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Bee
Making out Earle to be partisan will be a hard sell. He'd better get Karl Rove to help.
Human Ills
I believe it already.
Arturo_Vandelay
Better yet, DeLay got the attorney that kicked Earle's ass last time out.

The story is getting out now how Earle tried to ruin Hutchinson, then dropped the case at the last minute and used the press to get the remnants of his case out.

You'd think it would be smarter NOT to tell everyone you were out to get another party's leader.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Sep 28 2005, 08:18 PM)
Better yet, DeLay got the attorney that kicked Earle's ass last time out.

The story is getting out now how Earle tried to ruin Hutchinson, then dropped the case at the last minute and used the press to get the remnants of his case out.

You'd think it would be smarter NOT to tell everyone you were out to get another party's leader.
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But Earle's not partisan. rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif
Arturo_Vandelay
I just watched DickMo on Fox. He said DeLay probably did it. Both parties did it. Earle is too political. And it's SOP all the way around.

Sounds about right. No saints, only sinners.
davisął
We promise in this Contract with America to return ethics to DC.
Arturo_Vandelay
Good thing Dems never promised anything of the sort.
davisął
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Sep 28 2005, 08:40 PM)
Good thing Dems never promised anything of the sort.
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Let's not hold any of them accountable for any reason.

Cash in at will boys, ethics means - 0 -.

SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(davisął @ Sep 28 2005, 08:53 PM)
Let's not hold any of them accountable for any reason.

Cash in at will boys, ethics means - 0 -.
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Oh stoppit, Davis.

The everybody does it defense is enshrined in the Constitution.
Arturo_Vandelay
But you two only get to use it half the time.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Sep 28 2005, 05:40 PM)
Good thing Dems never promised anything of the sort.
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Right, when did they?
Bee
QUOTE
Market Place
  What Did Bill Frist Know and How?

By FLOYD NORRIS
Published: September 29, 2005
DID Senator Bill Frist violate insider trading laws when he sold his stake in HCA Inc., the hospital chain that his father helped found?

That question has led to inquiries from the Securities and Exchange Commission and the Justice Department, and a complaint to the Senate Ethics Committee. It is impossible to know what those inquiries will turn up, but so far there is no information on the public record that would indicate violations of the laws.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said Monday there was no wrong doing when shares of HCA Inc. were sold one month before a poor earnings report sent the stock falling.

Mr. Frist, a physician and the Republican leader of the Senate, has said that he ordered the sale to avoid any appearance of a conflict of interest, adding that he was "looking ahead at my final years in the Senate and what might come next." That appeared to be a reference to his consideration of running for president in 2008.

News articles after the sale was first reported noted that Mr. Frist appeared to have sold close to the top of the market for HCA shares in June, and that the stock later fell after the company reported poor earnings.

At the time Mr. Frist sold his shares, several insiders at HCA also sold. Mr. Frist has said he began the process in April, a time when there were also insider sales. He has not said whether those sales influenced his decision. But if the public reports of any of those sales played a role in persuading him to sell, that would be perfectly legal.

The law requires disclosure of insider sales in part to inform investors of such trades, and, as part of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, Congress required in 2002 that such disclosures be made within days of the actual sale.

To make a case against Mr. Frist, investigators would have to find evidence that he had access to material, nonpublic information and that such information influenced the decision to sell.


"If there is evidence of communication between him and the corporation," that could damage the senator's position, said Joel Seligman, the president of the University of Rochester and the author of a history of the S.E.C. If there is no such evidence, he added, then Mr. Frist is unlikely to have a problem.

Mr. Frist has denied having inside information. To prove he had such information, investigators would have to either find a document, such as an e-mail message, or obtain testimony from the person who gave him that information.

That person, if he or she exists, could face prosecution as well, and would probably not come forward voluntarily. In many insider trading cases, the S.E.C. is able to make a case against one defendant, who may have told others of having inside information, and then persuade that person to testify against others, in hopes of getting a lighter penalty.

Thus it is unlikely that Mr. Frist would face charges alone. Instead, a prosecution seems possible only if someone else is caught and chooses to testify against him. That would be likely only if investigators find others to have engaged in illegal trading of HCA shares.

In the past, some people suspected of insider trading have faced legal problems not because their trades could be proved to be illegal but because explanations they gave turned out to be lies. Defense lawyers generally urge clients to keep quiet, in part to avoid such a risk, but silence may not be a reasonable option for a politician.

As a point of law, Mr. Frist could be innocent even if it were shown that he traded on the basis of material, nonpublic information. Under court rulings, it would also have to be shown that an insider violated his duty to the company by disclosing the information to the senator.

For example, if the senator's brother, a former HCA chairman who is still a director, had accidentally left a confidential document out at a family gathering, there might be no violation by a relative who saw the document and sold stock because of what he had learned. Such a defense, while it might work in court, could be highly damaging politically.

