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davis¹³
user posted image

Scooter Libby.


Wednesday, Oct. 5, 2005 9:51 p.m. EDT

Report: Plamegate Indictments May Be Soon


Investigation in the case of the leaked identity of CIA operative Valerie Plame may yield indictments in the next few days.

Reuters reported late Wednesday that federal prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald will decide within days if he plans to bring indictments.

The wire service said that Fitzgerald "was expected to notify officials by letter if they have become targets" � an indication that he is ready to seek a criminal indictment against them.

Fitzgerald's two-year probe into the Plame case is expected to end in the next month. Fitzgerald has several options, including bringing indictments, making plea agreements with targets, or concluding the case with no prosecution.



Press reports have indicated that senior Bush administration officials, including political adviser Karl Rove and Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, are among the key persons of interest in Fitzgerald's probe.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/10/5/215203.shtml
davis¹³
user posted image

Karl Rove.

Rove to testify a 4th time
Prosecutors say Bush adviser still could be charged with leaking name of CIA agent

BY GLENN THRUSH
WASHINGTON BUREAU; This story was supplemented with wire service reports.

October 7, 2005

WASHINGTON - Top presidential adviser Karl Rove will testify for a fourth time in the Valerie Plame case - and prosecutors are saying there's no guarantee he won't eventually be charged with leaking the former CIA agent's name to reporters, his lawyer said yesterday.

In a possible danger sign for Bush's political guru, Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald "indicated no decision had been made whether or not to bring charges against Mr. Rove," said Rove's attorney Robert D. Luskin.


"There never has been any guarantee he wouldn't be indicted," added Luskin.

He said Fitzgerald was accepting the Utah-born political operative's earlier offer to testify again before the grand jury.

Still, several people directly familiar with the investigation told The Associated Press that Fitzgerald sent a letter to Rove with the warning that prosecutors could no longer guarantee the presidential aide wouldn't be indicted. The prosecutor did not give Rove similar warnings before Rove's three earlier grand jury appearances, according to the report.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/na...lnews-headlines
Bee
More hacks

QUOTE
Welcome to the Hackocracy

Post date 10.06.05 | Issue date 10.17.05

The events of the past months have awakened the press to the true nature of the Bush administration. It is overrun with hacks--that is, government officials with waifish resumés padded like the Michelin man, whose political connections have won them important national responsibilities. But, in the face of this rush to flay the Bush hacks, we should consider their achievements.

To fully appreciate the virtues of this administration, we must first recall the administration that came before. Back in the 1990s, Bill Clinton recruited a small army of Arkansans and Rhodes scholars to the West Wing. Although there was the occasional kindergarten buddy who was out of his depth, most of these FOBs (friends of Bill) were insufferable wonks who never let you forget their dense resumés. President Bush put his finger on the smug mindset of these Clinton meritocrats when he said, "They're all of a sudden smarter than the average person because they happen to have an Ivy League degree."

Now we can consider this problem solved. The Bush era has taken government out of the hands of the hyper-qualified and given it back to the common man. This new breed may not have what the credentialists sneeringly call "relevant experience." Their alma maters may not always be "accredited." But they have something the intellectual snobs of yore never had: loyalty. If not loyalty to country, then at least loyalty to party and to the guy who got them the job. And their loyalty has been rewarded: Even if they fail, they know they can move up the chain until they find a job they can succeed in or until a major American city is destroyed, whichever comes first.

The hackocracy, of course, reflects the virtues of its architect, George W. Bush. Like Michael Brown and lesser known hacks, the president hasn't allowed personal setbacks to stymie him. The old-fashioned values of fortitude and family have given him the strength to rebound from a doomed oil company called Arbusto, a doomed congressional candidacy, and catastrophic failures at Harken Energy. That may be why, while cronies populate every presidency, no administration has etched the principles of hackocracy into its governing philosophy as deeply as this one. If there's an underappreciated corner of the bureaucracy to fill, it has found just the crony (or college roommate of a crony), party operative (or cousin of a party operative) to fill it. To honor this achievement, we've drawn up a list of the 15 biggest Bush administration hacks--from the highest levels of government to the civil servant rank and file. The tnr 15 is a diverse group--from the assistant secretary of commerce who started his career by supplying Bush with Altoids to the Republican National Committee chair-turned-Veterans Affairs secretary who forgot about wounded Iraq war vets--but they all share two things: responsibility and inexperience.

Although he could not possibly have envisioned what Bush has accomplished, Theodore Roosevelt delivered the single most poetic appreciation of this hackocratic style: "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, and comes short again and again...."

Bush, who may or may not be familiar with the Bull Moose, has lived and governed by this dictum. Never before have we so rewarded the valiant striver who comes up short by placing the fate of the nation in his hands. Never before have so many gotten so far with so little.

15: Israel Hernandez
Assistant Secretary for Trade Promotion and Director General of the United States and Foreign Commercial Service, Department of Commerce (confirmation pending)

Fresh out of college and seeking a job on George W. Bush's 1994 Texas gubernatorial campaign, Israel Hernandez showed up an hour early for his interview with the candidate. Impressed by his punctuality, Bush hired Hernandez within days and eventually invited him to live with the Bush family in their Dallas home, where Hernandez reportedly became like an older brother to Jenna and Barbara Bush. Serving as Bush's travel aide for the next few years, "He was always there with the Altoids, the speech box, the schedule, whatever I needed," Bush later wrote in his autobiography. After getting a master's degree at (where else?) the George Bush School of Government and Public Service at Texas A&M (named after H.W.), Hernandez--or, as Bush called him, "Altoid Boy"--joined Bush's 2000 presidential campaign and later worked in the White House as an assistant to Karl Rove. There, he helped choreograph Bush's events and was once made part of the first lady's official delegation on a trip to Europe so that he could keep an eye on Jenna. All of which, apparently, was good preparation for managing more than 1,800 employees in more than 80 countries, because, earlier this year, Bush nominated the 35-year-old Hernandez to serve as an assistant secretary of Commerce and to run the United States and Foreign Commercial Service, the federal government's key export promotion agency.



