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Bart Katz
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 12 2004, 11:21 PM)
I fear the motivation of too many socialists isn't to make poor people rich, but to make rich people poor. A view with unintended consequences galore when put into practice.
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I'm sure of it. The standard "dog in the manger" syndrome.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(lil bart @ Dec 12 2004, 11:24 PM)
The motivation of socialists may well be both. That implication is this discussion is dishonest.
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Key words "too many" socialists.
Art.
QUOTE(lil bart @ Dec 12 2004, 10:23 PM)


I am absolutely not looking either to punish or to provide any disincentive to business investment or growth. Neither am I looking to underwrite business profits at general consumer or citizen expense.
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The consumer always pays. Business merely collects the tax.
lil bart
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 12 2004, 09:25 PM)
The consumer always pays. Business merely collects the tax.
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Exactly. Businesses should collect their portion of taxes from their consumers. Not wholesale from the citizenry.
Art.
QUOTE(lil bart @ Dec 12 2004, 10:24 PM)
The motivation of socialists may well be both. That implication is this discussion is dishonest.
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Maybe. I do note that socialists seem to worry more than anyone about what somebody else makes. Like bluenoses worry more about what people are doing in the privacy of their own bedroom,
lil bart
QUOTE(lil bart @ Dec 12 2004, 09:28 PM)
Exactly. Businesses should collect their portion of taxes from their consumers. Not wholesale from the citizenry.
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Part of the cost of doing business -- on both ends. For the business; for the consumer.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(lil bart @ Dec 12 2004, 11:29 PM)
Part of the cost of doing business -- on both ends. For the business; for the consumer.
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Some of those taxes are friolous and archaic. For instance the FET on tires.
Art.
QUOTE(lil bart @ Dec 12 2004, 10:28 PM)
Exactly. Businesses should collect their portion of taxes from their consumers. Not wholesale from the citizenry.
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This is starting to range far afield. I'm not for government welfare money to business.(for the most part, possibly low interest loans in some cases) But not taking something isn't the same as giving.
lil bart
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 12 2004, 09:29 PM)
Maybe.  I do note that socialists seem to worry more than anyone about what somebody else makes. Like bluenoses worry more about what people are doing in the privacy of their own bedroom,
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We seem to have lost sight of the fact that this discussion began with a discussion of whether income from different sources should be taxed differently or not at all. You haven't made the case to me anyway that fast food minimum wage jobs should be fully taxed, while earnings from interest, dividends, rents, etc. should pay a lesser rate or none. I think that dishonestly disorders economic reality as well as people's actual well-being.
lil bart
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Dec 12 2004, 09:31 PM)
Some of those taxes are friolous and archaic.  For instance the FET on tires.
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I don't know what you mean here, but many taxes (and subsidies) are frivolous and archaic.


QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 12 2004, 09:31 PM)
This is starting to range far afield. I'm not for government welfare money to business.(for the most part, possibly low interest loans in some cases) But not taking something isn't the same as giving.
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Not taking something is the same as giving if the state is not taking what elsewise must be paid for -- by someone else.
Art.
Well the fast food worker ought to get a big deduction. An incentive to work rather than collect welfare or unemployment. But that worker is going to pay more for hidden taxes on the businesses he frequents. Either way the worker pays.

If he saves up enough to earn interest or charge rent won't that be a second tax on the same earned income?
lil bart
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 12 2004, 09:40 PM)
Well the fast food worker ought to get a big deduction. An incentive to work rather than collect welfare or unemployment. But that worker is going to pay more for hidden taxes on the businesses he frequents. Either way the worker pays.

If he saves up enough to earn interest or charge rent won't that be a second tax on the same earned income?
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Why a big deduction? Why not tax income from all sources equally?

I agree that either way the worker pays, but in the current codes a lot of non-workers do not.
Art.
QUOTE(lil bart @ Dec 12 2004, 10:54 PM)
Why a big deduction? Why not tax income from all sources equally?