Mr. Seligman, the S.E.C. historian, pointed to one case the S.E.C. lost in court in 1984, involving Barry Switzer, then the University of Oklahoma football coach. A judge believed that Mr. Switzer had overheard, at a track meet, a conversation between a corporate insider and his wife, and that the insider had not realized Mr. Switzer was listening. In that case, the insider had not breached his duty through the accidental disclosure, and Mr. Switzer therefore could legally trade on the information.

It may not be true that Mr. Frist is facing these investigations only because he is a prominent politician. Any well-timed sale by a relative of a corporate director, made shortly before bad news is disclosed, might attract S.E.C. interest. But in normal circumstances there would be no publicity regarding such inquiries unless they led to action by the commission or the Justice Department. In this case, however, Mr. Frist chose to disclose the fact he was being questioned.
http://select.nytimes.com/2005/09/29/busin...lace.html?8hpib
davisął
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Sep 28 2005, 09:00 PM)
Oh stoppit, Davis.

The everybody does it defense is enshrined in the Constitution.
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Damn it space, don't make me come to luna and start whoopin' arse. laugh.gif
davisął
You know Republicans always diss lawyers but everything they do needs to be cleared with a lawyer to see if it's even ethical. Then, when they find something quite profitable but over the line they set up one of these plausible deniability scams to keep from doing time. More lawyers.

Morals and values.
davisął
I've read about some of this. They had a hell of a system set up. Biiiig money.


Former Illinois Governor's Trial Begins

Ryan Is Charged With Profiting From State Contracts Steered to Friends

By Peter Slevin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 29, 2005; Page A02

CHICAGO, Sept. 28 -- With the power to sign government leases and dole out contracts, former Illinois governor George H. Ryan illegally steered business to his friends and cash to his family for more than a decade, a federal prosecutor charged Wednesday.

Once the scheme was in place, the onetime pharmacist from Kankakee began to appear with rolls of $100 bills in his pocket, Assistant U.S. Attorney Zachary T. Fardon told a 12-member jury. He said Ryan took free trips to Las Vegas and Jamaica, several times pretending to pay for the lodging at a friend's villa with a check, only to be repaid in cash.


"The fix was in in Illinois state government," Fardon said at the start of what is expected to be a four-month public corruption trial.

Ryan, best known as the Republican governor who lost faith in capital punishment and commuted the death sentences of 167 inmates in 2003, contends he is "absolutely not guilty." Between speeches to cheering anti-death-penalty audiences, he publicly protests his innocence, saying the government cannot prove he profited.

"The state of Illinois didn't get cheated out of anything," defense attorney Dan Webb told the jury. "Providing benefits to supporters is part of politics and is not a crime."

Webb, who likened Ryan's favors to the presidential practice of awarding ambassadorships to fundraisers and friends, chose not to address some of the most potentially damning evidence.
He focused his fire on several contract deals and the credibility of the government's principal witness, former Ryan chief of staff Scott Fawell.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5092802269.html
davisął
The Hammer takes a hit
TOM DELAY HAS BEEN so intellectually dishonest for so long that news that he may have been criminally dishonest hardly comes as a surprise. The question now is how much worse the political culture will become before it can get better.

DeLay's indictment on a single count of conspiracy to violate state election laws has drawn predictable reactions from Democrats and his fellow Republicans. Democrats are enjoying the spectacle of one of the most partisan majority leaders the House has ever known losing his position. (Party rules require DeLay to resign as majority leader, but he can keep his House seat.) Republicans claim that their onetime leader is the victim of a political vendetta. Through it all, DeLay has remained his grandiose self, calling the charge "one of the weakest, most baseless indictments in American history."


So anyone who hoped that the indictment would change the capital's political culture can forget it. DeLay's troubles also continue something of a tradition, dating at least to former Democratic Speaker Jim Wright of Texas, of ethical lapses among those in the leadership of the House.

But the real scandal in Washington, as someone once said, isn't what's illegal, it's what's legal. DeLay has practically made a career out of testing the boundaries on ethics — and going far beyond them politically. The House Ethics Committee knows him on a first-name basis, having admonished him three times in the last year for activity that stretches back more than four years. The Texas grand jury that indicted him on Wednesday has been investigating possible legal violations by DeLay and his associates for months.

Yet DeLay is more than the sum of his ethical lapses. He also has a long history of hypocrisy. During the Clinton administration, he criticized the bombing of Kosovo, saying that U.S. foreign policy was "formulated by the Unabomber"; six years later he chastised Democrats for criticizing U.S. policy in Iraq, saying they were "putting American lives at risk." His calls for the federal government to play a smaller role in Americans' lives were betrayed by his demands that it intervene in the case of Terri Schiavo.

