malthusian.


Don't forget about the Club of Rome. They just put out a 30 year update:

http://www.mnforsustain.org/meadows_limits...update_2004.htm

-------------------------------------------

As to your post, I tend to agree that the modern environmental movement is trying to establish "artificial controls" of something that cannot be controlled, especially on a worldwide basis.

However you also might consider that the Natural Laws will take care of this in their own fashion, and that is what Club of Rome, and Erlich are speaking to. However you seem to be saying that you don't believe any of what these groups are pointing out. Only time will tell.

I, myself, tend to see the truth in the idea that a finite world will provide limits to our population, fuel, and food, and how much pollution it can handle. It seems like a pretty straight forward concept, I just disagree with the way the environmental/ big govt types are reacting to that truth. I have argued with some of them before, and they would say that humans are intelligent enough to constrain ourselves before the natural controls force us to. I just don't agree with their faith in large group/ Big Govt/ World Govt "solutions".

I am curious to yours and others opinions on these ideas.
Tom Servo
QUOTE(Highstreet @ Apr 30 2007, 08:57 AM) [snapback]299077[/snapback]


However you also might consider that the Natural Laws will take care of this in their own fashion, and that is what Club of Rome, and Erlich are speaking to. However you seem to be saying that you don't believe any of what these groups are pointing out. Only time will tell.

Something that both Erlich and the enviro-Moonies seemingly refuse to acknowledge is that technology doesn't stand still. To the point that it often happens that many of these supposed problems get resolved on the fly.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Highstreet @ Apr 30 2007, 07:57 AM) [snapback]299077[/snapback]
I, myself, tend to see the truth in the idea that a finite world will provide limits to our population, fuel, and food, and how much pollution it can handle. It seems like a pretty straight forward concept, I just disagree with the way the environmental/ big govt types are reacting to that truth. I have argued with some of them before, and they would say that humans are intelligent enough to constrain ourselves before the natural controls force us to. I just don't agree with their faith in large group/ Big Govt/ World Govt "solutions".


For one thing richer and better educated populations tend to pollute less and have less children. I figure that's a good starting point. Then rich nations might be able to add some enticements to the polluters. It's like everything else, once you can afford the basics, THEN you can start worrying about the niceties like cleaner this and that.
BrooklynBill
QUOTE(Highstreet @ Apr 30 2007, 02:57 PM) [snapback]299077[/snapback]

Don't forget about the Club of Rome. They just put out a 30 year update:

http://www.mnforsustain.org/meadows_limits...update_2004.htm

-------------------------------------------

As to your post, I tend to agree that the modern environmental movement is trying to establish "artificial controls" of something that cannot be controlled, especially on a worldwide basis.

However you also might consider that the Natural Laws will take care of this in their own fashion, and that is what Club of Rome, and Erlich are speaking to. However you seem to be saying that you don't believe any of what these groups are pointing out. Only time will tell.

I, myself, tend to see the truth in the idea that a finite world will provide limits to our population, fuel, and food, and how much pollution it can handle. It seems like a pretty straight forward concept, I just disagree with the way the environmental/ big govt types are reacting to that truth. I have argued with some of them before, and they would say that humans are intelligent enough to constrain ourselves before the natural controls force us to. I just don't agree with their faith in large group/ Big Govt/ World Govt "solutions".

I am curious to yours and others opinions on these ideas.


I know man does pollute, it would be naive to deny it. However, Al Gore and is theories are OFF THE WALL and aren't supported by the majority of climatologists and geologists. With that being said, I see serious problems with pollution. For example, the flouridation of water, chlorine additives and MTBEs, to name but a few, will continue to have negative health effects on humans. Also, H, I see GMOs as being a Pandors'a Box with disastrous consequences.
Highstreet
QUOTE(TruthTrekker @ Apr 30 2007, 04:35 PM) [snapback]299137[/snapback]

I know man does pollute, it would be naive to deny it. However, Al Gore and is theories are OFF THE WALL and aren't supported by the majority of climatologists and geologists. With that being said, I see serious problems with pollution. For example, the flouridation of water, chlorine additives and MTBEs, to name but a few, will continue to have negative health effects on humans. Also, H, I see GMOs as being a Pandors'a Box with disastrous consequences.


That's why I don't advocate any of his "solutions", as I said they have to be pretty arrogant to think they can control a world full of people who all want to live like us.

You have a good list started there. I would add a few like pesticides, insecticides, and fungicides, murcury from coal processing, Benzine, and plastics in anything touching our food supply. Did you see the thread I started in the Economy section? Please post any articles about the things you brought up.
Highstreet
QUOTE(Tom Servo @ Apr 30 2007, 11:49 AM) [snapback]299088[/snapback]

Something that both Erlich and the enviro-Moonies seemingly refuse to acknowledge is that technology doesn't stand still. To the point that it often happens that many of these supposed problems get resolved on the fly.


SOME of the pollution ones have been. However, the basic concept is sound. Food, Fuel (unless we find the dilithium crystal), and Water are all finite.

