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Spot
QUOTE(Bee @ Oct 1 2005, 10:12 PM)
No. He didn't say that.

A prosecutors job is to prosecute criminals. That is a given, I'd think. If you re-read with that in mind, you'll see that your assumption was er, off.

wink.gif
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Once again he made a new analogy, and not a very good one. But he stated motivations don't matter. If ones motivations make prosecution selective I think they do matter.
SherryB
A different theory on Fitzgeralds investigation of Plamegate.




Senior Administration Officials Could Be Charged With Criminal Conspiracy
The public defense of both Karl Rove and Scooter Libby in the CIA leak scandal have focused on the specific claim they didn’t know Valerie Plame’s name. Even if that’s true, it doesn’t mean anyone is off the hook.

If Patrick Fitzgerald is unable to prove a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, Rove, Libby and others could still be charged with perjury if they lied to investigators. Today’s Washington Post floats another possibility:

But a new theory about Fitzgerald’s aim has emerged in recent weeks from two lawyers who have had extensive conversations with the prosecutor while representing witnesses in the case. They surmise that Fitzgerald is considering whether he can bring charges of a criminal conspiracy perpetrated by a group of senior Bush administration officials. Under this legal tactic, Fitzgerald would attempt to establish that at least two or more officials agreed to take affirmative steps to discredit and retaliate against Wilson and leak sensitive government information about his wife. To prove a criminal conspiracy, the actions need not have been criminal, but conspirators must have had a criminal purpose.

The White House Iraq Group could be in trouble.

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/10/02/criminal-conspiracy
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(SherryB @ Oct 2 2005, 03:43 PM)
Today’s Washington Post floats another possibility:

But a new theory about Fitzgerald’s aim has emerged in recent weeks from two lawyers who have had extensive conversations with the prosecutor while representing witnesses in the case. They surmise that Fitzgerald is considering whether he can bring charges of a criminal conspiracy perpetrated by a group of senior Bush administration officials. Under this legal tactic, Fitzgerald would attempt to establish that at least two or more officials agreed to take affirmative steps to discredit and retaliate against Wilson and leak sensitive government information about his wife. To prove a criminal conspiracy, the actions need not have been criminal, but conspirators must have had a criminal purpose.

The White House Iraq Group could be in trouble.

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/10/02/criminal-conspiracy
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Maybe, maybe not.

The criminal conspiracy angle might also be the last item on Fitzgeralds checklist to review because he has been unable to support other charges, and doesn't want to leave the investigation open to criticism if he doesn't review that possiblity.

I don't know, but I reckon we'll find out.
Human Ills
QUOTE(Spot @ Oct 1 2005, 05:42 PM)
So, if a prosecutor decided to go only after black defendents it would be be ok, as long as they didn't manufacture evidence, hide exculpatory evidence etc.?
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lol
SherryB
Source to Stephanopoulos: President Bush Directly Involved In Leak Scandal
Near the end of a round table discussion on ABC’s This Week, George Stephanopoulos dropped this bomb:

Definitely a political problem but I wonder, George Will, do you think it’s a manageable one for the White House especially if we don’t know whether Fitzgerald is going to write a report or have indictments but if he is able to show as a source close to this told me this week, that President Bush and Vice President Cheney were actually involved in some of these discussions.

This would explain why Bush spent more than an hour answering questions from special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald. It would also fundamentally change the dynamics of the scandal. President Bush could no longer claim he was merely a bystander who wants to “get to the bottom of it.” As Stephanopoulos notes, if Bush played a direct role it could make this scandal completely unmanageable.

UPDATE: Crooks and Liars has the video.

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/10/02/bush-directly-involved



Video link: ABC News
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/10/02.html#a5192



Human Ills
QUOTE(SherryB @ Oct 2 2005, 08:34 AM)
Did you watch the video?  I believe the evidence must have been there or he would not have indicted DeLay.
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I think this board proves that one can find 12 laypeople of like political bent and willing to act upon it.
Grigorii
QUOTE(SherryB @ Oct 2 2005, 04:39 PM)
Source to Stephanopoulos: President Bush Directly Involved In Leak Scandal
Near the end of a round table discussion on ABC’s This Week, George Stephanopoulos dropped this bomb:

Definitely a political problem but I wonder, George Will, do you think it’s a manageable one for the White House especially if we don’t know whether Fitzgerald is going to write a report or have indictments but if he is able to show as a source close to this told me this week, that President Bush and Vice President Cheney were actually involved in some of these discussions.

This would explain why Bush spent more than an hour answering questions from special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald. It would also fundamentally change the dynamics of the scandal. President Bush could no longer claim he was merely a bystander who wants to “get to the bottom of it.” As Stephanopoulos notes, if Bush played a direct role it could make this scandal completely unmanageable.

UPDATE: Crooks and Liars has the video.

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/10/02/bush-directly-involved
Video link:  ABC News
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/10/02.html#a5192
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How disturbing, Bush and Cheney have lied to the American people...again!…and again!...time after time. Hell they make Slick Willie look like a paragon of virtue...by comparison...
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Human Ills @ Oct 2 2005, 05:40 PM)
I think this board proves that one can find 12 laypeople of like political bent and willing to act upon it.
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Likely a vast left-wing conspiracy. rolleyes.gif
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Grigorii @ Oct 2 2005, 06:05 PM)
How disturbing, Bush and Cheney have lied to the American people...again!…and again!...time after time. Hell they make Slick Willie look like a paragon of virtue...by comparison...
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They'll get right to the bottom of it, all right.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Spot @ Oct 2 2005, 12:17 PM)
Once again he made a new analogy, and not a very good one. But he stated motivations don't matter. If ones motivations make prosecution selective I think they do matter.
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What do we have here? A little vendetta action? I thought you would have appreciated the fact that, completely contrary to my usual practice, I let your little mini-attack on the news forum go.