Hypocrisy is the occupational hazard of politics. DeLay, however, is a special case, a partisan so unprincipled that not even his allies pretend that he stands for anything; his nickname, "The Hammer," comes from his ability to enforce party discipline. DeLay's indictment will lead to an increase in demagoguery on both sides of the aisle. But the real problem isn't what DeLay may have done, it's what he stands for.


http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editor...ment-editorials
Human Ills
a one count indictment?
inyerface
The myth of competence in the Bush White House
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article.php?s...=nested&order=0
davisął
user posted image
davisął
user posted image
Friend Judy
A little recital of the facts of the DeLay indictment:

QUOTE
Because DeLay's defenders want to gloss over the facts, it's important to understand the specifics of the indictment brought by Ronnie Earle, the Democratic district attorney in Travis County. The charges offer a fine summary of how the new machine politics works.

DeLay and two associates are accused of raising $155,000 from six corporations for a special political action committee he established, Texans for a Republican Majority. The PAC, in turn, wrote a check for $190,000 to the Republican National State Elections Committee.

The national committee turned around and made contributions to seven candidates in the 2002 state legislative elections in Texas. How did the national group know whom to help? According to the indictment, a DeLay associate provided Terry Nelson, the Republican official who received the check, with a list of candidates to support and the amounts they were to receive.

Why go to all this trouble? Because corporate contributions are illegal in races in Texas, so the corporate money needed to be laundered. The point of the exercise was to win a Republican majority in the Texas Legislature so DeLay could execute his plan to redraw congressional district boundaries, knock out Democratic incumbents and pad his majority in the House with five new Republicans.

DeLay insists he did nothing illegal, but even if he wins the case, the core facts speak to the hubris of the new machine politics. Drawing congressional district lines for political purposes is an old story, but DeLay went a step further. He got the Texas Legislature to toss out a congressional map that had been drawn only two years earlier, an unprecedented act of political gamesmanship.

The corporations that forked over the cash to DeLay's PAC did so not because their hearts were filled with affection for those particular Texas legislative candidates but because they recognized DeLay's power over federal legislation. It put an innovative gloss on one of the oldest rules in politics: Power begets money, which begets more power, which begets more money.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5092902662.html


Now, DeLay's defense against this is that he consulted lawyers before establishing TRMPAC, the purpose of which was to do exactly what was done, and was assured that this work-around of the clear intent of the law (no corporate money to Texas legislative candidates) was legal.

Even if he wins acquittal based on his claim that he was assured that this method of evading the clear intent of the law was legal, he's still stuck with the reality that it was LOUSY ethics, a shame and a scandal, even if it was, by the thinnest of hairs, not criminal.

Between this and his association with Abramoff, not to mention the 3-hour 3 a.m. vote, he's become a liability to the party. And considering his arm-twisting and, um, lack of personal charm, he's made many enemies within the party. They may be making a grand show right now for the media, hollering "partisan prosecution", but the man ain't loved even within his own party, and has few actual "friends", just folk in the leadership who've found him useful. No matter how the prosecution comes out, he's now radioactive, and won't be regaining his power in the party.
davisął
You know, I would have thought so before Bush, but the Republicans have become so arrogant with power nothing surprises me anymore.
Mizilus
Its funny to hear that buttscoot libby is one of the ones who outed Valerie Plame. I wonder why it took so long for him to give Miller the nod to testify?

How typical of a repuslickan to have someone else do the jail time.

Now watch. All the blame will be put on buttscoot and then these lying pieces of sh_t will expect us to believe that (CHACHING!!) cheney, AWOL, and turdblossam had no idea what he was doing. He acted all by his lonesome (ROFLMFAO!) and of course he wont go to prison or anything.
SpaceCowboy
Good thing the prez didn't put out one of those wanted dead or alive deals on the leaker.

user posted image
Friend Judy
QUOTE
Ethical questions raised over House's new majority leaderRep. Blunt hired the consulting firm of DeLay associate who is also named in the indictment
By MARY CURTIUS
Los Angeles Times

WASHINGTON - House Republicans struggled Thursday to regain their political balance, one day after House Majority Leader Tom DeLay relinquished his leadership position after being indicted by a grand jury in his home state of Texas.

As he worked to unite the party and turn its attention back to the legislative agenda, Rep. Roy Blunt of Missouri, DeLay's successor as majority leader, faced ethics questions himself.

Records on file with the Federal Election Commission show that since 2003, Blunt's political action committee has paid $94,000 in salary to the consulting firm of Jim Ellis, a long-time associate of DeLay. Ellis has been indicted in the same case as DeLay, accused of conspiring to illegally influence the outcome of Texas legislative elections by channeling corporate money to Republican candidates.


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Friend Judy
QUOTE
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-kstreet30sep30,0,1685864.story?coll=la-home-headlines

DeLay Helped Cement GOP Ties to Lobbyists
His pressure helped turn business groups into a key part of the party's political machine.

By Tom Hamburger and Peter Wallsten, Times Staff Writers


WASHINGTON — Whether or not Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas) returns to power, few industry lobbyists in the nation's capital are likely to forget the lesson he once taught the electronic manufacturers: Support the Republican Party — or else.