14: Andrew Maner
Chief Financial Officer, Department of Homeland Security

Andrew Maner comes to his job with unimpeachable credentials--not in finance or accounting, admittedly, but as a dues-payer in the Bush family empire. In the first Bush administration, Maner helped to plan presidential travel and served as a junior press aide. Later, he followed the defeated George H.W. Bush back to Texas to be a spokesman and political fixer for the ex-president. After several private sector years working in information technology and procurement, he took over the U.S. Customs Office of Trade Relations, whose mission is to foster "positive relationships with the international trade community." Billing himself as a trade expert, Maner called the Customs gig a "logical next step in [my] career." Less logical, however, was his leap (after a short stint as chief of staff to the Customs commissioner) to managing DHS's sprawling $40 billion budget. Given his slim management background, it's convenient that Maner landed the only Cabinet department CFO slot that doesn't require Senate confirmation. Perhaps it also explains why, when DHS officials recently unveiled a revamped organizational chart, Maner's office was accidentally omitted. (Hack bonus: "Of all the things we do in the Department, charts may not be our strength," said the Department's undersecretary for management, Janet Hale.)



13: Claire Buchan
Chief of Staff, Department of Commerce

As deputy press secretary at the White House, Claire Buchan gained a reputation as a kept-in-the-dark spokesbot who was often relegated to baby-sitting reporters on long trips. But all that changed last spring, when Buchan was promoted to chief of staff at the Commerce Department, where she now helps the secretary oversee a $6.3 billion budget and some 38,000 employees. Buchan owes this stroke of good fortune to her years in the Bush family trenches. Previously, she served as a public affairs underling for the Treasury Department under former President Bush, a flack for the Republican National Committee, and (during the Clinton years) an image czar for the lawn care, extermination, and appliance repair company ServiceMaster. Some of Buchan's erstwhile colleagues in the White House press corps were left speechless when her new assignment was announced in February. One White House reporter who worked closely with Buchan for five years called her "the most useless in a Bush universe of enforced uselessness. She took empty banality to a new low."



12: Paul Hoffman
Deputy Assistant Secretary for Fish and Wildlife and Parks, Department of the Interior

Paul Hoffman is an avid angler, hunter, skier, and horseman. So it was only natural to tap this former chief of the Chamber of Commerce in Cody, Wyoming, (population 9,000) to help run the National Park Service. Sure, Hoffman had no parks experience other than recreating in them and, as head of the Cody Chamber, advocating for more snowmobiles in nearby Yellowstone National Park. But he had spent four years in the 1980s working as the state director for then-Wyoming Representative Dick Cheney. Since arriving at the Interior Department in 2002, Hoffman has demonstrated a knack for thinking outside the box. In April 2003, he went against the wishes of the staff of Yellowstone and asked the U.N. World Heritage Committee to remove the park from its "In Danger List." Last year, he overruled geologists at the Grand Canyon National Park and instructed the park's visitor centers to stock a creationist book that explained how God made the canyon 6,000 years ago, ordering up a flood to wipe out "the wickedness of man." And, this year, Hoffman pushed for wholesale revisions to the Park Service's management policies. Instead of giving priority to protecting natural resources, Hoffman proposed that managers emphasize multiple uses for their parks--including snowmobiling, Jet-Skiing, grazing, drilling, and mining. After Hoffman's proposed reforms set off a firestorm of criticism from Park Service employees and members of Congress--"The inmates are in charge of the asylum," one Park Service retiree complained--the Bush administration claimed that Hoffman's suggestions were "no longer in play" and that he had merely been playing "devil's advocate."



11: Patrick Rhode
Acting Deputy Director Federal Emergency Management Agency

As acting deputy director of fema, 36-year-old Patrick Rhode had, until recently, the unenviable job of backstopping the hapless Michael Brown, a man who needed much backstopping. Unfortunately, it's not clear that Rhode is much more qualified than Brown to be managing the nation's worst disasters. Before joining fema, the biggest disaster he had helped manage was the Small Business Administration (see Hector Barreto)--and even that was something of a stretch. Rhode entered federal government in 2001 as deputy director of advance operations for the Bush White House, a job he had also held for Bush's 2000 campaign. Never fear, though: Rhode has covered disasters--as a TV anchor for local network affiliates in Alabama and Arkansas, in which capacity he developed "an acute interest in what responders do in times of crises." Perhaps not acute enough. He recently said that >fema's response to Katrina was "probably one of the most efficient and effective responses in the country's history."



10: Steven Law
Deputy Secretary, Department of Labor

Since 2004, Steven Law has helped run a department with 17,000 employees and an annual budget of over $50 billion. Pretty good for a guy who started out as a lowly Capitol Hill legislative aide. In 1990, Law's boss, Kentucky Senator Mitch McConnell, tapped him to serve as campaign manager for his reelection race. Law didn't disappoint, running a notably nasty campaign that insinuated McConnell's Democratic opponent was both mentally ill and a drug addict. Law returned to Washington as McConnell's chief of staff, and, six years later, when McConnell was chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee, he made Law the group's executive director, relying on him for help in vacuuming up campaign contributions for Republican Senate candidates and thwarting campaign finance reform legislation. In each job he did for McConnell, Law proved to be an unusually dedicated--and worshipful--worker. Asked once by Campaigns & Elections to name his political heroes, Law answered: "Ronald Reagan, for his vision of America; Abraham Lincoln, for his moral statesmanship; and Mitch McConnell, for his principle and tenacity." It was little wonder, then, that, in 2001, the newly appointed Labor Secretary Elaine Chao--who happens to be McConnell's wife--hired Law as her chief of staff, a stepping stone to his current position; after all, once you've found such loyal help, you want to keep it in the family.



