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SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Oct 16 2005, 05:20 PM)
FBI Probes Berger for Document Removal
Former Clinton Aide Inadvertently Took Papers From Archives, His Attorney Says

By Susan Schmidt and Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, July 20, 2004; Page A02

The FBI is investigating Clinton administration national security adviser Samuel R. "Sandy" Berger's removal of classified documents from the National Archives, attorneys for Berger confirmed last night.


Berger inadvertently took copies of several versions of an after-action memo on the millennium bombing plot from the Archives last fall, said his attorney Lanny Breuer. The lawyer said one or more of the copies were then inadvertently discarded.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Jul19.html
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Inadvertently ?


HaHaHaHa!
davis¹³
That was the first story I saw that came out the next day. The CNN story has exactly what he was charged with and what he pleaded to.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Oct 16 2005, 02:19 PM)
The complaints that this is the "criminalization of politics as usual" isn't getting any traction with me.  Politics as usual HAS become criminal, and it's time to pull back to merely dirty and uncivil.
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If Dems want to prosecute for dirty and only be prosecuted for illegal they certainly will have a political advantage. Any possibility that's why people like davis spend so much time whining about morality and values? (only for the other guy of course)
davis¹³
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Oct 16 2005, 05:31 PM)
If Dems want to prosecute for dirty  and only be prosecuted for illegal they certainly will have a political advantage. Any possibility that's why people like davis spend so much time whining about morality and values? (only for the other guy of course)
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Screw that. If the hypocrite gets elected on the platform of morals and values don't you think he should have at least one if not both?

Democrats alienated me long ago. That's why Gore didn't get my vote.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Oct 16 2005, 03:34 PM)
Screw that. If the hypocrite gets elected on the platform of morals and values don't you think he should have at least one if not both?

Democrats alienated me long ago. That's why Gore didn't get my vote.
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You moved further left than Gore and I'm supposed to take that as some sort of sign of fairness?

My point is the left is who does the most whining about morals and values. Mainly in regards to trying to get a political advantage, rather than as I suspect most reps are talking about, SOCIAL ISSUES, porn, abortion, gays etc.

Reps would be stupid to unilaterally disarm with all the dirty tricks dems use.
davis¹³
QUOTE
My point is the left is who does the most whining about morals and values. Mainly in regards to trying to get a political advantage, rather than as I suspect most reps are talking about, SOCIAL ISSUES, porn, abortion, gays etc.


Puuuulease. DeLay and Gingrich were the ones to use morals and ethics to achieve their success at the polls. Now look what the party has become. As far as using it for political advantage? No one can match what the self-righteous pubes have done in the last 5 years. Beat everyone with ethics and Christian values then act like pigs at the trough.
davis¹³
QUOTE
You moved further left than Gore and I'm supposed to take that as some sort of sign of fairness?


No, just to show the level of my disgust.
davis¹³
QUOTE
Reps would be stupid to unilaterally disarm with all the dirty tricks dems use.


Yeah, tell me about it. I heard Cleland had a commie negro baby on welfare who was a lesbian terrorist sympathiser.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Oct 16 2005, 03:45 PM)
Puuuulease. DeLay and Gingrich were the ones to use morals and ethics to achieve their success at the polls.  Now look what the party has become. As far as using it for political advantage? No one can match what the self-righteous pubes have done in the last 5 years. Beat everyone with ethics and Christian values then act like pigs at the trough.
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Good thing dumbocrats act self-righteous or moralize. rolleyes.gif

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rolleyes.gif

Yeah, right, sure, whatever you say.
Arturo_Vandelay
A fourteen year old money launderer?

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3397339

AUSTIN - Travis County prosecutors admitted Friday they lack physical proof of a list of Republican candidates that is at the heart of money-laundering indictments against U.S. Rep. Tom DeLay and two of his associates.

The list is key to prosecutors being able to prove that corporate money that could not be legally spent on Texas candidates was specifically exchanged at the national level for donations that legally could be spent on Republican candidates for the Texas House.

Indictments against DeLay, Jim Ellis and John Colyandro state that Ellis gave "a document that contained the names of several candidates for the Texas House" to a Republican National Committee official in 2002 in a scheme to swap $190,000 in restricted corporate money for the same amount of money from individuals that could be legally used by Texas candidates.

But prosecutors said Friday in court that they only had a "similar" list and not the one allegedly received by then-RNC Deputy Director Terry Nelson. Late in the day, they released a list of 17 Republican candidates, but only seven are alleged to have received money in the scheme.

A lawyer for Ellis said prosecutors' inability to produce the list mentioned in the indictments is on par with the tactics used by U.S. Sen. Joseph McCarthy in the communist witch hunts of the 1950s.