Your comment speaks to something that has come up quite often in conversations that I have had in the past year. Because of the last century of consistently increasing energy, this has enabled consistent growth in the economy and technology. We have grown to accept it as part of reality, not something that is an anomoly in the history of our species. It has become an "entitlement" mentality among the last couple generations (the ones who didn't experience the Great Depression).

I have even read some articles that speak of it as the new religion in the western world. Faith in Progress.

We could start a whole thread on this, it really has little to do with AGW.
Highstreet
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Apr 30 2007, 12:01 PM) [snapback]299090[/snapback]

For one thing richer and better educated populations tend to pollute less and have less children. I figure that's a good starting point. Then rich nations might be able to add some enticements to the polluters. It's like everything else, once you can afford the basics, THEN you can start worrying about the niceties like cleaner this and that.


The less children part is true. The pollute less part is not unless you are talking about the new Bush admin number called "Intensity", which means pollution per GDP.

In amount of pollution per country and per Capita, Western countries lead the way with China and India racing to catch up.

I would like to see the "enticement", "tax incentives" and generally POSITIVE path to get polluters and us to move more quickly to take control of our own energy needs. Personally, I don't like being on the Grid, letting them gouge me anytime they want.

The "bringing the rest of the world up to our standard of living" is an idea I agree with. However, it has been the "FREE TRADE" (read: Globalist) reasoning from the get go of GATT, NAFTA, WTO, etc. And despite it being honorable, it is wholly unrealistic. In order for them to have what we have, we would need 3 to 5 Earths worth of natural resources, with the current population staying flat (which it won't).
Tom Servo
QUOTE(Highstreet @ Apr 30 2007, 05:01 PM) [snapback]299167[/snapback]

SOME of the pollution ones have been. However, the basic concept is sound. Food, Fuel (unless we find the dilithium crystal), and Water are all finite.

Your comment speaks to something that has come up quite often in conversations that I have had in the past year. Because of the last century of consistently increasing energy, this has enabled consistent growth in the economy and technology. We have grown to accept it as part of reality, not something that is an anomoly in the history of our species. It has become an "entitlement" mentality among the last couple generations (the ones who didn't experience the Great Depression).

I have even read some articles that speak of it as the new religion in the western world. Faith in Progress.

We could start a whole thread on this, it really has little to do with AGW.

I disagree that the basic concept is sound. Otherwise, Erlich would've won at least one of the bets that he made, that his dire predictions would come to pass. The same can be said of the late John Kenneth Galbraith. It seems that there will always be a market for quasi-nihilist doom and gloom, no matter how often and thoroughly the doomsayers end up being wrong.

As for faith in progress, there's vastly more evidence to support it, than there is in the sort of Terminator mindset that holds man's ingenuity and inventiveness as its own eventual downfall. Personally, I find such attitudes more akin to those of the cultish anti-technology Luddites than anything else.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Highstreet @ Apr 30 2007, 04:21 PM) [snapback]299178[/snapback]


The less children part is true. The pollute less part is not unless you are talking about the new Bush admin number called "Intensity", which means pollution per GDP.


Production for the good of humanity is just part of advancement. A doctor driving to work is probably more beneficial per part of pollution than a Chinese cooking breakfast on coal, but I do agree with the general point.

QUOTE
The "bringing the rest of the world up to our standard of living" is an idea I agree with. However, it has been the "FREE TRADE" (read: Globalist) reasoning from the get go of GATT, NAFTA, WTO, etc. And despite it being honorable, it is wholly unrealistic. In order for them to have what we have, we would need 3 to 5 Earths worth of natural resources, with the current population staying flat (which it won't).


Then something's gotta give. When socialist/liberals point that out to me I remind them of their egalitarian stance on the American economy. I guess that won't work with you. laugh.gif

I guess the bottom line has to be winners and losers on any level.
Tom Servo
QUOTE(Highstreet @ Apr 30 2007, 05:21 PM) [snapback]299178[/snapback]

The less children part is true. The pollute less part is not unless you are talking about the new Bush admin number called "Intensity", which means pollution per GDP.

In amount of pollution per country and per Capita, Western countries lead the way with China and India racing to catch up.
Well, that only follows, as those countries are also responsible for the lion's share of global capital production.

QUOTE(Highstreet @ Apr 30 2007, 05:21 PM) [snapback]299178[/snapback]
I would like to see the "enticement", "tax incentives" and generally POSITIVE path to get polluters and us to move more quickly to take control of our own energy needs. Personally, I don't like being on the Grid, letting them gouge me anytime they want.

Pish posh to social engineering via the tax code.

Better would be to declare the grid a right-of-way (reimbursing those who put it in place for their efforts and materials, of course) and giving the small-time tinkerers and inventors access to the energy creation marketplace.