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So my house is earning income I should be taxed on again when I sell it? Even though I already pay taxes at all levels on the cash I use to make my mortgage payement?
lil bart
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 12 2004, 09:59 PM)
So my house is earning income I should be taxed on again when I sell it? Even though I already pay taxes at all levels on the cash I use to make my mortgage payement?
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Well, I guess the quick answer would be yes, but were it to be across the board there would be a concomitant drop in other rates, one would (have to) presume. I'm not sure there should not be a homeowner's exemption for owner occupied dwelling. But actually, in Washington State the state does tax real estate transactions as a percentage of the sales price.

I am certainly not arguing for taxes to rise for the average worker insect or for government revenues to rise (except concurrent in some proportion with spending -- a notation made necessary during the last four years).
Art.
QUOTE(lil bart @ Dec 12 2004, 11:14 PM)
Well, I guess the quick answer would be yes, but were it to be across the board there would be a concomitant drop in other rates, one would (have to) presume. I'm not sure there should not be a homeowner's exemption for owner occupied dwelling. But actually, in Washington State the state does tax real estate transactions as a percentage of the sales price.

I am certainly not arguing for taxes to rise for the average worker insect or for government revenues to rise (except concurrent in some proportion with spending -- a notation made necessary during the last four years).
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Now you can take a one time exclusion. I think it's a good incentive for people to buy and pay off a house. Also like the homestead act, automatic here in AZ.

I just don't like hidden taxes. The way the government raises taxes on the drones without them realizing it.


lil bart
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 12 2004, 10:21 PM)
Now you can take a one time exclusion. I think it's a good incentive for people to buy and pay off a house. Also like the homestead act, automatic here in AZ.

I just don't like hidden taxes. The way the government raises taxes on the drones without them  realizing it.
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Hate hidden taxes -- like the ones in nine lines on every utility bill. mad.gif
Art.
QUOTE(lil bart @ Dec 12 2004, 11:23 PM)
Hate hidden taxes -- like the ones in nine lines on every utility bill.  mad.gif
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Tell me about it. My water bill just doubled. Now if I don't pay my trash bill my water gets shut off. All this and they cut collections from twice to once a week.
lil bart
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 12 2004, 10:27 PM)
Tell me about it. My water bill just doubled. Now if I don't pay my trash bill my water gets shut off. All this and they cut collections from twice to once a week.
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Our garbage bill is our only halfway reasonable utility. About $25/month for pick-up once every two weeks, but the cans are huge and include recycling bins.

Water/sewer/electric in January will be $71/month (up from $65 now) just to be connected, before any usage is assessed. And that is publicly owned. blink.gif
Bart Katz
QUOTE(lil bart @ Dec 13 2004, 12:23 AM)
Hate hidden taxes -- like the ones in nine lines on every utility bill.  mad.gif
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I believe one of those lines is the tax that was to pay for the Spanish American War. sad.gif
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 13 2004, 12:27 AM)
Tell me about it. My water bill just doubled. Now if I don't pay my trash bill my water gets shut off. All this and they cut collections from twice to once a week.
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Yeah, when we got the robot trash cans they gave us really big trash containers and then went from twice a week to once a week pickup.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 12 2004, 10:59 PM)
So my house is earning income I should be taxed on again when I sell it? Even though I already pay taxes at all levels on the cash I use to make my mortgage payement?
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Yes. Income is income. Every worker already pays taxes at all levels on the cash he/she uses to make the payments that support or enhance his/her human capital, as well.

Your house is not earning income. You're earning income from renting that house out. If/when you sell it, you earn additional income (the capitalized net present value of a stream of rents, over a period of so many years).

When one earns wages or salaries from selling the use of his productive capacity for a time-period, those wages and salaries are double-taxed (payroll and income taxes). One then takes the net proceeds and uses a variable but significant portion to "produce/reproduce" that productive capacity so that it is "rentable" anew. When it earns one additional wages and salaries, the latter are double-taxed again.

An income tax taxes income.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 12 2004, 10:21 PM)
I fear the motivation of too many socialists isn't to make poor people rich, but to make rich people poor. A view with unintended consequences galore when put into practice.
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Well, you go ahead and concoct and then fear the motivation of every one else. Don't be surprised ifi conversation becomes difficult. Also, don't be surprised if they start concocting and then fearing your motivations for anything.

I am the master of circumlocutions, as you never tire of reminding me.