9: Hal Stratton
Chairman, Consumer Product Safety Commission

A former state representative and attorney general in New Mexico, Hal Stratton never asked for his current job, protecting American citizens from such dangers as lead-laced toy jewelry and flammable Halloween costumes. Instead, the former geology major who went on to co-chair the local Lawyers for Bush during the 2000 campaign initially wanted a job in the Interior Department. "That didn't work out," he told the Albuquerque Journal, "but I told them, 'Don't count me out' ... and they came up with this." "This" being the not-unimportant position of deciding which of 15,000 types of consumer products pose a health risk and might need to be recalled. Shortly before Stratton's confirmation hearing, Senator Ron Wyden expressed concern that Stratton "has no demonstrable track record on public safety." (Bill Clinton's cpsc chief, Ann Brown, spent 20 years as a consumer advocate and served as vice president of the Consumer Federation of America.) But now he does have a track record: rare public hearings and a paucity of new safety regulations, as well as regular (often industry-sponsored) travels to such destinations as China, Costa Rica, Belgium, Spain, and Mexico. But at least Stratton won't let personal bias influence him: Despite saying that he wouldn't let his own daughters play with water yo-yos--rubber toys that are outlawed in several countries because of concerns that children could be strangled by them--he refused to ban them in the United States.



8: Mark McKinnon
Member, Broadcasting Board of Governors (confirmation pending)

The Broadcasting Board of Governors oversees Voice of America and other U.S. media beamed to the Middle East; and, in the spirit of accurately representing the United States, it reserves seats for members of both major political parties. For one of the four Democratic slots, President Bush recently nominated Mark McKinnon, or "M-Cat" as he affectionately calls him. M-Cat's Democratic credentials, however, are somewhat wanting. McKinnon's career highlights include overseeing media strategy for Bush's two presidential bids, in which capacity he masterminded a spot predicting that John Kerry would "Weaken [the] Fight Against Terrorists." And, in last year's campaign, his company, Maverick Media, accepted over $177 million in fees from Bush and the Republican National Committee--money we assume was not intended to help return the Democrats to power.



7: Stewart Simonson
Assistant Secretary for Public Health and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Health and Human Services

According to his official biography, Stewart Simonson is the Health and Human Services Department's point man "on matters related to bioterrorism and other public health emergencies." Hopefully, he has taken crash courses on smallpox and avian flu, because, prior to joining HHS in 2001, Simonson's background was not in public health, but ... public transit. He'd previously been a top official at the delay-plagued, money-hemorrhaging passenger rail company Amtrak. Before that, he was an adviser to Wisconsin Governor Tommy Thompson, specializing in crime and prison policy. When Thompson became HHS secretary in 2001, he hired Simonson as a legal adviser and promoted him to his current post shortly before leaving the Department last year. Simonson's biography boasts that he "supervised policy development for Project BioShield," a program designed to speed the manufacture of crucial vaccines and antidotes. "That effort, however, has by most accounts bogged down and shown few results," The Washington Post reported last month.
Bee
QUOTE
6: Hector Barreto
Administrator, Small Business Administration

No one can accuse Hector Barreto of being unfamiliar with small business. His Los Angeles firm, Barreto Insurance & Financial Services Company, had only ten employees. Alas, now that he is in charge of a bigger operation--the Small Business Administration (SBA) has over 3,000 employees, a budget of about $600 million, and a portfolio of loans totaling $45 billion--Barreto is struggling. Last year, the SBA failed to notify Congress that it needed additional funding for its largest and most popular loan program and was forced to temporarily shutter it because, as Barreto's spokesperson explained, it was "out of money." Meanwhile, the SBA was doing such a poor job managing the $5 billion in loans the government set aside to help small businesses recover from September 11 that, according to an Associated Press investigation, the vast majority of the money went to businesses not affected by the terrorist attacks--including a South Dakota country radio station, a Utah dog boutique, and more than 100 Dunkin' Donuts and Subway sandwich shops. Last month, the Senate Small Business Committee, prompted by complaints from Gulf Coast small-business owners, held hearings on the SBA's response to Hurricane Katrina. Barreto pledged that his agency would approve Katrina-related loans in days, not months, but a SBA deputy conceded in late September that, out of 12,000 loan applications from small businesses affected by the hurricane, the SBA had so far approved only 76.







5: David Wilkins
American Ambassador to Canada

An unspoken rule dictates that politically appointed ambassadors should be seen and not heard--or, at the very least, not heard provoking international incidents with close U.S. allies. But David Wilkins--a former South Carolina legislator whose chief contribution to world affairs before this year was raising $200,000 for President Bush's 2004 campaign--is not one to stand on ceremony. Though he'd only been to Canada once (Niagara Falls) prior to his nomination in April, the Bush Ranger assured Congress that "I won't be afraid to talk about the tough issues." A man of his word, Wilkins promptly escalated the two countries' dispute over softwood lumber by accusing Canadians of being overly emotional and by threatening an all-out trade war that would have affected multiple industries, from broadcasting to eggs. The Canadian government fought back, however, and, although generally disinclined toward mea culpas--"You talking about regrets by the United States?" he asked a Canadian reporter with incredulity--Wilkins eventually admitted his approach to the lumber dispute had been flawed. "My attempt to bring the emotion down increased the emotion," he said. To demonstrate his diplomatic sensitivity, he continues to open speeches with a jolly, "Bonjour, y'all!"



4: Jim Nicholson
Secretary, Department of Veterans Affairs

In contrast to the four most recent VA heads--who had previously held leadership positions with Disabled American Veterans, the Department of Defense, a state-level VA department, and VA itself--Jim Nicholson brings a refreshing lack of experience to veterans' advocacy. Although he is one of the country's 25 million military veterans, Nicholson--who, after Vietnam, went into real-estate law and development in Colorado--is best known as a campaign veteran. He chaired the Republican National Committee from 1997 to 2000, raising close to $380 million for the 2000 cycle. In Bush's first term, Nicholson was rewarded with the ambassadorship to the Holy See. But he traded vespers for vets last February, joining his brother John, who was already head of the National Cemetery Administration. In June, he admitted that VA had underestimated the number of veterans who would be seeking medical treatment this year by nearly 80,000 because it had failed to take into account the surge in enrollment by veterans of the Afghanistan and Iraq conflicts--13,700 of whom have suffered blown-off limbs, bullet wounds, and the like. The miscalculation was a surprise to Congress, since Nicholson had written on April 5: "I can assure you that VA does not need [additional money] to continue to provide timely, quality service." Republican House Appropriations Committee Chair Jerry Lewis said VA's failure to identify the problem and notify Congress earlier "borders on stupidity."