I'll stack up my analogies against yours anytime.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Grigorii @ Oct 1 2005, 07:33 PM)
It might help if you had a realistic rebuttal, show me a district where any prosecutor could long get away with such actions.

What Noma said is as long as a prosecutor despences fair justice, which your example would not qualify as, his personal reasons for doing so are irrelevant. Could you not comprehend that or do you just enjoy irrelevant nit picking.
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Yep. One's motivation for DOING THE RIGHT THING is, in the end, irrelevant.

Selective prosecution is NOT doing the right thing.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Spot @ Oct 1 2005, 05:42 PM)
So, if a prosecutor decided to go only after black defendents it would be be ok, as long as they didn't manufacture evidence, hide exculpatory evidence etc.?
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How do you figure?

'To go only after black defendants' is, first of all, an action, not a motivation.

Even in the criminal law, intent by itself is invariably insufficient to constitute a crime.

QUOTE
To support a claim of selective prosecution, a defendant bears the burden of establishing unconstitutional discrimination in the administration of a penal statute. United States v. Gutierrez, 990 F.2d 472, 476 (9th Cir. 1993). In order to establish a prima facie case of selective prosecution, a defendant must show both "(1) that others similarly situated have not been prosecuted, and (2) that the prosecution is based on an impermissible motive, i.e. discriminatory purpose or intent." Id. at 475 (emphasis added). See also United States v. Bourgeois, 964 F.2d 935, 938 (9th Cir. 1992). The impermissibly discriminatory purpose or motive must imply "that the decision-maker selected or reaffirmed a particular course of action at least in part because or, not merely in spite of, its adverse effects upon an identifiable group. The identifiable group is typically a race, religion, or group of persons exercising a constitutional right." Gutierrez, 990 F.2d at 476 (citations omitted). Selective prosecution claims are evaluated according to ordinary equal protection standards. Bourgeois, 964 F.2d at 938. Similarly, to establish a prima facie case of vindictive prosecution, a defendant must make a "showing that charges of increased severity were filed because the accused exercised a statutory, procedural, or constitutional right in circumstances that give rise to an appearance of vindictiveness." United States v. Gallegos-Curiel, 681 F.2d 1164, 1168 (9th Cir. 1982).


http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_readi...e4/civ00138.htm
Bee
QUOTE(Spot @ Oct 2 2005, 04:17 PM)
Once again he made a new analogy, and not a very good one. But he stated motivations don't matter. If ones motivations make prosecution selective I think they do matter.
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Motivations in bringing a criminal to justice.

Most prosecutors are aggressive. Earle has been as hard on Democrats as he is on Republicans, actually harder on Democrats.

There was a good NYTime Magazine piece on another famous prosecutor, Eliot Spitzer...

QUOTE
Another measure of Spitzer's influence is the virulence of his critics. The Wall Street Journal editorial page, which frequently rails against "the Lord High New York Executioner," has complained that Spitzer "attacks entire businesses and business practices, whether or not he can prove any individual culpability in court." Grover Norquist, the anti-tax activist, views Spitzer as little more than a shakedown artist who extorts settlements from companies under the threat of indictment - more Alabama sheriff than New York prosecutor. This also accurately describes the sentiment in some corners of Wall Street, which could end up funneling tens of millions of dollars toward Spitzer's likely opponent next year, William Weld, the former Massachusetts governor who now lives in New York.

But while Spitzer's approach - call it Spitzerism - has infuriated Republican critics and helped individual Democrats win statewide office, so far it hasn't meant much to the Democratic Party as a whole. The Democrats, after all, remain shut out of power in Washington. Which raises a question that more and more Democrats are asking: is Spitzerism useful only in the narrow context of Democratic law-enforcement officials running for higher office? Or is there, lurking somewhere in Spitzer's experience, an approach that Democrats around the country could mine for political success?

Since his early days as attorney general, Spitzer has practiced a brand of prosecutorial politics that is less about securing indictments of evildoers than about shining a light on structural defects in corporate institutions.

In 1999, his first year in office, Spitzer intervened in a case involving a handful of coal-burning power plants in Ohio, Indiana and West Virginia. The plants had been exploiting a provision of the Clean Air Act that allowed them to avoid investing in pollution-reducing equipment under the assumption that they would soon be shuttered. Instead, the plants kept expanding, and their emissions contributed to chronic acid rain in states like New York and Connecticut. Spitzer broke a logjam in negotiations between the Northeastern states and the Environmental Protection Agency, on one side, and the power plants on the other by announcing his intention to haul the utility companies into court. Spitzer's lawyers spent six months collecting evidence against the power plants. All in all it looked more like a sting operation than an environmental case. Several of the companies eventually backed down.

This reflected a kind of toughness, but not the kind associated with Rudy Giuliani, with whom Spitzer is often compared. As United States attorney for the Southern District of New York, Giuliani saw white-collar crime as a product of personal immorality, and he went after the perpetrators with relish. Spitzer tends to see wrongdoing as the product of both moral failing and lousy incentives. In Spitzer's mind, the reason the power plants produced too much pollution wasn't that their owners were evil; it was that neither they nor their customers were forced to pay the cost of polluting. Spitzer wasn't looking to put the utility companies out of business. He just wanted the loophole closed.