QUOTE(Highstreet @ Apr 30 2007, 05:21 PM) [snapback]299178[/snapback]
The "bringing the rest of the world up to our standard of living" is an idea I agree with. However, it has been the "FREE TRADE" (read: Globalist) reasoning from the get go of GATT, NAFTA, WTO, etc. And despite it being honorable, it is wholly unrealistic. In order for them to have what we have, we would need 3 to 5 Earths worth of natural resources, with the current population staying flat (which it won't).
Disagree as many, if not most, of those resources are either renewable or recyclable.
Highstreet
QUOTE(Tom Servo @ Apr 30 2007, 07:28 PM) [snapback]299180[/snapback]

I disagree that the basic concept is sound. Otherwise, Erlich would've won at least one of the bets that he made, that his dire predictions would come to pass. The same can be said of the late John Kenneth Galbraith. It seems that there will always be a market for quasi-nihilist doom and gloom, no matter how often and thoroughly the doomsayers end up being wrong.

As for faith in progress, there's vastly more evidence to support it, than there is in the sort of Terminator mindset that holds man's ingenuity and inventiveness as its own eventual downfall. Personally, I find such attitudes more akin to those of the cultish anti-technology Luddites than anything else.


I haven't studied Erlich as much as the Club of Rome, and a little of Malthus. And I don't think that just because their particular "estimate" for WHEN things would happen is mistaken, proves that the basic idea is wrong.

Do you agree that we live on a finite world?
Highstreet
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Apr 30 2007, 07:30 PM) [snapback]299181[/snapback]

Production for the good of humanity is just part of advancement. A doctor driving to work is probably more beneficial per part of pollution than a Chinese cooking breakfast on coal, but I do agree with the general point.
Then something's gotta give. When socialist/liberals point that out to me I remind them of their egalitarian stance on the American economy. I guess that won't work with you. laugh.gif

I guess the bottom line has to be winners and losers on any level.


So let's take it a step further. Does the Good of Humanity include VOLUNTARILY doing what each of us find is desirable to preserve it for our children?

I think I agree with the winners/ losers. At least on the Macro level, it seems to be a Zero Sum game.
Tom Servo
QUOTE(Highstreet @ Apr 30 2007, 08:28 PM) [snapback]299208[/snapback]

I haven't studied Erlich as much as the Club of Rome, and a little of Malthus. And I don't think that just because their particular "estimate" for WHEN things would happen is mistaken, proves that the basic idea is wrong.

Do you agree that we live on a finite world?

The problem with Malthus, Erlich, Galbraith, et al, is that their projections on the dynamic future were limited by their current understandings of how things operate, which were static to their particular moments in time. As far as the Club of Rome is concerned, I find them no more credible than the CFR, UN, WTO, IMF, or any of the other internationalist/globalist organizations that are ostensibly interested in the well-being of mankind.

That the world is "finite" or not goes beyond sketchy and vague. Are there some finite and relatively scarce resources and commodities?...Of course! Things like land and precious metals wouldn't hold their relative values if they weren't. But it's what people do and produce with those resources that counts in the end. In that case, wealth and the human creativity necessary to create it are infinite.

QUOTE(Highstreet @ Apr 30 2007, 08:42 PM) [snapback]299209[/snapback]

So let's take it a step further. Does the Good of Humanity include VOLUNTARILY doing what each of us find is desirable to preserve it for our children?
How does one go about helping their chilluns by holding themselves back?

QUOTE(Highstreet @ Apr 30 2007, 08:42 PM) [snapback]299209[/snapback]
I think I agree with the winners/ losers. At least on the Macro level, it seems to be a Zero Sum game.
Maybe based upon your own subjective criteria as to what constitutes value, or not, but there are also about 5 billion other people out there with equally varying and subjective criteria.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Highstreet @ Apr 30 2007, 07:42 PM) [snapback]299209[/snapback]


So let's take it a step further. Does the Good of Humanity include VOLUNTARILY doing what each of us find is desirable to preserve it for our children?

I think I agree with the winners/ losers. At least on the Macro level, it seems to be a Zero Sum game.


I think most people are willing to do some desireable things as they see them. Gore figures flying around in a private jet to promote his carbon offset business is desireable, and I figure saving brown water and only cooling and heating where necessary is desireable. I'd feel like a heel doing things his way, but I must admit having a mansion and some sycophants to fill it on weekends and New Years Eve would be a hoot.

I think it's a little more than zero-sum. Otherwise the world would get poorer as it got more populated.
Highstreet
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ May 1 2007, 12:15 AM) [snapback]299219[/snapback]

I think most people are willing to do some desireable things as they see them. Gore figures flying around in a private jet to promote his carbon offset business is desireable, and I figure saving brown water and only cooling and heating where necessary is desireable. I'd feel like a heel doing things his way, but I must admit having a mansion and some sycophants to fill it on weekends and New Years Eve would be a hoot.

I think it's a little more than zero-sum. Otherwise the world would get poorer as it got more populated.


Gore's a real schmuck in the "lead by example" area.

From the research I have done, we do seem to be getting poorer, less energy per capita, less food per capita. We are beginning to see the rollover on some of these resources.
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