3: Rear Admiral Cristina Beato
Acting Assistant Secretary for Health, Department of Health and Human Services

In June 2004, Cristina Beato admitted to her hometown newspaper that she hadn't paid much attention to the details of her resumé. That's too bad, because those silly little details seem to have stalled her confirmation for assistant secretary for health for over two years now. Beato said she earned a master's of public health in occupational medicine from the University of Wisconsin (but the university doesn't even offer that degree). She claimed to be "one of the principal leaders who revolutionized medical education in American universities by implementing the Problem Based learning curriculum" (but the curriculum was developed while Beato was still a medical student). She listed "medical attaché" to the American Embassy in Turkey as a job she held in 1986 (but that position didn't exist until 1995). She also boasted that she had "established" the University of New Mexico's occupational health clinic (but the clinic existed before she was hired, and there was even another medical director before her). For her part, Beato has offered a simple explanation: English is her third language, after French and her native Spanish, and sometimes the language barrier is just too much to handle. How does one say "pants on fire" in Spanish?



2: John Pennington
Director, Region Ten, Federal Emergency Management Agency

The Pacific Northwest is a catastrophe-prone area-- from tsunamis and volcanic eruptions in Washington and Oregon to wildfires in Idaho and oil pipeline ruptures in Alaska. That's why former Washington Representative Jennifer Dunn knew that fema needed "a natural" to head its disaster response efforts in the region. And that's exactly what Dunn said she found in 38-year-old John Pennington. Pennington would have to be a natural, given his utter lack of disaster-relief experience. A former state representative who ran a coffee business with his wife in rural Washington, Pennington served as Cowlitz County co-chairman of the Bush campaign in 2000. Dunn, who had been the Bush campaign's state chairperson, approached Pennington about the fema post, to which he was appointed in 2001. Alas, in the wake of former fema Director Michael Brown's resignation, Pennington's disaster of a resumé has come under increasing scrutiny. Last month, The Seattle Times reported that, just before he was appointed to his fema post, Pennington received his bachelor's degree from an unaccredited California correspondence school that federal investigators later described as a "diploma mill." Pennington's defenders have responded to questions about his qualifications by arguing that he has surrounded himself with competent staff.



1: Harriet Miers
White House Counsel, Nominee for Associate Justice of the Supreme Court

When we started researching this guide to the Bush hackocracy, nobody was sure who would wind up as number one. Competition was fierce. From under every bureaucratic rock, out scurried a Bush buddy. But we endeavored to be fair. There was spirited debate over the nuances between merely mediocre officials blindly loyal to the president and those with a demonstrated history of incompetence. (Alas, Andrew Card wound up on the cutting room floor.) Some argued that, by our own strict criteria, the president himself should be judged the number-one hack, but our deference to the wisdom of the electorate kept him off the list.

Truth be told, Harriet Miers could have easily slipped through quality control. But fate intervened. On Monday, Bush nominated Miers, the personal lawyer who fixed the paperwork on his fishing cabin, to the Supreme Court of the United States. Suddenly, it was no longer a competition. "I picked the best person I could find," Bush said Tuesday. And so have we.

We'd like to think that our process was slightly less arbitrary than the president's. Judging such matters is admittedly subjective, but if one were to express hackishness as a formula, it would look something like the adjacent equation.

Miers's croniness quotient is high. After all, the president has given her five jobs over the past eleven years. And senior White House aides have repeatedly remarked about her devotion to Bush. A Bush official's Danger to the Republic factor can generally be gleaned by the importance of his or her new job. And, while we grant that some unqualified candidates have turned out to be capable justices (see Jeffrey Rosen, "Judge Not,"), Miers's lifetime appointment to the highest position Bush is authorized to fill is like winning the hack lotto.

What, then, about Miers's qualifications? This is where she left the competition in the dust. Take, for example, her two-year stint on the Dallas City Council. Although she may not have been guided by any awe-inspiring understanding of constitutional law, she is credited with calming down a crowd of protesters after a county commissioner punched a police officer.

In announcing his choice, Bush pointed to her storied career as chairman of the Texas Lottery Commission. Although the Commission has historically not produced many Supreme Court justices, Bush has reason to be pleased with her lottery service. Miers may not have dealt with issues like civil rights or the death penalty, but she dealt with bingo. As chairman, she opined that she wanted all bingo-related games "to look and feel and smell like the game of bingo," which seems like a reasonable position.

Miers's solid job at the Lottery Commission and her other work for Bush catapulted her into the upper ranks of the White House. After three years as staff secretary, she beat out Brett M. Kavanaugh, a bright conservative lawyer with a John Roberts-like resumé, for the job of White House counsel. It was this job that positioned her to lead Bush's search for a court nominee.

This is a quite a resumé, even before getting to some of Miers's legal writings. A search of the Nexis news database returns three articles by Miers. One is an opinion piece urging legislative calm in the wake of a string of deadly shootings. The second reveals Miers, who ran the corporate law firm of Locke Liddell & Sapp, to be an expert on a legal issue of great importance to the American people: managing the merger of two firms. The final article is a 1996 ABA Journal piece advertising the American Bar Association's new telephone seminars. "If you have heard any of the buzzwords of product promotions lately," she writes cheerfully, "we hope you will spot 'ABA Connection.'"

In hindsight, Harriet Miers was always the obvious choice for the Supreme Court. She is the logical conclusion of the unchecked Bush administration hackocracy. Bush's case for Miers actually rests on her being a crony. "Because of our closeness," he said Tuesday, "I know the character of the person."

In Federalist No. 76, Alexander Hamilton warned that, in presenting nominations to the Senate, a president "would be both ashamed and afraid" to nominate cronies--or, as Hamilton called them, "obsequious instruments of his pleasure." Maybe politics was different back in the 1780s, but we have watched Bush appoint many obsequious instruments of his pleasure. It may be his legacy: George W. Bush--he took the shame and fear out of cronyism.
Tom Servo
It all started with Andy Jackson's "kitchen cabinet". Been going downhill ever since.
Bee
QUOTE(Tom Servo @ Oct 7 2005, 06:45 PM)
It all started with Andy Jackson's "kitchen cabinet". Been going downhill ever since.
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Nah, it's been going up then down then up then down a little more...
Tom Servo
Pretty tough to start complaining now, after accepting it when the guys from "your team" were in charge.
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(Grigorii @ Oct 7 2005, 05:15 PM)
very weak...
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connect the dots...
Bee
QUOTE(Tom Servo @ Oct 7 2005, 07:03 PM)
Pretty tough to start complaining now, after accepting it when the guys from "your team" were in charge.
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"My team?"