That industry felt DeLay's wrath in the fall of 1998, when one of its leading trade associations hired a Democrat as its top lobbyist. DeLay and his staff temporarily blocked one of the industry's favorite measures from coming to a vote.

His slap at the Electronic Industries Alliance led to a private reprimand from the House Ethics Committee, and even some Republicans called his approach heavy-handed. But DeLay was not deterred.

And the beleaguered former House majority leader has left a lasting mark on the capital: turning the Washington lobbying establishment into a critical cog of the Republican political machine.

Seven years after the dust-up with the electronics group, many on K Street — home to Washington's network of business associations and lobbying shops — believe they can no longer divide political contributions evenly between the parties. Instead, they see their success in Congress riding more on how hard they work to provide money and political muscle to the Republican Party and its quest for a long-lasting conservative majority.

Although DeLay's indictment this week on a Texas campaign finance charge renews questions about the ethics of mixing corporate interests and electoral politics, his well-cemented relationship with business is likely to benefit the GOP into the future.

"DeLay deserves credit for bringing about a significant change" in the way Washington works, said Richard Hohlt, a veteran lobbyist for banking and other interests. "It takes a whip and a chair to control K Street, and DeLay had both and used them," said Hohlt.

"He was the tip of the spear," said Stuart Roy, a former DeLay aide who now works as a consultant. "Before we were in the majority, the Republican leadership was reticent" to go too far in telling trade groups what to do, he said. "Now it is the mind-set of the leadership: If you are supposed to be pro-business, that should be reflected in your political giving and your political activity."

Indeed, although DeLay's indictment Wednesday forced him to step down, at least temporarily, as House majority leader, the same view of K Street has been adopted by the person replacing him in that role, Rep. Roy Blunt (R-Mo.). Blunt was assigned by DeLay several years ago to take over the monitoring of K Street, and some lobbyists say he has surpassed DeLay in getting businesses to mobilize on behalf of the conservative agenda.

The revolution in corporate behavior began with the Republican takeover of Congress in 1994, when DeLay was among the most outspoken of several GOP leaders demanding that business groups support the party — not only by contributing to Republican campaigns but by helping GOP leaders round up voters and selecting party faithful to run trade associations.

When the National Assn. of Securities Dealers hired a former Clinton administration official, John Hilley, as a vice president in 1998, DeLay told the industry publication Traders Magazine that the hiring was a "very big mistake."

"For an organization to hire a highly partisan Democrat gives me great concern, because I won't deal with such organizations," he said. (Hilley stayed and was later promoted.)

Now, prominent Republicans head some of the city's most influential trade groups: Former Michigan Gov. John Engler leads the National Assn. of Manufacturers, and former Commerce Secretary Don Evans, a friend of President Bush, runs the Financial Services Forum. Marc Racicot, a former Montana governor who was once chairman of the Republican National Committee, leads the American Insurance Assn.

Lobbyists who have their offices in the glass-and-steel buildings that line K Street say that DeLay's effort has had real impact.

Many of the Republicans who have taken lobbying and trade association jobs recently owe their positions to GOP benefactors in Congress. About two dozen former DeLay staffers work as lobbyists. In these jobs, they often have access to funds they can use as donations to campaigns and conservative causes. The corporate world also supplies contacts in congressional districts that can help Republican candidates with grass-roots campaigns.

The Bush administration has sought to take advantage of these ties in building unified support for judicial nominees, the president's Social Security proposal and, more recently, immigration overhaul — issues that in the past did not draw much trade association activity. DeLay and other GOP leaders used business contacts to push for passage in 2003 of the new Medicare prescription drug benefit, which was a priority of the pharmaceutical industry.

Before Republicans won control of the executive and legislative branches in 2000, Washington lobbying had been studiously bipartisan. Contributions from many industry groups were close to evenly divided between Republicans and Democrats.

But DeLay and his allies had been working several years to change that. To keep pressure on businesses to shift toward the GOP, DeLay and his allies in 1995 compiled a list of the 300 or so largest business-affiliated political action committees, along with a breakdown of their campaign donations by party. Lobbyists were told their ranking, and DeLay pressed those low on the list to give more to Republicans. Over time, contribution patterns changed.

The accounting profession, for example, gave more than half of its campaign donations to Democrats in 1994. So far this year, 71% has gone to Republicans, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, a nonpartisan research organization. The insurance industry increased the share of donations to Republicans from 55% to 68% in the past decade. Energy interests increased the share going to Republicans from 64% in 1994 to 75% a decade later.

To monitor business hiring in Washington, DeLay and conservative activist Grover Norquist launched the "K Street Project," which tracks K Street jobs and who fills them.

Norquist assigns a full-time staffer to keep up with hiring changes, which are then posted on a website. This week, for example, the site says that a liquor manufacturer has tapped a new corporate affairs chief who has made contributions to Democrats, including Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.). A separate item reports that a Washington lobbying firm has promoted an executive who had donated to the Bush-Cheney 2004 campaign fund.