Politically, this approach has several advantages. Attorneys general are, by definition, law enforcers. But Spitzer expands this template: he casts himself not just as an enforcer of the law per se, but also as an enforcer of a broader social compact between ordinary people and large institutions like government and business.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/02/magazine/02spitzer.html


I think Earle fancies himself in a similar way. One must keep in mind that these challengers to the wealthy and powerful are, in actuality, looking out for the little guy. The virulent attacks into their characters aren't engineered by regular folk. They are engineered by powerful interests that don't want the Spitzers and Earles looking too closely at what they are doing. What they are, and have been, doing is quite apparent.

I'd take criticism of these champions of the American People with a shaker full of salt.

Just ask yourself who wins and who loses in thse types of indictments. The powerful lose, and the average Joe is vindicated, so who would want to throw mud on these people?

Even if DeLay doesn't end up being convicted, he won't likely be elected again. That would be good for the Country. His type of "politics" has only served his corporate backers and the greediest of his party. We certainly don't need people like that in government.
Grigorii
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Oct 2 2005, 05:44 PM)
What do we have here? A little vendetta action? I thought you would have appreciated the fact that, completely contrary to my usual practice, I let your little mini-attack on the news forum go.

I'll stack up my analogies against yours anytime.
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She apparently doesn’t get that one constructs additional analogies for the benefit of folks who didn't understand the earlier ones as a courtesy...or thinks only one analogy can be made per circumstance. How gauche of you to construct more than one analogy to highlight you point…and make things more difficult.
judy
CULTURE OF CORRUPTION!

user posted image
Ethical Hypocrisy-

Debra J. Saunders asserts that Nancy Pelosi's pattern of rhetoric and behavior is one of "Ethics -- Only good for the other side."

...a funny thing happened on Pelosi's way to her ethics coup: She ran afoul of the same rules she hurls at DeLay. As the Washington Post reported, last week Pelosi filed delinquent reports for three trips she herself accepted from outside sponsors. The biggie was a week-long 1999 trip to Taiwan, paid for by the Chinese National Association of Industry and Commerce. The tab for Pelosi and her husband: about $8,000.

Just last month, Pelosi spokeswoman Jennifer Crider told Roll Call that Pelosi's "position is that the rules are clear; people need to follow them." Within days, Pelosi had to refile because she failed to follow these "clear" rules.

Here's another glitch: A senior aide to Pelosi, Eddie Charmaine Manansala, went on a $9,887 trip in 2004 sponsored by the same Korea-U.S. Exchange Council as sponsored DeLay's excursion -- then failed to file the mandated paperwork until a reporter asked about the trip.

And while Pelosi bashes GOP ethics, PoliticalMoneyLine, a data firm, crunched the numbers and found that in the last five years, Democrats took 3, 458 privately funded junkets, while Republicans took 2,666.


http://www.willisms.com/archives/2005/07/n..._pelosi_hy.html
Bee
QUOTE
Pelosi willing to give up S.F. funds for recovery
Edward Epstein, Chronicle Washington Bureau
Wednesday, September 21, 2005

Washington -- House Minority Leader Rep. Nancy Pelosi of San Francisco said Tuesday she was willing to return to the federal Treasury $70 million designated for San Francisco projects in the new highway and transportation bill and use the money to help pay for Hurricane Katrina recovery efforts.

Her counterpart, House Majority Leader Rep. Tom DeLay, R-Texas, said that while he would consider cutting all other domestic discretionary spending to raise the tens of billions of dollars needed for Katrina relief, it was a bad idea to take money from transportation projects.

His suburban Houston district is slated to get $64.4 million under the bill, and DeLay has said that he brought home an additional $50 million for freeway projects in the metropolitan area. He also helped secure $324 million in funding credits for Houston's light rail construction.

Pelosi, a longtime Appropriations Committee member who gave up that post when she became Democratic leader in late 2002, said she had always opposed the practice of lawmakers' writing legislation that specifies federal money for their special district projects.

"I would give them up to help Katrina victims," she said. "The people of San Francisco would be very proud of that.''

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...L&feed=rss.news
judy
LIBERAL SPEAK!

Eminent Domain-

user posted image

This exchange really just speaks for itself:

Q Later this morning, many Members of the House Republican leadership, along with John Cornyn from the Senate, are holding a news conference on eminent domain, the decision of the Supreme Court the other day, and they are going to offer legislation that would restrict it, prohibiting federal funds from being used in such a manner.

Two questions:
What was your reaction to the Supreme Court decision on this topic,
and what do you think about legislation to, in the minds of opponents at least, remedy or changing it?

Ms. Pelosi. As a Member of Congress, and actually all of us and anyone who holds a public office in our country, we take an oath of office to uphold the Constitution of the United States. Very central to that in that Constitution is the separation of powers. I believe that whatever you think about a particular decision of the Supreme Court, and I certainly have been in disagreement with them on many occasions, it is not appropriate for the Congress to say we're going to withhold funds for the Court because we don't like a decision.

Q Not on the Court, withhold funds from the eminent domain purchases that wouldn't involve public use. I apologize if I framed the question poorly. It wouldn't be withholding federal funds from the Court, but withhold Federal funds from eminent domain type purchases that are not just involved in public good.