Here's a straight-up claim:

Our income tax should be progressive and should tax all income, from all sources, the same.

Economics is about logic, I thought. When it comes down to it, if you don't like what the logic dictates, you're on to rationalizations and justifications for refusing to accept its implications.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 12 2004, 09:43 PM)
Not necessarily. Too many unintended consequences.
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As opposed to the fewer unintended consequences of treating income from different sources differently?????
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE
Our income tax should be progressive and should tax all income, from all sources, the same.


May I suggest that you debate each premise seperately?

A. Our income tax should tax all income, from all sources, the same.

B. Our income tax should be progressive.




SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 13 2004, 11:58 AM)
As opposed to the fewer unintended consequences of treating income from different sources differently?????
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There are considerable unintended (we presume ) consequences of treating income differently depending on its source.



Concern for unintended consequences should favor treating all income the same, not crafting incentives one way or another.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Dec 13 2004, 10:03 AM)
May I suggest that you debate each premise seperately?

A. Our income tax should tax all income, from all sources, the same.

B. Our income tax should be progressive.
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Fair enough.

Let's stick with A. above, for now.

Our disinterested and "expert" friends over at BusinessWeek are up to their usual tricks:

What A "Fairer" Tax Code Might Look Like: A reelected Bush may rework the existing system -- or try for a consumption tax
Nomarchy
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Dec 13 2004, 10:07 AM)
There are considerable unintended (we presume ) consequences of treating income differently depending on its source.
Concern for unintended consequences should favor treating all income the same, not crafting incentives one way or another.
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I thought so, as well.
Bart Katz
Inecentives make a difference, which is often for the greater good.
smerf
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Dec 13 2004, 10:19 AM)
Inecentives make a difference, which is often for the greater good.
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you know, i just learned something really interesting.

there is no such thing as a selfless good deed.

can you find one?
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Dec 13 2004, 12:19 PM)
Inecentives make a difference, which is often for the greater good.
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For this reason, incentives of every flavor are in high demand. Still, each carries a considerable risk of unintended consequences.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Dec 13 2004, 11:27 AM)
For this reason, incentives of every flavor are in high demand. Still, each carries a considerable risk of unintended consequences.
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As long as the greater good outweighs the unintended stuff, it's still for the greater good.
Nomarchy
Nothing like enjoying ideological hegemony:

QUOTE
But Bush has more than campaign rhetoric on his mind. He and his advisers believe that reducing taxes on savings and investment income helps spur economic growth.

In his first term he reduced the effective tax rate on capital income by nearly one-fourth by slashing rates on dividends and capital gains and by expanding business tax breaks for purchasing capital equipment.[b]

Now some of his advisers see tax reform as the next step toward driving taxes on investment even lower.[b] "A zero tax on capital is the right way to go," says R. Glenn Hubbard, former top economic adviser to Bush and godfather to his first-term cut in taxes on dividends
.

So will this simply lead to another round of tax-cutting and rising deficits, without revenue increases elsewhere to make up the shortfall?
Not likely. Bush has vowed to halve the deficit by the end of his second term. With even Republicans beginning to feel queasy about the soaring deficit, he'd have a hard time walking away from that pledge. The Administration might claim that tax cuts will juice up growth enough to pay for themselves. But the record doesn't offer much support.[ As IF that has meant anything to that crowd, so far.]

More likely, Bush aides say, any tax overhaul would be designed to be revenue-neutral. But to get there, Bush would have to close loopholes to pay for any rate cuts or fresh exemptions. "One piece of this has to be raising someone's taxes," says Congressional Budget Office director Douglas Holtz-Eakin. "And that's politically difficult."

Until now, neither the current Congress nor the Administration has shown any inclination to make such hard choices.
If they could muster the political will, such an approach could actually help the White House meet some expensive goals -- like corralling the runaway alternative minimum tax. That levy forces individuals to figure their taxes twice, then pay the higher tab. Intended to snag the very rich, the AMT is now hitting middle-class families because it isn't indexed for inflation: The number of AMT taxpayers is projected to soar, from 3 million in 2004 to 23.5 million in 2008. Repairing the AMT will cost upwards of $600 billion. That tab might be easier to bear as part of a sweeping tax overhaul.