Since when have the Greens been in charge?

laugh.gif
Mizilus
laugh.gif


cartoons r funny!
RoccoR
Repub_Bub, et al,

No, none at all.

QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Oct 7 2005, 12:09 PM)
Do you not find a wee bit of a disconnect here?
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(COMMENT)

Questions are one thing, and answers are another.

The answer to the question sets the Premise for follow-on discussions.

But I noticed that the question still goes unanswered. This is what we call: Begging the Question It too is a Philosophical Fallacy.

Most Respectfully,
Bee
An Enigma Wrapped in a Mystery. Or sumthin.

smile.gif
Bee
Why have the Oil companies involved at all? The U.S. should built "strategic reserve refineries." Might as well belong to the People, as we're paying for them and own the lands they plan on building them on.

QUOTE
House Narrowly Approves Bill to Promote Refineries

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: October 7, 2005
Filed at 6:18 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The House voted to encourage U.S. oil companies to build new refineries Friday in a raucous roll call that Republican leaders extended 40 minutes while they buttonholed their own members to avoid an embarrassing defeat.

Democrats crying ''shame, shame'' -- and some GOP moderates -- called the bill a sop to rich oil companies that would do nothing to ease energy costs including expected soaring heating bills this winter.

The bill would streamline government permits for refineries, open federal lands including closed military bases for future refinery construction and limit the number of gasoline blends refiners have to produce, eliminating many blends now designed to reduce air pollution.


President Bush welcomed the vote. ''I commend the House for passing legislation that would increase our refining capacity and help address the cost of gasoline, diesel fuels, and jet fuels,'' he said in a statement.

The legislation, which now goes to the Senate, passed 212-210, but not before a standoff on the House floor. Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., asked at one point, ''Is this the House of a Banana Republic.''

It looked as if the bill was going down to defeat, two votes shy of approval. Democrats to no avail called for gaveling the vote closed as GOP leaders lobbied their own members to switch votes and support the bill.

''He worked me over a little,'' said Rep. Bill Young, R-Fla., among the last group of lawmakers to switch to support the legislation, referring to his discussions with House Speaker Dennis Hastert of Illinois.

Rep. Tom DeLay, who recently stepped down temporarily as majority leader after being indicted in Texas over a campaign finance issue, was as active as ever, administering pressure on wavering lawmakers in the crowded, noisy House chamber.

Finally, long after the vote had been scheduled to close, two GOP votes switched, providing the Republican victory. A tie would have killed the bill. ''Shame, shame, shame,'' came a chorus from the Democratic side of the aisle.

Afterward, Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi of California called it all ''a shameless display of the Republican culture of corruption,'' a theme she has used in recent days on a number of issues since DeLay's indictment in Texas on conspiracy and money laundering charges in connection with campaign finance activities.

Rep. Joe Barton, R-Texas, who had predicted a close vote, said he was not aware of ''any deals'' being made to get the last votes. No Democrats voted for the legislation, although three initially favored it, only to change their minds after talking to Pelosi and Rep. Steny Hoyer of Maryland, the second-ranking Democrat.

Supporters of the measure said that Hurricanes Katrina and Rita made clear that the country needed more refineries, including new ones outside of the Gulf region. No new refinery has been built since 1976, although large refineries have been expanded to meet growing demand.

Critics of the legislation argued a cash-rich industry with huge profits over the past year shouldn't need government help to build refineries. They said the bill would allow the oil industry to avoid environmental regulations and would lead to dirtier air.

Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich., accused GOP leaders of using ''the hardships and devastation of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita ... to pass Republican and industry wish lists'' that would do nothing to curtail gasoline prices or help people facing huge heating bills this winter.

Pelosi called the bill a rehash of ''all the special favors to the industry that were too extreme'' for Congress last summer when it passed energy legislation.

Barton said the bill simply would give industry more certainty that a refinery project will not be delayed in government red tape.

Opponents said the bill would stifle legitimate lawsuits against refinery projects and in some cases override state or local objections if a refinery were located on federal land. A community or citizens group would have to pay an oil company's legal costs whether they won or lost a lawsuit challenging a refinery under one provision in the bill.

Limiting the number of gasoline blends refiners would have to produce to six could hinder the ability of states and cities to meet federal air quality requirements, according to state and county clean air officials, who lobbied against the legislation.

Others opposed to the bill were the National League of Cities, nine state attorneys general, and various environmental organizations.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/business/A...ina-Energy.html


States rights?

Wrong.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE
No Democrats voted for the legislation, although three initially favored it, only to change their minds after talking to Pelosi and Rep. Steny Hoyer of Maryland, the second-ranking Democrat.


I know what they call that when DeLay did it. laugh.gif


"The people" own Pemex too. Doesn't do them a damn bit of good, and even the corruption doesn't pay as well as it should.
Bee
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Oct 7 2005, 09:16 PM)
I know what they call that when DeLay did it.  laugh.gif
"The people" own Pemex too. Doesn't do them a damn bit of good, and even the corruption doesn't pay as well as it should.
[right][snapback]134671[/snapback][/right]


Hey, all is fair before the vote. Holding the vote open to strong arm folks is what is objectionable.

This is America. We do things better then the folks in Mexico do. Don't we? Seems to me publically owned electic companies do much better for their customers, at any rate.

Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Bee @ Oct 7 2005, 06:20 PM)
Hey, all is fair before the vote. Holding the vote open to strong arm folks is what is objectionable.

[right][snapback]134673[/snapback][/right]



Agreed.

QUOTE
This is America. We do things better then the folks in Mexico do. Don't we? Seems to me publically owned electic companies do much better for their customers, at any rate.