Ms. Pelosi. Again, without focusing on the actual decision, just to say that when you withhold funds from enforcing a decision of the Supreme Court you are, in fact, nullifying a decision of the Supreme Court. This is in violation of the respect for separation of church -- powers in our Constitution, church and state as well. Sometimes the Republicans have a problem with that as well. But forgive my digression.

So the answer to your question is, I would oppose any legislation that says we would withhold funds for the enforcement of any decision of the Supreme Court no matter how opposed I am to that decision. And I'm not saying that I'm opposed to this decision, I'm just saying in general.

Q Could you talk about this decision? What you think of it?

Ms. Pelosi. It is a decision of the Supreme Court. If Congress wants to change it, it will require legislation of a level of a constitutional amendment. So this is almost as if God has spoken. It's an elementary discussion now. They have made the decision.

Q Do you think it is appropriate for municipalities to be able to use eminent domain to take land for economic development?

Ms. Pelosi. The Supreme Court has decided, knowing the particulars of this case, that that was appropriate, and so I would support that.


It is almost as if God has spoken? Yikes.

It's obvious Pelosi supports the Kelo decision, because it essentially undermines private property rights in America. Socialists do not believe in private property rights.

There are probably two other dimensions, as well, to Pelosi's theological support for Kelo. http://www.willisms.com/archives/2005/07/n..._pelosi_hy.html


Bee
Hmmm, Debra also said...

QUOTE
"There's a difference in degree here," Pelosi spokesman Brendan Daly noted, especially if DeLay solicited the trip.

I agree. There is a big difference in degree.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...EDGSVDJEBF1.DTL


It is fun to cherry pick. smile.gif

DeLay is scum. Pelosi's an opportunist.

Righties can stick with the scum.
judy
Is Nancy Pelosi Stupid, or Does She Think We Are?

The House has passed an amendment prohibiting the use of federal funds to seize private property for private economic development projects. In its report on the bill, the LAT quotes the Runaway-Bride-Eyed minority leader's reason for opposing it. She said she doesn't want to withhold federal dollars "for the enforcement of any decision of the Supreme Court, no matter how opposed I am to that decision."
This is, of course, a complete non sequitur. The Supreme Court's Kelo decision in no way said that cities must take private property or that Congress should encourage takings. It said those takings weren't constitutional prohibited. If anything, the House bill enforces Kelo, which requires legislative, rather than constitutional, protections at the federal level. Either Pelosi is an idiot or this is an ass-covering attempt to justify her support of takings by vaguely associating it with her support for Roe v. Wade.

The LAT report also mentions that "California and at least eight other states have laws on the books that forbid the use of the eminent domain power to condemn private property for economic development, except in 'blighted' areas." Does Pelosi oppose her own state's laws as well?

user posted image
SherryB
Another example of Republican corruption. Paying endless amounts of money for this guy to investigate a closed case. Wonder whose desk he's climbing under?




Cisneros Convicted in '99, But the Probe Goes On


By Jonathan Weisman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, October 1, 2005; Page A01

This spring, Republicans and Democrats voiced outrage over the news that independent counsel David M. Barrett was still pursuing a decade-long, $21 million investigation into a crime long confessed and paid for. Without debate, the Senate unanimously agreed to strip Barrett of further funding for his inquiry on former housing secretary Henry G. Cisneros.

But, prodded by conservative commentators, House Republican leaders grew convinced that Democrats were trying to suppress embarrassing revelations about the Clinton administration. The Senate provision was ditched behind closed doors, and Barrett and his staff continue to work -- at a cost to taxpayers of nearly $2 million a year -- on an inquiry that seemingly ended 13 months ago.




In its semiannual audit, the Government Accountability Office said yesterday that Barrett spent $930,742 from October 2004 to March 2005, six years after Cisneros pleaded guilty to the charges Barrett was appointed to investigate -- and more than a year after Barrett submitted his 400-page report for final judicial review. The GAO did not indicate what Barrett has been doing since he finished his report, other than maintain staff and office expenditures that have continued to rise since the investigation ended.

John Scofield, spokesman for the House Appropriations Committee, said yesterday that Congress has no business intervening in an independent counsel's investigation -- which, after all, is supposed to be independent.

Besides, he said, moves to strip Barrett's funding amount to "legal assistance from Democrats trying to cover up a report that would tar them."

Other independent counsel probes, even ones of far more expansive scope, have been wrapped up in less time than Barrett's. At $47 million, Lawrence E. Walsh's probe of illegal arms sales to Iran and the diversion of funds to Nicaraguan rebels was more expensive, but it took less than eight years. Kenneth W. Starr's probe, which skittered from the Whitewater land deal to the suicide of Vincent W. Foster Jr. to White House travel office firings to Monica S. Lewinsky, began less than a year before Barrett's and officially closed in March 2004. The probe of alleged financial improprieties by the late commerce secretary Ronald H. Brown took less than a year and $3.3 million, according to Kathleen Clark, a law professor at Washington University in St. Louis.

In a break from previous audits, the GAO report included language saying it was not expressing an opinion on the reasonableness or appropriateness of the expenditures. But in an interview, U.S. Comptroller General David M. Walker, a political independent who heads the agency, said he has requested additional information on Barrett's activities, given the sums involved and the state of his investigation.