So what would tax reform look like?
It depends how ambitious Bush is. He could settle for closing some loopholes to buy down rates further without changing the underlying structure of the income tax. Or he could push harder for savings exemptions and take the code toward a system based on taxing consumption.

The first approach would echo Reagan's 1986 triumph, dumping scores of special-interest tax breaks and using the money to sharply reduce rates. But Bush has been moving in the opposite direction. In his campaign, he is promising new tax breaks to encourage spending on everything from health care to fuel-efficient cars -- just the kind of stuff that reform is supposed to clean out. So Bush is likely to favor a version of the income tax that lightens the burden on savings and taxes consumption instead.

How would a shift toward taxing consumption differ from what we have now?

The existing code is a complicated hybrid. We call it an income tax, but it doesn't actually tax all income: The value of fringe benefits, such as health insurance and parking, goes untaxed[ Horror of horrors! Let's not highlight the fact that investment income gets preferential income tax treatment. ]. And the treatment of investment income verges on haphazard. About half of all capital income goes to tax-exempt accounts such as 401(k)s or pension funds. And companies often shelter their earnings from corporate taxes.

On the other hand, many companies do pay tax on their profits, then investors pay tax again on dividends or capital gains. So returns on investment may be taxed twice, once, or not at all. [Isn't that special? Such concern with returns on investment! Such logical prestidigitation to make the single taxation of income by different entities into "multiple taxation", while ignoring the actual double-taxation of the same income by the same individual . . . ah, but those "losers" are merely working for a living and only collectively representing 80% of the economy . . . who needs them, let's tax their consumption instead, what a brilliant, brilliant plan]

A consumption tax, by contrast, is simply a levy on spending. In other words, you would take all the money you earn, subtract what you save, and pay tax on the rest.

How would Washington collect such a tax?
It could add a sales tax to the final price of goods and services we buy at the retail level, just as most states do today. Or it could have businesses pay the tax at each stage of production and pass the cost on to consumers in the form of higher prices. This is the value-added tax, or VAT, that most European countries use. Finally, the feds could collect the money through a system of tax withholding and annual returns, much as they do today. That version is called a "consumed income tax."

How would a consumed income tax work?
Think of an unlimited individual retirement account. You would simply list your income -- including, possibly, all your fringe benefits and other goodies that are currently excluded -- then subtract everything you save and invest and calculate tax on what is left. Investment earnings would be taxed once they are cashed in and you have used them to buy something.

Isn't that like the retirement savings accounts Bush has already proposed?
Bush has proposed two new savings vehicles: retirement savings accounts (RSAS) and lifetime savings accounts (LSAS). Together they would let a couple sock $20,000 a year into savings and never pay tax on the earnings -- eliminating all taxes on capital for 95% of individual taxpayers, [Nice. And how many individual taxpayers derive even, say, 25%, not to mention 50%, of their total income from "capital"?] according to William G. Gale of the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center.

Are those a step to a consumed income tax?
Not at all. RSAs, LSAs, and cuts in capital gains and dividend taxes are not tax reform. They are merely cuts in taxes on investment.[ No, cuts on taxes on income from investments] Under a true consumption levy, allowing investment income to go tax-free would have to be coupled with ending the tax deduction for interest paid by corporations and by homeowners on their mortgages -- a huge and far less popular change.

Why would interest deductions need to go?
Because if you can deduct interest on a loan, invest the money, and earn tax-free profits, you essentially get a government subsidy for investing. That would open up a new world of tax shelters and destroy the benefits of reform. Worse, it would create a system where only wages are taxed. That would be unfair to working people. And a wage tax could never produce enough revenue to fund the $2.4 trillion the government spends each year.

If Bush pushes for bigger savings exemptions, he might try to pay for them by eliminating the interest deductions currently available to corporations. But don't look for him or any other politician to propose eliminating the deduction on home mortgage interest any time soon. It remains politically untouchable.

What do the Democrats have to say about all this?
Not surprisingly, they're skeptical. Presidential nominee John Kerry argues that Bush's real agenda is to exempt all capital income from tax. When Bush said at an August campaign stop that a national sales tax was an "interesting idea," Kerry pounced. He will also argue that Bush, whose tax cuts have made the code far more complicated, can hardly claim to favor simplification.