Mexico is socialist, of course we do things better.
Bee
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Oct 7 2005, 09:27 PM)
Agreed.
Mexico is socialist, of course we do things better.
[right][snapback]134677[/snapback][/right]


So is Norway.

Mexico is not exactly a model state.
Arturo_Vandelay
It helps to start rich. A LOT.
Friend Judy
QUOTE
Flanigan Withdraws as Nominee for Deputy Attorney General
By Dan Eggen and R. Jeffrey Smith
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, October 8, 2005; Page A03

The Bush administration's choice for deputy attorney general has withdrawn his nomination amid mounting questions from Senate Democrats over his dealings with indicted Republican lobbyist Jack Abramoff and over his role in shaping controversial interrogation policies.
Timothy E. Flanigan wrote President Bush on Thursday that he was dropping out as a candidate because of "uncertainty concerning the timing of my confirmation," which has been delayed several times since Bush nominated him in May.

But members of the Senate Judiciary Committee said they were surprised by Flanigan's decision, given that the panel had just scheduled a second hearing on Oct. 18 and had agreed to vote on Flanigan Oct. 20. Aides said that a new nominee will take longer than that to vet and approve.

If Flanigan had appeared to testify at a second hearing, he was likely to face additional questioning from Democrats in two areas of recent controversy: the administration's decision-making on the treatment of detainees in the war on terrorism; and links between senior administration officials and Abramoff, who is the subject of a broad federal investigation of his lobbying activities and has been indicted on bank fraud charges in an unrelated case in Florida.

Many of the committee's Democrats had accused Flanigan of dodging questions and said his withdrawal should not be used to close off further inquiries. (snip)

Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales -- who was confirmed amid his own controversy earlier this year -- has struggled to fill many key slots and has complained to Senate leaders about delays in the nomination process. The head of the Criminal Division, Alice Stevens Fisher, was recently given a recess appointment by Bush after her April confirmation stalled.

Flanigan served as Gonzales's deputy in the White House counsel's office, where he participated in White House discussions about an Aug. 1, 2002, memo prepared by the Justice Department suggesting strategies that officials could use to defend themselves against criminal prosecution for torture.

The memo, drafted at the request of the CIA, contended that only physically punishing acts "of an extreme nature" would be prosecutable, and that those committing torture with express presidential authority or without the intent to commit harm were probably immune from prosecution.

During at least one of the meetings attended by Flanigan, those involved heard detailed descriptions of the interrogation methods the CIA wanted to use, such as open-handed slapping, the threat of live burial and "waterboarding," a technique that produces the sensation of drowning.
(snip)

In the Abramoff case, Flanigan had direct dealings with the lobbyist after he left the White House and became Tyco's general counsel; in that post, he was responsible for overseeing a contract Tyco signed in 2003 with Greenberg Traurig, Abramoff's employer at the time.

Abramoff had promised to help defeat proposals for imposing tax penalties on firms -- such as Tyco -- that were incorporated in offshore banking havens, and he bragged to Flanigan about his connections to then-House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) and to White House senior adviser Karl Rove, according to Flanigan's statements to the committee last month.

In April 2004, Greenberg Traurig informed Tyco that Abramoff had misspent $1.5 million of the more than $2 million that Tyco had paid him in lobbying fees, by diverting the funds to companies that Abramoff controlled. Flanigan assured the committee, in his written answers, that he had cooperated in the firm's investigation and also that Tyco had turned over pertinent evidence to the Justice Department.

But the Democrats then wondered why Flanigan -- who said he was "shocked and disappointed" by Greenberg Traurig's disclosure -- had not caught the alleged misconduct himself. Flanigan responded that Abramoff had fooled even his own employer. (more)


I'm sure the Dems are dissappointed at not being able to drag out the whole Abramoff mess.

And I'm also sure that the Justice Dept. is going to have a whole lot of trouble filling their vacancies, as long as they insist on filling them with pro-torture appointees.





davis¹³
QUOTE
suggesting strategies that officials could use to defend themselves against criminal prosecution for torture.


Isn't that itself conspiracy? I want to know Miers role.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Oct 7 2005, 10:34 PM)
Isn't that itself conspiracy? I want to know Miers role.
[right][snapback]134835[/snapback][/right]

She's the one with the whips.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Oct 7 2005, 08:32 PM)
I'm sure the Dems are dissappointed at not being able to drag out the whole Abramoff mess.

And I'm also sure that the Justice Dept. is going to have a whole lot of trouble filling their vacancies, as long as they insist on filling them with pro-torture appointees.
[right][snapback]134832[/snapback][/right]


Not to worry, I'm sure the Dems will win at some point and fill vacancies with pro-terrorist appointees.


Tom Servo
QUOTE(Bee @ Oct 7 2005, 08:34 PM)
So is Norway.

Mexico is not exactly a model state.
[right][snapback]134682[/snapback][/right]

And Norway is?
SRX
Cold. Like Sweden. PJ ORourke said their socialism works because all the real bum genes didn't survive in the harsh environment. (or something to that effect)
Tom Servo

laugh.gif
CharlieRay
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Oct 7 2005, 09:43 PM)
Not to worry,  I'm sure the Dems will win at some point and fill vacancies with pro-terrorist appointees.
[right][snapback]134840[/snapback][/right]


So I take it that you equate being anti-torture as being pro-terrorist... I think that's demented...

I see it differently... pro-torture is pro-terrorist if you ask me... they are common to and support each others existence.
Arturo_Vandelay
It was a simplistic retort to a simplistic contention.
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(RoccoR @ Oct 8 2005, 12:47 AM)
Repub_Bub, et al,

No, none at all.
(COMMENT)

Questions are one thing, and answers are another.

The answer to the question sets the Premise for follow-on discussions.

But I noticed that the question still goes unanswered.  This is what we call:  Begging the Question  It too is a Philosophical Fallacy.

Most Respectfully,
[right][snapback]134661[/snapback][/right]

If I thought your question were an honest one I would have been happy to answer it but you have simply proffered a thinly veiled version of “How often do you beat your wife?”

You can’t have it both ways. That is, it cannot be a true premise providing a foundation for deductions and, at the same time, not a statement of belief or fact.