It is not clear what Barrett's office is doing on a day-to-day basis, but the audit provided broad categories of expenditures. Barrett spent $464,009 on pay and benefits over six months; $24,014 on travel; $236,316 on rent, phone bills and utilities; $103,233 on contractors, mainly lawyers on retainer; and $74,178 on administrative services.

"These are pretty substantial numbers," Walker said.

"Infuriating and inexcusable," said Rep. Henry A. Waxman (Calif.), the ranking Democrat on the House Government Reform Committee, who has long been critical of Barrett. "He's burning through taxpayer dollars, and Washington Republicans won't make him accountable for the millions he's wasted."

In a preemptive move, Barrett faxed out a statement Thursday to defend his activity against the "numerous media accounts and considerable political posturing" that were occasioned by the last GAO audit. "The GAO has consistently found that the [office of independent counsel] has effective internal controls over its financial reporting and has complied with applicable laws and regulations," Barrett said in the fax. "It has never suggested that the OIC has improperly spent or mis-accounted for any funds," the statement said.

Sen. Byron L. Dorgan (D-N.D.), who wrote the legislation to cut off Barrett's funding, called the ongoing expenditures "unbelievably stupid."

Barrett is the last independent counsel of the Clinton era, still in business six years after Cisneros pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about money he paid to a former mistress. Cisneros paid a $10,000 fine and a $25 court assessment in 1999 and was later pardoned by Clinton.

Barrett has expanded the probe to look into allegations that a regional Internal Revenue Service audit into Cisneros's payments to the mistress was transferred to Washington and then stifled.

Barrett said he should be able to close his office by the beginning of 2006, once the three-judge panel overseeing his work decides whether his report can be released to the public. Barrett has been saying he is nearing completion of his work since 2003.

In April, when the last GAO audit was released, the Senate attached the Dorgan amendment to a mammoth emergency spending bill funding the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. That elicited charges by conservative commentators that Democrats were trying to cover up improprieties of the Clinton era, possibly by the IRS.

They blamed the investigation delays on Cisneros's attorneys. A Wall Street Journal editorial charged that lawyers at Williams & Connolly have filed more than 190 motions and appeals in the case, one of which took 18 months to resolve. The law firm would not comment.

Columnist Robert D. Novak said Dorgan's amendment, inserted "in the dead of the night," would "close a rare window into political foul play at the Internal Revenue Service."

Dorgan said his amendment would not have precluded the release of the final report, which was already completed. But in House and Senate negotiations over the spending bill, House leaders refused to accept the Dorgan language, and it was dropped.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5093001744.html

Bee
That is unbelievably stupid.
SherryB
Typical Republican waste of the taxpayer dollars. Since they don't pay taxes with the loopholes and offshore hiding, it's we, the middle class who pay for this crap.

judy
QUOTE(SherryB @ Oct 2 2005, 10:09 PM)
Typical Republican waste of the taxpayer dollars.  Since they don't pay taxes with the loopholes and offshore hiding, it's we, the middle class who pay for this crap.
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An enormous percentage of taxes are payed by a minority of Americans:

The Top 1% of taxpayers pay 29% of all taxes.

The Top 5% of taxpayers pay 50% of all taxes.


This means that most of the people are getting a FREE RIDE!!

How are you paying your taxes when you obviously have a lot of time to waste on the computer? Are you a paid poster?

SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(judy @ Oct 2 2005, 09:25 PM)
How are you paying your taxes when you obviously have a lot of time to waste on the computer?  Are you a paid poster?
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I'm afraid you're the only one here that's not getting paid to post.
judy
Our tax system is not so much progressive as it is confiscatory

-- Frederic Bastiat called this phenomenon "legal plunder." A progressive tax is based on the premise that those with more income can afford to pay more taxes, and conversely, those with little or no income should pay no tax. However, a quick look at Graph 1A below shows that the U.S. tax system has become far beyond progressive. Fully half the taxpayers contribute almost nothing in individual income taxes.
The Top 1% of income earners (comprising about 1 million families) earn about 15% of the total income earned by all wage earners in the United States, yet they pay almost 30% of all individual income taxes.

Furthermore, the Top 1% are shouldering a roughly 50% higher proportion of the overall income tax burden than they did in 1977.


THE BOTTOM 50% OF TAXPAYERS PAY ONLY 3.5% OF THE PERSONAL INCOME TAX


These are the people who are complaining about tax cuts.
judy
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Oct 2 2005, 10:32 PM)
I'm afraid you're the only one here that's not getting paid to post.
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It wouldn't be the first time. Took a cruise one time and found out that I was the only paying customer... everyone else I met had some sort of "deal"... gave Football talks, bridge lessons, handwriting analysis or was a travel agent and got a complementary trip.

But it's just as well. I have to do it 'pro bono' since you can't afford me. laugh.gif
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(judy @ Oct 2 2005, 09:38 PM)
Furthermore, the Top 1% are shouldering a roughly 50% higher proportion of the overall income tax burden than they did in 1977.

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That sounds alarming.

Of course, it might not be so alarming if the share of the national income earned by the top 1% went up by more than 50% between 1977 and today.

Say, would you have any data on that?
judy
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Oct 2 2005, 10:55 PM)
That sounds alarming.

Of course, it might not be so alarming if the share of the national income earned by the top 1% went up by more than 50% between 1977 and today.