Norquist said House and Senate GOP leaders consulted the database to review hiring decisions by K Street firms.

There are cases when firms hire Democrats for top jobs. But they often pay a price.

Last year, conservatives fumed when the Motion Picture Assn. of America hired Bill Clinton's former Agriculture secretary, Dan Glickman, to run its Washington office. Afterward, Republicans removed tax-relief provisions for the film industry from a pending tax bill. Later, Glickman hired prominent Republicans, including a senior aide to House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert.

The electronics alliance in 1998 learned there was a cost to hiring a former Democratic lawmaker, but it was not fatal to the alliance's interests. Its legislation eventually passed, and it kept the Democrat as its top lobbyist.

A campaign finance activist, Fred Wertheimer, president of Democracy 21, agreed that DeLay's approach had penetrated deeply.

"It is a reality in the psyche of Washington lobbyists," he said.

But Wertheimer said he believed the indictment of DeLay and a separate investigation of a DeLay friend, lobbyist Jack Abramoff, could lead to an abrupt change in that way of thinking.

DeLay's efforts, he said, "have institutionalized a process of public officials demanding private companies hire lobbyists of their choice, and lobbyists must be required to pay in return. But that system under DeLay's leadership has become so blatant and brazen that I do not expect it to last in its current form."


The GOP needs to brace itself. There's gonna be a lot of this sort of stuff being brought to public attention. If they have any brains, they'll turn DeLay into a scapegoat by spring.

(Posted in full because so many of you hate registering with the spammy LA Times.)
beasty
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Sep 30 2005, 01:16 PM)
The GOP needs to brace itself.  There's gonna be a lot of this sort of stuff being brought to public attention.  If they have any brains, they'll turn DeLay into a scapegoat by spring.


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Is it REALLY a good idea to let the enemy force you into tossing your people overboard whenever they please? It's obviously been politicallly coordinated, Earle TOLD THEM AHEAD OF TIME he was going to get DeLay, and the Dems were ready to get out the word for fundraising purposes the SAME DAY.

If Democrats at least had the class to wait and see what EVIDENCE the indictment concerned it wouldn't look like a purely politcal setup. Planned and coordinated in Washington and not Texas.
Friend Judy
Maybe, maybe not. So far the only actual "defense" I've heard from DeLay (other than the "it's all political" squalling) has been that the prosecutor won't be able to prove intent to commit a crime because he consulted lawyers who told him the scheme was legal.

He's not making any bones about the money NOT having been laundered through the RNC to evade Texas laws against corporate donations to state legislature candidates.

So can the "it's all political" bull. Of course it's political, as was DeLay's scheme. And DeLay has done what he's accused of doing. The only thing in dispute is criminal intent, not scuzzy politics.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Sep 30 2005, 02:50 PM)
Maybe, maybe not.  So far the only actual "defense" I've heard from DeLay (other than the "it's all political" squalling) has been that the prosecutor won't be able to prove intent to commit a crime because he consulted lawyers who told him the scheme was legal.

He's not making any bones about the money NOT having been laundered through the RNC to evade Texas laws against corporate donations to state legislature candidates.


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Have you read the indictment? What exactly is the charge and where is the evidence? How do you mount a defense against an indictment that doesn't even mentioin your name?

QUOTE
Of course it's political, as was DeLay's scheme.


In which case should it be criminal? If DAs start going after political enemies as a matter of standard practice are we really going to have a better poltical system?

Bear in mind DeLay IS a politician. Earle is supposed to be an officer of the court.
Friend Judy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Sep 30 2005, 04:13 PM)
Have you read the indictment?

Yes.
QUOTE
What exactly is the charge and where is the evidence?


The charge is criminal conspiracy. As far as the evidence, it's attached to the other indictments: Checks from corporations to the TRMPAC, and the check from TRMPAC to the RNC sent at the same time and accompanied by a matching list of donations and amounts to be made to Texas legislative candidates. There is no dispute, by anyone, that the checks were collected, aggregated, sent to Washington and re-disbursed to the legislative candidates per TRMPAC's instructions.

It's also hard to argue that DeLay wasn't the brains behind TRMPAC; we've all seen him on C-SPAN bragging about his cleverness on the subject. But if you want MORE evidence, there was DeLay's lawyer on CNN early this afternoon assuring the anchor that DeLay had consulted lawyers before founding TRMPAC, and therefore DeLay believed the arrangement was legal, so he had no criminal intent.

"Criminal intent" would be a matter for Texas law and a Texas jury, but there's no one denying anything at all about the checks being given and received, nor that the idea was to get around the Texas law.

DeLay isn't claiming he didn't do it, AV. He's claiming it wasn't a crime.

QUOTE
How do you mount a defense against an indictment that doesn't even mentioin your name?


One goes to court in October and demands a showing of the evidence. (Sooner, if he wants to exercise his right to a speedy trial.)