Since a great deal of your postings contain this element the question that should be asked is “Why are you a Republican when you believe that the ethical foundation of the party is the abridgment of every law?.
davis¹³
QUOTE
“Why are you a Republican when you believe that the ethical foundation of the party is the abridgment of every law?


Hey, good question flat top.

Exactly as it should be asked. You Republicans have no repect for law, if the violation furthers the goals and agenda of the party. Laws are what presidential pardons are for. Ala Ollie North, Secord and Abrams among others.

Bush and company want to suspend the posse comitatus so they can use the army on civilians, justifying DOMESTIC spying any way they can, advocate star chamber justice, basically eliminate protections we have from an overzealous, politicized federal government.

States rights my ass.

Can you imagine the screams if Reno were to try this?

Rightwingers have sold us out completely.
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Oct 8 2005, 12:21 PM)
Hey, good question flat top.

Exactly as it should be asked. You Republicans have no repect for law, if the violation furthers the goals and agenda of the party. Laws are what presidential pardons are for. Ala Ollie North, Secord and Abrams among others.

Bush and company want to suspend the posse comitatus so they can use the army on civilians, justifying DOMESTIC spying any way they can, advocate star chamber justice, basically eliminate protections we have from an overzealous, politicized federal government.

States rights my ass.

Can you imagine the screams if Reno were to try this?

Rightwingers have sold us out completely.
[right][snapback]134923[/snapback][/right]

So .... why is Rocco a Republican?
davis¹³
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Oct 8 2005, 07:23 AM)
So .... why is Rocco a Republican?
[right][snapback]134924[/snapback][/right]



Rocco can explain himself. I'm sure there are more than a few Republicans who are thinking twice about the direction the party has taken.
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Oct 8 2005, 12:25 PM)
Rocco can explain himself. I'm sure there are more than a few Republicans who are thinking twice about the direction the party has taken.
[right][snapback]134926[/snapback][/right]

The lesser of evils bud....lesser of evils.
davis¹³
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Oct 8 2005, 07:27 AM)
The lesser of evils bud....lesser of evils.
[right][snapback]134927[/snapback][/right]



Evil is a daned good word for this administration. When they are done we won't have a shred of the Constitution left. And that's under Republican domination.
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Oct 8 2005, 12:28 PM)
Evil is a daned good word for this administration. When they are done we won't have a shred of the Constitution left. And that's under Republican domination.
[right][snapback]134928[/snapback][/right]

Lesser of evils....
davis¹³
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Oct 8 2005, 07:31 AM)
Lesser of evils....
[right][snapback]134930[/snapback][/right]



I doubt that very much.
davis¹³
Reporter turns over notes in CIA leak case

By Adam Entous Fri Oct 7, 7:30 PM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A New York Times reporter has given investigators notes from a conversation she had with a top aide to Vice President
Dick Cheney weeks earlier than was previously known, suggesting White House involvement started well before the outing of a
CIA operative, legal sources said.


Times reporter Judith Miller discovered the notes -- about a June 2003 conversation she had with Cheney's chief of staff, Lewis "Scooter" Libby -- after her testimony before the grand jury last week, the sources said on Friday. She turned the notes over to federal prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald and is expected to meet him again next Tuesday, the sources said.

Miller's notes could help Fitzgerald establish that Libby had started talking to reporters about CIA operative Valerie Plame and her diplomat husband, Joseph Wilson, weeks before Wilson publicly criticized the administration's
Iraq policy in a Times opinion piece, the sources said.


Wilson asserts that administration officials leaked his wife's identity, which damaged her ability to work undercover, to discredit him for criticizing
President George W. Bush's Iraq policy in 2003, after a CIA-funded trip to investigate whether Niger helped supply nuclear materials to Baghdad.

One source involved in the investigation said Miller's notes could help Fitzgerald show a long-running and orchestrated campaign to discredit Wilson, which could help form the basis for a conspiracy charge.

Fitzgerald has yet to indicate whether or not he intends to bring indictments, but lawyers close to the investigation said there were signs he may be moving in that direction.

Bush's top political adviser, Karl Rove, plans to make a fourth appearance before the grand jury next week and prosecutors have told him they can make no guarantees he won't be indicted.

The outcome could shake up an administration reeling from criticism over its response to Hurricane Katrina and the indictment of House of Representatives Republican leader
Tom DeLay of Texas on charges related to campaign financing.

The White House had long maintained Rove and Libby had nothing to do with the leak, but reporters have since named them as sources.

It can be a crime to knowingly reveal the identity of an undercover CIA operative.

NEWLY-DISCOVERED NOTES

Last Friday, after spending 85 days in jail, Miller testified before the grand jury about two conversations she had with Libby in July 2003 and turned over redacted notes.

She testified about a meeting with Libby on July 8, 2003 at the St. Regis Hotel and a later conversation by telephone on July 12, 2003, sources said.

But after she testified, Miller discovered that she had additional notes from the June 2003 conversation with Libby.

That was well before Wilson on July 6, 2003 published an opinion piece in The New York Times accusing the White House of twisting intelligence on Iraq, but after reports of his mission had begun to surface.

A column by Nicholas Kristof in the New York Times on May 6, 2003 may have been the trigger for the interest by Cheney's office, the sources said.

Kristof's column contained the first public mention of Wilson's mission in Niger, though Wilson was not identified by name. It also mentioned for the first time the alleged role of Cheney's office in seeking an investigation of the uranium deal, prompting the CIA to dispatch Wilson.

Top Cheney aides were eager to dispel Wilson's assertion that he was sent to Niger at the urging of the vice president, sources involved in the case said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051007/pl_nm/bush_leak_dc
Friend Judy
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Oct 8 2005, 06:31 AM)
Lesser of evils....
[right][snapback]134930[/snapback][/right]


"Lesser of evils" in what sense, Bub? They spend more than the Dems, they expand Federal power at the expense of the states more than the Dems, they infringe the Constitution more than the Dems (especially the BOR), their ethics are blatently worse than the Dems (who were at least corrupt for personal gain rather than party power)...

Remember, I helped bring these guys to power in the mid-90s, believing all that stuff about restoring ethics and balancing the budget and states rights, and look what they've become!