The sales tax debate is being tested in the South Carolina Senate race, where Republican Jim DeMint backs a 23% national sales tax. His Democratic opponent, Inez Tenenbaum, is blasting him for favoring price increases on everything from prescription drugs to baby formula.

Don't many experts argue that a consumption tax is the way to go?
Only if done right. That would require eliminating interest deductions and other tax breaks -- a tall order for politicians. But if Washington did adopt a well-designed consumption tax, [it] would be simpler than the current code, it would eliminate the double taxation of capital income [Bullshit! Two different entities, with separate legal existence, receive two different incomes. Each legal entity pays income tax on ITS income. There is no double-taxation, here. But, there IS double-taxation of the same income, earned by the same legal entity when it comes to the wages and salaries of individuals who earn less than or equal the current OASI ceiling . . .], and sharply reduce the use of shelters. And most economists believe it would boost growth at least by a few tenths of a percent each year. Economist Alan J. Auerbach of the University of California at Berkeley figures it would push up gross domestic product by 9% over several decades. But a consumption tax's biggest virtue, say supporters, is that it is fair. "You work and save. I work and don't. Why should you pay more tax than me over your lifetime?" [This is the fucking twilight-one, that's what it is.]asks Urban Institute senior fellow C. Eugene Steuerle, who helped draft the 1986 tax reform.

But doesn't it let the wealthy off the hook?
Even its biggest supporters concede that a consumption tax can be regressive. Because rich people spend a much smaller chunk of their income than do poor people, the wealthy would end up paying a far lower share of their resources in taxes.

Consumption taxes can have progressive rates that mimic today's system. But even that breaks down for the very rich, who would never spend enough to pay much tax. A tough estate tax might smooth things out. So could combining a VAT with an income tax that might kick in for taxpayers earning, say, $100,000 or more -- an idea proposed by Yale law professor Michael J. Graetz, a top Treasury Dept. aide in the Administration of former President George H.W. Bush. But for now that's an idea far beyond anything the Administration is considering.

How likely is Bush to achieve tax reform?
Depends on his priorities. If reelected, Bush will confront tax reform, overhauling Social Security, making his tax cuts permanent, and fixing the mangled Medicare bill that was passed in 2003. He won't be able to do it all. But don't be surprised if shuffling the tax deck isn't part of a second-term agenda.



What A "Fairer" Tax Code Might Look Like
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Dec 13 2004, 12:38 PM)
As long as the greater good outweighs the unintended stuff, it's still for the greater good.
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That would be the rational idea, yes.

How do you measure the greatest good, and who will do the measuring?

I believe that the affirmative case for differential taxation of income by source has yet to be made though. At least, not here.

Bart Katz
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Dec 13 2004, 11:50 AM)
That would be the rational idea, yes.

How do you measure the greatest good, and who will do the measuring?

I believe that the affirmative case for differential taxation of income by source has yet to be made though. At least, not here.
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You measure it the same way you measure anything of that type.
Nomarchy
Scene 1: A woman earns $100,000 in wages and pays personal income taxes on the entire amount, and payroll taxes on roughly $87k of it, this year.

Scene 2: Another woman is incorporated, pays herself $40,000 in wages, retains $60,000 in the corporation.

What taxes should she pay, and on what?

Scene 3: Next year, she trades the corporation (whose only asset is $60,000 in cash) for $60,000 in cash from a buyer.

What taxes should she pay, and on what?

lil bart
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 13 2004, 09:43 AM)
Nothing like enjoying ideological hegemony:
What A "Fairer" Tax Code Might Look Like
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See why I used to think your specialty was economics?

[center]
A+
[/center]
Nomarchy
QUOTE(lil bart @ Dec 13 2004, 11:07 AM)
See why I used to think your specialty was economics?

[center]
A+
[/center]
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I am sure A.v. will not be so charitable.
davisął
A Judge for Sale on EBay, Shipping Included, Isn't Laughing


By JEFFREY GETTLEMAN

Published: December 13, 2004


When Jerald R. Klein, a Manhattan housing court judge, got a call from a reporter yesterday morning, he had no idea why he was being bothered at home on the weekend.