Say, would you have any data on that?
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Not handy. Maybe tomorrow. Since I don't get paid mellow.gif overtime, I'm punching out.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(judy @ Oct 2 2005, 08:13 PM)
Not handy.  Maybe tomorrow.  Since I don't get paid  mellow.gif overtime, I'm punching out.
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Good for you. Rest easy..

Grigorii
QUOTE(judy @ Oct 2 2005, 08:25 PM)
An enormous percentage of taxes are payed by a minority of Americans:

The Top 1% of taxpayers pay 29% of all taxes.

The Top 5% of taxpayers pay 50% of all taxes.
This means that most of the people are getting a FREE RIDE!!

How are you paying your taxes when you obviously have a lot of time to waste on the computer?  Are you a paid poster?

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Limbaugh has been broadcasting that same damned lie (ALL taxes is the lie part) for years now. I'm not surprised you would quote the same garbage and lie. The average 1%er's taxes wouldn't put the wheels and engines on a single B1 bomber. As a percent of income and in total volume the middle and lower classes bear the greatest tax burden. And a percent of disposable income the poor who pay NO income tax are the heaviest taxed class in the country 52-54 cents out of every dollar they spend is the result of some level of taxation.

In short you and Limbaugh are liars, or just plain don't know what the eff your talking about!

How the five O'clock shadow Judy dear?

You're likely the only paid poster here, that's why you suspect others!
Bart Katz
QUOTE(SherryB @ Oct 2 2005, 05:39 PM)
Source to Stephanopoulos: President Bush Directly Involved In Leak Scandal
Near the end of a round table discussion on ABC’s This Week, George Stephanopoulos dropped this bomb:

Definitely a political problem but I wonder, George Will, do you think it’s a manageable one for the White House especially if we don’t know whether Fitzgerald is going to write a report or have indictments but if he is able to show as a source close to this told me this week, that President Bush and Vice President Cheney were actually involved in some of these discussions.

This would explain why Bush spent more than an hour answering questions from special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald. It would also fundamentally change the dynamics of the scandal. President Bush could no longer claim he was merely a bystander who wants to “get to the bottom of it.” As Stephanopoulos notes, if Bush played a direct role it could make this scandal completely unmanageable.

UPDATE: Crooks and Liars has the video.

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/10/02/bush-directly-involved
Video link:  ABC News
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/10/02.html#a5192
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Bushie should have followed Slick Willies lead and done the questions via video.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Grigorii @ Oct 2 2005, 11:23 PM)
Limbaugh has been broadcasting that same damned lie (ALL taxes is the lie part) for years now. I'm not surprised you would quote the same garbage and lie. The average 1%er's taxes wouldn't put the wheels and engines on a single B1 bomber. As a percent of income and in total volume the middle and lower classes bear the greatest tax burden. And a percent of disposable income the poor who pay NO income tax are the heaviest taxed class in the country 52-54 cents out of every dollar they spend is the result of some level of taxation.

In short you and Limbaugh are liars, or just plain don't know what the eff your talking about!

How the five O'clock shadow Judy dear?

You're likely the only paid poster here,  that's why you suspect others!
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Pick the lies you want to believe and don't believe the others. Now, please show the math that supports your claim. Othewise it's a fucking lie.
Grigorii
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Oct 3 2005, 02:39 AM)
Pick the lies you want to believe and don't believe the others.  Now, please show the math that supports your claim.  Othewise it's a fucking lie.
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I know who is a fucking liar "Judy's" figures are for Income taxs NOT ALL TAXES!

And presenting them as such IS A FUCKING LIE!
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Grigorii @ Oct 3 2005, 04:33 AM)
I know who is a fucking liar "Judy's" figures are for Income taxs NOT ALL TAXES!

And presenting them as such IS A FUCKING LIE!
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Income tax is generally what we talk about when we talk taxes.
judy
QUOTE(Grigorii @ Oct 3 2005, 05:33 AM)
I know who is a fucking liar "Judy's" figures are for Income taxs NOT ALL TAXES!

And presenting them as such IS A FUCKING LIE!
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[center]user posted image

Feeding at the trough of ignorance is incompatible with higher thought
processes.
[/center]

Look again.... my post said: "Personal Income Tax" It's a good thing for you that you are not taxed for your stupididy and vulgarity.
davis¹³
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Oct 2 2005, 09:55 PM)
That sounds alarming.

Of course, it might not be so alarming if the share of the national income earned by the top 1% went up by more than 50% between 1977 and today.

Say, would you have any data on that?
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user posted imageuser posted imageuser posted image
davis¹³
I should not have called judy a bitch for posting the graphic photo. I should have told her there was an agrrement that maybe she hadn't been aware of. My apologies.
davis¹³
QUOTE
Feeding at the trough of ignorance is incompatible with higher thought
processes.


lol
davis¹³
DeLay Vows Return to House Leadership Role

By HOPE YEN
The Associated Press
Monday, October 3, 2005; 4:05 AM

WASHINGTON -- Tom DeLay is vowing a quick return to his powerful role as House majority leader despite a criminal indictment, putting him at odds with some moderate Republicans who say his tarnished image could hurt the party.

A defiant DeLay, R-Texas, on Sunday dismissed the criminal conspiracy charges against him as "over the top" and said he can do his job even without the title.
He pledged to continue his close partnership with House Speaker Dennis Hastert to aggressively push an agenda of lower gasoline prices and tax cuts in the coming weeks.



Under House Republican rules, DeLay had to step aside as floor leader because of the indictment.