So in what sense do you still see them as the lesser of two evils?
davis¹³
QUOTE
Remember, I helped bring these guys to power in the mid-90s, believing all that stuff about restoring ethics and balancing the budget and states rights, and look what they've become!


user posted image

sucker.
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Oct 8 2005, 01:19 PM)
"Lesser of evils" in what sense, Bub?  They spend more than the Dems, they expand Federal power at the expense of the states more than the Dems, they infringe the Constitution more than the Dems (especially the BOR), their ethics are blatently worse than the Dems (who were at least corrupt for personal gain rather than party power)...

Remember, I helped bring these guys to power in the mid-90s, believing all that stuff about restoring ethics and balancing the budget and states rights, and look what they've become!

So in what sense do you still see them as the lesser of two evils?
[right][snapback]134950[/snapback][/right]

Since the Dems are not actually in power at the moment we cannot truly make good comparisons...I can only imagine that lefty leadership after a 9/11 would have led to much worse situations.
Bee
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Oct 8 2005, 09:28 AM)
Since the Dems are not actually in power at the moment we cannot truly make good comparisons...I can only imagine that lefty leadership after a 9/11 would have led to much worse situations.
[right][snapback]134960[/snapback][/right]


blink.gif

Hard to imagine things any worse then they are now.

You have quite the imagination, Bub.
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(Bee @ Oct 8 2005, 01:33 PM)
blink.gif

Hard to imagine things any worse then they are now.

You have quite the imagination, Bub.
[right][snapback]134965[/snapback][/right]

Might be an interesting topic....
What would the situation be like if only diplomatic efforts had been made all around backed by no force at all? A strong and unified Al-Qaida growing stronger every day? More taxes, etc?
davis¹³
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Oct 8 2005, 08:39 AM)
Might be an interesting topic....
What would the situation be like if only diplomatic efforts had been made all around backed by no force at all? A strong and unified Al-Qaida growing stronger every day? More taxes, etc?
[right][snapback]134972[/snapback][/right]



Old Europe didn't help bub. I'd imagine we'd probably have Bin Laden by now and we wouldn't be in Iraq. We'd have had help from around the world. Bush and his administration have alienated everyone who might have helped in our WOT.

Guess what bub? WE CANNOT WIN without help from Muslims.
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Oct 8 2005, 01:49 PM)
Old Europe didn't help bub. I'd imagine we'd probably have Bin Laden by now and we wouldn't be in Iraq. We'd have had help from around the world.  Bush and his administration have alienated everyone who might have helped in our WOT.

Guess what bub? WE CANNOT WIN without help from Muslims.
[right][snapback]134980[/snapback][/right]

What we would probably have is Bin Laden in formal control of a piece of Afghanistan, financially supported by the US in return for the security of his promise not to attack us again.
Friend Judy
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Oct 8 2005, 07:39 AM)
Might be an interesting topic....
What would the situation be like if only diplomatic efforts had been made all around backed by no force at all? A strong and unified Al-Qaida growing stronger every day? More taxes, etc?
[right][snapback]134972[/snapback][/right]


It's not an either/or choice. And if we hadn't invaded Iraq (and incompetently, at that), we'd be $250 billion less in hock right now.
davis¹³
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Oct 8 2005, 08:53 AM)
What we would probably have is Bin Laden in formal control of a piece of Afghanistan, financially supported by the US in return for the security of his promise not to attack us again.
[right][snapback]134985[/snapback][/right]


Right bub. The ones who deal with terrorists are REPUBLICANS.


I think it would have been handled better under Democrats, definitely more cooperation from the rest of the world. You know for a fact Bush and his team alienated a huge chunk of the world with their rhetoric. That bullshit may work on red staters but don't expect the rest of the world to buy into it, they knew better.

Everyone was with us after 9/11. Even France. But using 9/11 to invade Iraq was a huge mistake.
Bee
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Oct 8 2005, 09:53 AM)
What we would probably have is Bin Laden in formal control of a piece of Afghanistan, financially supported by the US in return for the security of his promise not to attack us again.
[right][snapback]134985[/snapback][/right]


Hardly. Democrats backed going into Afghanistan, as did most of the world.

The difference is Democrats wouldn't have abandoned the effort in Afghanistan and gone into Iraq, which had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11.

davis¹³
QUOTE(Bee @ Oct 8 2005, 09:33 AM)
Hardly. Democrats backed going into Afghanistan, as did most of the world.

The difference is Democrats wouldn't have abandoned the effort in Afghanistan and gone into Iraq, which had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11.
[right][snapback]135018[/snapback][/right]



indeed
Bee
QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Oct 8 2005, 10:43 AM)
indeed
[right][snapback]135019[/snapback][/right]


It's time to say "enough" to this GOP spin nonsense. If people can't even acknowledge reality, why bother debating anything?

Next thing you know they'll be asking us to believe that Saddam was behind 9/11! Oh. Yeah. They do want us to believe that. dry.gif

Unfortunately for the rest of the U.S. and the world, and the Iraqis, and the soldiers and their families, it isn't true. How can these people sleep at night?
davis¹³
QUOTE(Bee @ Oct 8 2005, 09:50 AM)
It's time to say "enough" to this GOP spin nonsense. If people can't even acknowledge reality, why bother debating anything?

Next thing you know they'll be asking us to believe that Saddam was behind 9/11! Oh. Yeah. They do want us to believe that. dry.gif

Unfortunately for the rest of the U.S. and the world, and the Iraqis, and the soldiers and their families, it isn't true. How can these people sleep at night?
[right][snapback]135024[/snapback][/right]



On a big pile of money?

(of course artie knew that was coming, add with many beautiful women)
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Oct 7 2005, 10:32 PM)
I'm sure the Dems are dissappointed at not being able to drag out the whole Abramoff mess.

And I'm also sure that the Justice Dept. is going to have a whole lot of trouble filling their vacancies, as long as they insist on filling them with pro-torture appointees.
[right][snapback]134832[/snapback][/right]


Why do you insist on using the term "Pro-torture"? It's really "right to choose torture as needed". sad.gif
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