He did not know that his face was all over eBay. He did not know that he was for sale.

"What are you talking about?" he said. "Yes, I am a housing court judge. But I'm not for sale."

According to a posting on eBay, an online auction house, the 55-year-old judge would go to the highest bidder. After four days, the best offer was $127.50.

The eBay advertisement, titled "Judge for Sale," showed a picture of Judge Klein sitting in a courtroom and grinning at the camera, and then listed a number of accusations criticizing the way the judge dispenses justice.

Free worldwide shipping was even included.

Judge Klein has spent 22 years untangling landlord-tenant disputes in New York City Civil Court. As he suspected, a disgruntled litigant was the behind the advertisement, which had eluded eBay authorities.

That litigant is Janet Schoenberg, who is being evicted on Thursday from her studio apartment in the East Village. She said she created the ad after exhausting all other avenues to attract attention to her case, which she said was being improperly handled by Judge Klein.

"In today's world, this is how people who are not celebrities can get their voice heard," said Ms. Schoenberg.

Ms. Schoenberg, who said that she had never sold anything on eBay and that it was "ridiculously easy" to make the ad, maintained that the listing was intended as a joke.

"I didn't expect anybody to actually bid on this," she said. "It was satire; it was parody."

Ms. Schoenberg posted the ad on Wednesday. By 10:18 yesterday morning, the site had drawn 6,400 hits and 21 bids, which Judge Klein did not find funny.

"I'm outraged that eBay would post this," the judge said from his home on Long Island. "I'd like to know their rules for this. I'd like to know what investigation they did before they put this out there."


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/13/nyregion...html?oref=login


Most of congress and all of the White House is for sale, if you got the way, they got the will.
Mizilus
Speaking of ethics, what ever happened to bernie kerik?

You know, the guy that you saw over the right shoulder of guilliani on 9/11 when he gave press conferences.

Yeah, the guy that got put in charge of security in I®aq.

The same guy the fascists wanted to put in charge of "homeland security".

A top cop in charge of homeland security that has no ethics?

Damn! You'd think he was a repuslickan bushlover.
davisął
I was reading an article about how the faith-based evangelicals are trying to control the state houses and introduce legislation that restricts abortion, promotes only abstinece targeted programs and advocates teaching of "intelligent design". I got all the way to the end and read this.



QUOTE
State Representative Cynthia Davis of Missouri prefiled two bills for the next session of the Legislature that she said "reflect what people want." One would remove the state's requirement that all forms of contraception and their potential health effects be taught in schools, leaving the focus on abstinence. Another would require publishers that sell biology textbooks to Missouri to include at least one chapter with alternative theories to evolution.

"These are common-sense, grass-roots ideas from the people I represent, and I'd be very surprised if a majority of legislators didn't feel they were the right solutions to these problems," Ms. Davis said.

"It's like when the hijackers took over those four planes on Sept. 11 and took people to a place where they didn't want to go," she added. "I think a lot of people feel that liberals have taken our country somewhere we don't want to go. I think a lot more people realize this is our country and we're going to take it back."



http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/13/national...ml?pagewanted=2

I believe that bitch just said anyone who was a liberal, or doesn't support her legislation can be legitimately compared to the terrorists of 9/11.


I'm sick and tired of this kind of BS.

Ohhhhhh, I'll tell you what, this kind of shit makes my blood boil. And people wonder why I don't like religion. It's lowlife scum like this lady who make me want to wretch. Force your twisted so-called "values" on me? Shove them sidewayssssssssss asssshole. And lil bart, I deleted SEVERAL paragraghs of reeeeeal nasty cursing.

Lars Larson's female counterpart was apparently elected State Rep of Missouri.

"Liberals are more dangerous to the US than Al Queda!!!"
Mizilus
and people wonder why I dont like repuslickans.
davisął
no kidding.
Art.
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 13 2004, 09:50 AM)
Yes. Income is income. Every worker already pays taxes at all levels on the cash he/she uses to make the payments that support or enhance his/her human capital, as well.