The criminal charges are "so frivolous, so over-the-top, so embarrassing to the judiciary that we ought to be able to get it out of here pretty quickly," DeLay told "Fox News Sunday." "It will be over and be over very, very soon. And I think I will go back to be majority leader."

DeLay said he and Hastert, R-Ill., will continue to plot GOP strategy. "The speaker and I have been leading the House for, what, eight years now. It's because we get along together, we think the same. We are simpatico."

But moderate Rep. Christopher Shays of Connecticut saw a liability for his fellow Republicans. "We got elected basically by saying we would live by a higher moral standard, and I don't think recently we have," he said on CNN's "Late Edition."

Shays said he has not been not comfortable with DeLay as a House leader, citing "continual acts that border and go sometimes beyond the ethical edge. They may not be illegal, but he's always pushing that ethical edge to the limit."


Rep. David Dreier, R-Calif., the House Rules Committee chairman initially recommended to take over many of DeLay's duties, said on CBS' "Face the Nation" that DeLay "knows he's not going to run things."

DeLay was charged by a Texas grand jury Wednesday with conspiring with two political associates to use corporate donations to support state legislative candidates.

The hard-charging leader known for keeping colleagues in line and raising prodigious amounts of cash to help elect GOP candidates said he is only guilty of working to defeat Democrats. "But that's not illegal," he told Fox.

The indictment charged that conspirators carried out a fundraising scheme by having the DeLay-founded Texans for a Republican Majority Political Action Committee send corporate money to the Republican National Committee in Washington. The RNC then sent back a like amount _ $190,000 _ to distribute to Texas candidates.

DeLay said he allowed his name to be used for fundraisers and participated in several of them, but vehemently denied knowing about or intending any illegal activity. Instead, he said, he asked that associates consult with lawyers to make sure their activity was proper.

"I did nothing wrong," DeLay said Sunday. "I had nothing to do with the day-to-day operation. It was my idea to form this group. I helped to organize it. I have other things to do. I stepped away and moved on."

Criminal conspiracy is a Texas felony punishable by six months to two years in a state jail and a fine of up to $10,000. DeLay was summoned by a judge to appear in court in Austin on Oct. 21.

Contesting the allegation, DeLay said, "I mean, a racketeering suit? And do you know what they put in the suit? That I was conspiring to defeat Democrats. Guilty. I'm guilty of that. But that's not illegal."

He also denied that a $70,000 trip to London in 2000 was improperly paid for by lobbyist Jack Abramoff, who has been charged with fraud and conspiracy in a separate case.

The House ethics committee is investigating whether DeLay's airfare and other expenses, including golf outings, were charged to an Abramoff credit card.

"Look, we were friends, just like I am friends with many lobbyists in this town. I have no clue as to his inner workings of his business," DeLay said. "People are trying to make me responsible for Jack Abramoff's actions if he's guilty, and I'm not convinced that he is."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5100300135.html
davis¹³
Commentator says he may return fees
By Greg Toppo, USA TODAY


Commentator Armstrong Williams said Sunday that he is in negotiations to return some of the money he received under a Bush administration contract to promote the president's education law.

Federal investigators, in reports issued Friday, said the contract violated a government ban on "covert propaganda." Investigators said the Williams contract and others — including a government-produced video made to look like a news report — were illegal because the government's role wasn't made clear.


Williams, a prominent conservative columnist and pundit, said he was discussing returning some of his fees because he didn't promote the law or ask others to do so, as the contract required.

The three reports issued Friday by the Government Accountability Office, Congress's non-partisan watchdog, come nearly six months after the Education Department's inspector general criticized the Williams deal. Under the agreement, Williams was to promote the No Child Left Behind law on his syndicated TV show — and to encourage others to promote the law. One of the reports cited monthly summaries submitted by Williams' company that Education Department investigators said showed he promoted the law at least 168 times, in syndicated columns, on radio and on TV, in addition to ads he was paid to produce. The department did not provide transcripts, recordings or other records, and GAO investigators could only find a few newspaper columns.

But in an interview Sunday, Williams said the monthly reports merely logged his media appearances in general. "There was this confusion that we were talking about No Child Left Behind ... in those instances," he said. "That was just not the case."

Williams said he was paid only to produce ads and said negotiations to return part of his fees stem from the fact that he didn't fulfill the part of the contract requiring him to promote the law, a provision that he says he had asked to be removed. "I've said all along that there were things that they asked me to do that was clear in the beginning that I would not do."

In January, when USA TODAY first reported on the deal, Williams said he promoted No Child Left Behind because "it's something I believe in."

Education Department officials earlier said they had merely purchased Williams' services to produce a pair of television ads, but Education Department spokeswoman Susan Aspey on Friday offered no defense of the $240,000 contract. "We've been saying for the past six months that this was stupid, wrong and ill-advised," she said in a statement. "There's nothing in today's action that changes our opinion."

GAO investigators also considered cases that did not involve Williams. They said a media analysis paid for by the Education Department, which rated coverage of No Child Left Behind on a 200-point scale, was "within its authority," but a questionable use of taxpayer funds. And Anthony Gamboa, the GAO's general counsel, said a prepackaged video news release promoting free tutoring available through No Child Left Behind constituted covert propaganda because it didn't disclose that it had been produced by the government. The media analysis and video release cost taxpayers $135,272.

In another case, the GAO found that a news article on the decline of scientific literacy in schools, contracted to the North American Precis Syndicate by the Education Department, constituted covert propaganda.