QUOTE
In which case should it be criminal? If DAs start going after political enemies as a matter of standard practice are we really going to have a better poltical system?

Bear in mind DeLay IS a politician. Earle is supposed to be an officer of the court.
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"In which case should it be criminal" would be a matter of Texas law and how Texas law defines conspiracy and intent, no? Since there's no dispute about the events that transpired, and no dispute that the plan to get money from corporations to legislature candidates was DeLay's?

(See http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...=la-home-nation for background on evidence and related cases.)
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Sep 30 2005, 03:56 PM)


DeLay isn't claiming he didn't do it, AV.  He's claiming it wasn't a crime.

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So, is it a crime, and if it is are there going to be more indictments?

Is it a conspiracy for Earle to tell Dems he's going to get DeLay and then focus on him for an indictment?

I need to know because every time one of these things comes up I find it's been excused many times before and suddenly becomes criminal and front page news when certain people become the targets. I heard that a week or so ago the prosecutor had told DeLay's lawyer that there wasn't going to be an indictment. Makes me wonder what the rest of the story is.
Friend Judy
First, there have already BEEN other indictments. The other two named in the DeLay indictment (the two other alleged conspirators) have already been indicted for money laundering, and some of the corporations who originally gave the money have already been indicted (and pled guilty, and paid fines) for violating the Texas campaign finance laws. You apparently just weren't paying attention.

It didn't "suddenly" become criminal, IMO. What appears to have happened recently is some sort of fairly new evidence of either "conspiring" (which could be something like one of the money launderers saying DeLay phoned him and told him to add a name to the list or something--an act in furtherance of the conspiracy), or evidence of "intent" (that DeLay knew or reasonably should have known that the scheme was illegal under Texas law, which could be as small as a joke about paying a fine if they get caught).

I don't know right now, and neither does anyone else, though a plea bargain by one of the participants seems most likely.

You're still dancing around the central question: Forget "legal", and just tell me if you think this plan to swap illegal money for legal money was ethical?
Nomarchy
QUOTE
So can the "it's all political" bull. Of course it's political, as was DeLay's scheme. And DeLay has done what he's accused of doing. The only thing in dispute is criminal intent, not scuzzy politics.


Yeah, like he's going to be deterred. Asking a.v. to can the 'it's all political" stuff is like asking a human to 'can' his/her 'close your eyes while sneezing' automatic response. It's an impossibility.
Friend Judy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Sep 30 2005, 05:03 PM)
Is it a conspiracy for Earle to tell Dems he's going to get DeLay and then focus on him for an indictment?
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I'd say no, not in this case. DeLay's been running his mouth all over the place about how he cleverly evaded Texas' campaign finance laws. It seems pretty much mandatory for the prosecutor assigned to investigate and prosecute political corruption to then do everything in his power to indict and convict DeLay.

I mean, hell, if you run around going "Nyah nyah nyah, you can't catch me, I found a way around your dumb law, take your law and shove it, everyone take a good look, you can do this with YOUR states' campaign laws too!", it's totally unsurprising that they'd try real hard to catch you. (I mean, DeLay even stipulated to an extension of the statute of limitations on this, so it's not like he was sandbagged.)

I wouldn't be at all surprised if DeLay ends up playing some videotapes of his own bragging speeches as evidence that he did indeed really and truly believe he'd found a legal loophole.

And if you're interested, it happens that I personally DO believe DeLay's (lawyer's) claim that he genuinely and sincerely thought this scheme was legal. DeLay's certainly been ACTING like he believes he found a legal loophole. But we'll see when the evidence of DeLay's private thinking is revealed.
Friend Judy
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Sep 30 2005, 05:34 PM)
Yeah, like he's going to be deterred. Asking a.v. to can the 'it's all political" stuff is like asking a human to 'can' his/her 'close your eyes while sneezing' automatic response. It's an impossibility.
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Far as I can tell, being "political" and being "illegal" aren't mutually exclusive propositions. ABSCAM was pretty darn political, but taking foreign bribes was also pretty damn illegal.

Now, if AV was protesting that it's ONLY political, we'd have something to discuss.
Friend Judy
"WERE protesting". I always forget to use the subjunctive.
Mizilus
GAO says Williams deal violated propaganda ban


By Greg Toppo. USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — Government contracts with commentator Armstrong Williams and others to promote President Bush's education reform law violated a government ban on "covert propaganda," federal investigators said Friday.

The Bush administration paid columnist Armstrong Williams to promote the president's education agenda.
AP File Photo

The Bush administration had earlier argued that it had merely purchased Williams' services to produce a pair of television ads, but U.S. Education Department spokeswoman Susan Aspey on Friday offered no defense of the $240,000 Williams contract, saying Education Secretary Margaret Spellings has already implemented policies "to ensure these types of missteps don't happen again."

Lawmakers who requested the probe asked that Spellings demand the return of money spent on several public relations contracts — the Government Accountability Office found they amounted to propaganda because the government's role wasn't made clear to viewers or readers.