Your house is not earning income. You're earning income from renting that house out.  If/when you sell it, you earn additional income (the capitalized net present value of a stream of rents, over a period of so many years).

When one earns wages or salaries from selling the use of his productive capacity for a time-period, those wages and salaries are double-taxed (payroll and income taxes). One then takes the net proceeds and uses a variable but significant portion to "produce/reproduce" that productive capacity so that it is "rentable" anew. When it earns one additional wages and salaries, the latter are double-taxed again.

An income tax taxes income.
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Nobody mentioned rent.
Art.
QUOTE(lil bart @ Dec 13 2004, 11:07 AM)
See why I used to think your specialty was economics?

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Because he knows about Google?
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 13 2004, 03:50 PM)
Nobody mentioned rent.
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So, how is your house "earning [you] income"?

That's what I get for trying to make sense of elliptical statements . . .
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 12 2004, 10:59 PM)
So my house is earning income I should be taxed on again when I sell it? Even though I already pay taxes at all levels on the cash I use to make my mortgage payement?
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Please explain what you mean, then.

How is your "house [...] earning income" if you're not renting it out?

An asset that appreciates in market value does not produce income subject to income tax until that appreciated value is "realized".

Art.
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 13 2004, 11:19 AM)
I am sure A.v. will not be so charitable.
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It's a basic disagreement of economic strategies. No matter how well you articulate leftist economic ideas and ideals I'm not going to agree with the majority of them. Nothing wrong with disagreement. Where I get driven to irritation is the bouncing around between peripheral tactical distractions and injected jargon until the discussion has taken a random detour. I suppose I could fight fire with fire, but I don't LIKE to inject terminology from my old econ textbooks. Don't want to post academic pieces done by others either. Don't like to inject Macro and micro specific terms because there is little need for it.

I didn't love economics, but I understand it well enough to figure out most concepts if they are articulated with an eye to clarity rather than obscurity. We aren't even shifting demand and supply curves or plotting equilibrium points on price and quantity graphs. There is no reason the discussion should bog down in jargon at this lowly strategic point.
Art.
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 13 2004, 04:04 PM)
Please explain what you mean, then.

How is your "house [...] earning income" if you're not renting it out?

An asset that appreciates in market value does not produce income subject to income tax until that appreciated value is "realized".
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If I am going to have to realize my income at some point I better plan as if it were earning income all along.

Or should I just plan on one year with an extra 100k in income?
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 13 2004, 04:31 PM)
It's a basic disagreement of economic strategies. No matter how well you articulate leftist economic ideas and ideals  I'm not going to agree with the majority of them. Nothing wrong with disagreement. Where I get driven to irritation  is the bouncing around between peripheral  tactical distractions and  injected  jargon until the discussion has taken a random detour.  I suppose I could fight fire with fire, but I don't LIKE to inject terminology from my old econ textbooks. Don't want to post academic pieces done by others either. Don't like to inject Macro and micro  specific terms because there is little need for it.

  I didn't love economics, but I understand it well enough to figure out most concepts if they are articulated with an eye to clarity rather than obscurity. We aren't even shifting demand and supply curves or plotting equilibrium points on  price and quantity graphs. There is no reason the discussion should bog down in jargon at this lowly strategic point.
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I do not see what all of the above has to do with anything. I explained to you why I brought up positive externalities. It wasn't a big deal. You challenged my awkward prose, and I sought to clarify.

The rest was commentary on a businessweek analysis of possible tax-reform strategies by a second Bush administration, and a lively discussion, involving many more people than me, on the simple question of whether all income from all sources should be treated as "ordinary income" for income tax purposes.

Nomarchy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 13 2004, 04:34 PM)
If I am going to have to realize my income at some point I better plan as if it were earning income all along.

Or should I just plan on one year with an extra 100k in income?
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Plan all you want. Until you realize the appreciation in value (after all, the market value of an asset may drop precipitously, as well) of an asset, you have no income from that asset. Thus, no income tax on it. When one has income, one has to pay income taxes on it.

People pay for their education with after-tax income. Tell me that you're proposing that any appreciation of the value of their productive capacity that they realize upon completing their degree or training should be income-tax free and you'd be consistent.
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