Since January, several other news agencies revealed that freelance commentators wrote pieces promoting administration policies on marriage and on the environment without disclosing they had received government funds to write the pieces or to support their interest groups. The GAO concluded that one such contract with syndicated columnist Maggie Gallagher, a marriage advocate, did not constitute covert propaganda because "the services provided were not covert, self-aggrandizing, or purely partisan."


http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/20...iams-fees_x.htm
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE
"I had nothing to do with the day-to-day operation. It was my idea to form this group. I helped to organize it. I have other things to do. I stepped away and moved on."


[center]"He didn't know."[/center]


The Enron defense.

davis¹³
The Iran/Contra defense.
Grigorii
QUOTE(judy @ Oct 3 2005, 05:16 AM)
[center]user posted image 

Feeding at the trough of ignorance is incompatible with higher thought
processes.
[/center]

Look again.... my post said:  "Personal Income Tax" It's a good thing for you that you are not taxed for your stupididy and vulgarity.
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If it dosent say ALL taxes then you have edited it, an old habit with you...You are so dishonest you'd drive the Pope vulgarity.
Grigorii
QUOTE(judy @ Oct 2 2005, 08:25 PM)
An enormous percentage of taxes are payed by a minority of Americans:

The Top 1% of taxpayers pay 29% of all taxes.

The Top 5% of taxpayers pay 50% of all taxes.
This means that most of the people are getting a FREE RIDE!!

How are you paying your taxes when you obviously have a lot of time to waste on the computer?  Are you a paid poster?
[right][snapback]132951[/snapback][/right]



There is the entire post the red is mine...liar!
SherryB
From Newsweek, part of a longer article about the Republican Troubles:




"Bush and his fellow Republicans have little margin for error. Three forces—sky-high gasoline prices, the massive costs of rebuilding the Gulf Coast and ever-gloomier public assessments of the war in Iraq—have combined to weaken Bush's reputation as a strong leader, and leave him vulnerable to the kind of second-term fiascoes that tend to befall all presidents: think Ronald Reagan and Iran-contra, or Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. Indeed, polltaker Frank Luntz, who helped develop the "Contract With America" message that swept Republicans to power in 1994, was on the Hill last week warning the party faithful that they could lose both the House and the Senate in next year's congressional elections.
The Republicans' power outage is real—and the historical irony is as vast as Texas. Beginning in the 1950s, the Democratic Party of Texans Lyndon Johnson and Sam Rayburn built a congressional machine of unrivaled power. But starting in the '80s, led by a firebrand named Newt Gingrich, Republicans led a revolt from below in the name of smaller government and an ethically cleansed Congress. In 1989 Newt & Co. forced out Democratic Speaker Jim Wright—a Texan, too, who resigned over charges that he profited improperly from book sales—and five years later the GOP took control of the House after a Biblical 40 years in the wilderness. But it took the Republicans only 10 years to become yet another ruling party beset by charges of profligate spending, bloated government and corruption—a party led by two Texans, Bush and DeLay, who don't particularly care whether they are beloved outside their inner circle. To paraphrase David Mamet, the Republicans became what they beheld.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9558564/site/newsweek

judy
QUOTE(judy @ Oct 2 2005, 10:38 PM)
Our tax system is not so much progressive as it is confiscatory

-- Frederic Bastiat called this phenomenon "legal plunder." A progressive tax is based on the premise that those with more income can afford to pay more taxes, and conversely, those with little or no income should pay no tax. However, a quick look at Graph 1A below shows that the U.S. tax system has become far beyond progressive. Fully half the taxpayers contribute almost nothing in individual income taxes.
The Top 1% of income earners (comprising about 1 million families) earn about 15% of the total income earned by all wage earners in the United States, yet they pay almost 30% of all individual income taxes.
Furthermore, the Top 1% are shouldering a roughly 50% higher proportion of the overall income tax burden than they did in 1977.
THE BOTTOM 50% OF TAXPAYERS PAY ONLY 3.5% OF THE PERSONAL INCOME TAXThese are the people who are complaining about tax cuts.
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Here you go grig user posted image
I did not edit my post


NO WONDER YOU LIE.... YOU CAN'T EVEN READ! YOU JUST KEEP PIGGING OUT AT THE TROUGH OF IGNORACE AND DECEIT.
Grigorii
QUOTE(judy @ Oct 3 2005, 10:23 AM)
Here you go grig  user posted image
I did not edit my post
NO WONDER YOU LIE.... YOU CAN'T EVEN READ!  YOU JUST KEEP PIGGING OUT AT THE TROUGH OF IGNORACE AND DECEIT.
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I have already posted the post you wrote that I responded to, it was intentionally misleading. Liar! Plagiarist, Clone!!!

SherryB
Judy seems to have directly taken Alan Keyes speeches or writings and made them her own. I don't have time to research that claim, but it sure sounds like vintage Keyes, especially the really long, boring, extremist posts.



Bart Katz
QUOTE(SherryB @ Oct 3 2005, 11:41 AM)
Judy seems to have directly taken Alan Keyes speeches or writings and made them her own.  I don't have time to research that claim, but it sure sounds like vintage Keyes, especially the really long, boring, extremist posts.
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Please try to catch up.
judy
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Oct 3 2005, 12:48 PM)
Please try to catch up.
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Ha Ha, Bart. You are telling someont to "catch up" who can't even "catch on"! laugh.gif biggrin.gif
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