GAO investigators said records uncovered during the probe show that Williams, a prominent black conservative, actively promoted the No Child Left Behind law, often without revealing that he was under contract to the Education Department to do so.

Monthly reports submitted by Williams' company show that he promoted the law at least 168 times, in syndicated columns, on radio and on TV, in addition to the ads he was paid to produce, the GAO found.

Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., one of two lawmakers who requested the probe, described Friday's report as "another sign of the culture of corruption that pervades the White House and Republican leadership."

"Rather than spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on producing Republican propaganda, the administration should return those funds and live up to the promises they made to America's students and teachers."

Kennedy urged Spellings to "move promptly to implement the GAO's directives and return these taxpayer dollars to the Treasury."

In a statement, Education Department spokeswoman Susan Aspey said, "We've been saying for the past six months that this was stupid, wrong and ill-advised. There's nothing in today's action that changes our opinion. Under Secretary Spellings' leadership, stringent processes have been instituted to ensure these types of missteps don't happen again."

Williams' office did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

GAO investigators on Friday also said a 2003-2004 media analysis paid for by the Education Department, which rated individual reporters' coverage of No Child Left Behind on a 200-point scale, was "within its authority," but a questionable use of taxpayer funds.

The random selection of articles judged whether each contained a "positive or negative message" about No Child Left Behind. It assigned a score based, in part, on the newspaper's circulation.

"Appropriated funds are not available to evaluate the Republican Party's (or any other political party's) commitment to education," said Anthony Gamboa, GAO's general counsel, "and the department should take appropriate steps to ensure that no such use of its appropriations occurs in the future."

Gamboa said a prepackaged "video news release" promoting free tutoring available through No Child Left Behind also constituted covert propaganda because it didn't disclose that it had been produced by the federal government.

The segment, which featured then-Education Secretary Rod Paige, was produced to look like a generic TV news segment. It was narrated by Karen Ryan, a Washington public relations specialist who ended the piece by saying, "In Washington, I'm Karen Ryan reporting."

The media analysis and video news release cost taxpayers $135,272.

In another case, the GAO found that a newspaper article, contracted to the North American Precis Syndicate (NAPS) by the Education Department, and detailing the decline of scientific literacy in schools, also constituted covert propaganda.

Friday's reports, sent to Kennedy and Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., come nearly six months after the Education Department's own inspector general criticized the Williams deal, in which Ketchum Public Relations arranged for him to promote No Child Left Behind on his syndicated TV show — and to encourage others to do the same.

"The Bush Administration took taxpayer funds that should have gone towards helping kids learn and diverted it to a political propaganda campaign," Lautenberg said.

Another internal probe, issued four weeks ago, found that education advocacy organizations had received grants totaling nearly $4.7 million to promote Bush administration education priorities in newspaper columns and brochures without disclosing that they received taxpayer funds, as required by law.

The department's inspector general detected no "covert propaganda" in those contracts, but told administration officials to consider asking for some of the money back.

He said the department needed to do a better job monitoring how millions of dollars are spent.After USA TODAY first reported on the Williams deal last January, several other agencies revealed that freelance commentators wrote pieces promoting Bush administration policies ...




http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/20...rt_x.htm?csp=24
Grigorii
QUOTE(beasty @ Sep 30 2005, 03:17 PM)
Is it REALLY a good idea to let the enemy force you into tossing your people overboard whenever they please? It's obviously been politicallly coordinated, Earle TOLD THEM AHEAD OF TIME he was going to get DeLay, and the Dems were ready to get out the word for fundraising purposes the SAME DAY.

If Democrats at least had the class to wait and see what EVIDENCE the indictment concerned it wouldn't look like a purely politcal setup. Planned and coordinated in Washington and not Texas.
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He sure did and because he knew DeLouse was guilty as sin, If he didn't think he could make the charges stick he would not have said that, IMO. In fact if he didn't have the goods that would have been a foolish remark...Earle doesn’t strike me as a fool...
Friend Judy
Hmm. Interesting thought, beastie.

But let me reframe the question: If you have corrupt people leading your party, should you consider yourself as being "forced" to toss them overboard when they move from merely scuzzy into the realm of 'possibly criminal'?

Should you keep people you probably should have dumped anyway because the other side is "forcing" you? And I don't mean politically, as in scoring points with your base by keeping someone you would have dumped if he'd been less useful.

I mean, MORALLY, should you keep someone you should have dumped just because the opposition is pointing out that he's scum that you should have dumped? Or should you just dump him, and apologize for not having dumped him sooner, and harvest the moral capital of shunning the corrupt?

(Wow, that shunning the corrupt thing would be a 9.0 earthquake in both parties, but particuarly in the current GOP. There goes 1/3 of the Dems, and half the pubbies!)
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Grigorii @ Sep 30 2005, 07:05 PM)
He sure did and because he knew DeLouse was guilty as sin, If he didn't think he could make the charges  stick he would not have said that, IMO. In fact if he didn't have the goods that would have been a foolish remark...Earle doesn’t strike me as a fool...
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And he knows there will be consequences for going up against Delay.

We all know that.
Spot
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Sep 30 2005, 05:20 PM)

(Wow, that shunning the corrupt thing would be a 9.0 earthquake in both parties, but particuarly in the current GOP.  There goes 1/3 of the Dems, and half the pubbies!)
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They have to be replaced with something though. First the earthquake and mass destruction, then the survivors have to rebuild. How can those of us that got so sick of the old system that we chose not to participate get a Spot in the new system?
Friend Judy
Well, you could join me, McCain, and Christie Whitman in trying to form a New Bull Moose Party, to force the GOP to reform and return to small gubmint, balanced budgets, and individual freedom from gubmint intrusion as stated in the Bill of Rights.

Although I'm not so sure about McCain. He's sure got a damn bee in his bonnet about steroids. Since when is professional sports the Senate's beeswax? Johnny, Johnny, take a deep breath. Yes, cheaters sometimes win, and this is one of those times, but get a grip, it's NOT a Federal Crime!
Bee
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Sep 30 2005, 07:26 PM)
It didn't "suddenly" become criminal, IMO.  What appears to have happened recently is some sort of fairly new evidence of either "conspiring" (which could be something like one of the money launderers saying DeLay phoned him and told him to add a name to the list or something--an act in furtherance of the conspiracy), or evidence of "intent" (that DeLay knew or reasonably should have known that the scheme was illegal under Texas law, which could be as small as a joke about paying a fine if they get caught).
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Seems to me that "ignorance" of the Law has never been an excuse to break the law, anyway.

Even if you "consult" your lawyer.

dry.gif
Bee
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Sep 30 2005, 07:34 PM)
Yeah, like he's going to be deterred. Asking a.v. to can the 'it's all political" stuff is like asking a human to 'can' his/her 'close your eyes while sneezing' automatic response. It's an impossibility.
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blink.gif

QUOTE
QUOTE
I have sincere doubts that this is anything but political at this point.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Sep 30 2005, 04:48 PM)
Well, you could join me, McCain, and Christie Whitman in trying to form a New Bull Moose Party, to force the GOP to reform and return to small gubmint, balanced budgets, and individual freedom from gubmint intrusion as stated in the Bill of Rights.

Although I'm not so sure about McCain.  He's sure got a damn bee in his bonnet about steroids.  Since when is professional sports the Senate's beeswax?  Johnny, Johnny, take a deep breath.  Yes, cheaters sometimes win, and this is one of those times, but get a grip, it's NOT a Federal Crime!
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Are you sure it's not? I mean, really, are you sure it's not? 'Cause I think it is.

Think of what MLB gets from the Feds in terms of legal protections and exemptions.

Also, think of the Controlled Substances Act.

Spot
I don't think I could be a Republican no matter how much they changed. But Democrats aren't any better. It's like the only thing they want to give me is an abortion or a paltry check for not working. Neither of which I need.

I just don't see how either party is of any benefit to me.

Friend Judy
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Sep 30 2005, 07:04 PM)
Are you sure it's not? I mean, really, are you sure it's not? 'Cause I think it is.

Think of what MLB gets from the Feds in terms of legal protections and exemptions.

Also, think of the Controlled Substances Act.
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I -am- thinking of the Controlled Substances Act, and thinking that the CSA is unconstitutional, an excessive elasticity of the commerce clause.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Spot @ Sep 30 2005, 05:05 PM)
I don't think I could be a Republican no matter how much they changed. But Democrats aren't any better. It's like the only thing they want to give me is an abortion or a paltry check for not working. Neither of which I need.

I just don't see how either party is of any benefit to me.
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Shpot (said a la Sean Connery),

Have you perchance taken the politicalcompass.org "test"?

It's sorta useful.
Friend Judy
QUOTE(Spot @ Sep 30 2005, 07:05 PM)
I don't think I could be a Republican no matter how much they changed. But Democrats aren't any better. It's like the only thing they want to give me is an abortion or a paltry check for not working. Neither of which I need.

I just don't see how either party is of any benefit to me.
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I don't see how either party is, at present, of benefit to anyone either.

That said, Republicans, pre-1980, used to stand for "fiscal responsibility" (meaning, balanced budgets, you cut spending or raise taxes), limited Federal gubmint (meaning states get to regulate, separately, anything not enumerated in the Constitution as being Federal responsibilities), careful foreign policy, and vigorous resistance to any encroachment on the Bill of Rights.

Is there something in that agenda you can't be on board with?
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Sep 30 2005, 08:07 PM)
I -am- thinking of the Controlled Substances Act, and thinking that the CSA is unconstitutional, an excessive elasticity of the commerce clause.
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It's the law, whether you think it ought to be or not.
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