"I'll tell you what I think about this list. In the 1950s, a man named McCarthy claimed to have a list of 200 communists in the State Department, and he didn't," said J.D. Pauerstein, a lawyer for Jim Ellis, the director of DeLay's Americans for a Republican Majority. "They (prosecutors) don't know what list they're talking about, even though they specify it in their indictment."

Nelson's testimony is key
Without the exact list, the prosecutors' case against DeLay, Ellis and Colyandro likely turns on Nelson's testimony. Nelson testified at least twice to grand juries hearing the case.

"That would be something Mr. Nelson could testify to, and the jury could weigh the testimony and decide whether to accept it or whether he's confused about what list he saw three or four years ago in the midst of a heated election cycle," Pauerstein said.

Lawyers for Ellis and Colyandro demanded a copy of the list from Travis County prosecutors during the court hearing Friday. But Assistant District Attorney Rick Reed told state District Judge Bob Perkins that the list prosecutors wanted to provide the defense was not the one mentioned in the indictment.

Reed said prosecutors had a list of candidates from the business papers of the DeLay-founded Texans for a Republican Majority, TRMPAC, that they believe was a precursor to the one given to Nelson.

"Despite the fact that the state cannot conclusively prove that the said document is a duplicate (or copy thereof)" of the document given to Nelson, the "state believes that the document is at least factually related" to the document mentioned in the indictment, Reed said in a court brief filed after the hearing.

The list released by prosecutors contained the names of 17 Republican state House candidates from 2002. Nine of the candidates had dollar amounts listed next to their names totaling $230,000.

Those nine include the seven candidates who received the contested $190,000 in donations from the Republican National State Elections Committee, with the dollar amounts next to their names matching the donations they received.

A lawyer for Colyandro said he was stunned to learn the state does not have a copy of the list given to Nelson. Colyandro was the executive director of TRMPAC.

"It's just hard to believe this (list) is central to their indictment," said Colyandro attorney Joe Turner. "They've had this grand jury investigation for over three years now, and they don't have a list, and now they've come up with a document that they say is similar to the list."

'Astonishing, astonishing'
DeLay's lawyer, Dick DeGuerin of Houston, was not present in court Friday. But he later said the lack of a list "destroys" District Attorney Ronnie Earle's case against the three men.

"That's astonishing, astonishing that they would get a grand jury to indict and allege there is a list and then they have to admit in open court the first time they appear in open court that there is no list," DeGuerin said.

In a civil lawsuit related to the case, RNC election law counsel Charles Spies testified in March that he knew of no list of Texas candidates being given to the RNC as part of an alleged money exchange in 2002.

Nelson has referred questions to the RNC, whose spokesman Brian Jones has declined to comment.

The indictments allege Colyandro had a TRMPAC check for $190,000 drawn from corporate funds and sent to Ellis, who in turn gave the check to Nelson on Sept. 13, 2002. The indictment says Ellis gave Nelson a document with candidate names on it and outlined how they should receive donations "in exchange" for the TRMPAC corporate money.

Texas law prohibits corporate donations to candidates.

Pauerstein said it was legal for TRMPAC to accept corporate money so long as it did not donate it to a candidate.

He said there is no state law to prohibit TRMPAC from donating corporate money to the RNC.

"If they (corporations) want to give them (TRMPAC) $100,000 to set on fire in a parking lot, that's not illegal. There's no intent for that to be a campaign contribution," Pauerstein said.

Subpoenas raise criticism
Pauerstein also blasted prosecutors for a new set of subpoenas that he said includes a request for the 2002 phone records of Ellis' daughter.

"On top of that, they are now subpoenaing cell phone records of Jim Ellis' 17-year-old daughter. This is a prosecution that has run amok. It's time for this to stop," Pauerstein said. "I guess they think Jim's 17-year-old daughter is a money launderer. I think it's outrageous that they're doing that to the young lady."

Earle responded to Pauerstein's comments by saying, "The investigation is continuing."
davis¹³
QUOTE
The list released by prosecutors contained the names of 17 Republican state House candidates from 2002. Nine of the candidates had dollar amounts listed next to their names totaling $230,000.

Those nine include the seven candidates who received the contested $190,000 in donations from the Republican National State Elections Committee, with the dollar amounts next to their names matching the donations they received.


we'll see.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Oct 16 2005, 08:05 PM)
A fourteen year old money launderer?

"On top of that, they are now subpoenaing cell phone records of Jim Ellis' 17-year-old daughter. This is a prosecution that has run amok. It's time for this to stop," Pauerstein said. "I guess they think Jim's 17-year-old daughter is a money launderer. I think it's outrageous that they're doing that to the young lady."
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Last time I heard, anyone with access to a phone could pick it up and use it.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Oct 16 2005, 06:36 PM)
Last time I heard, anyone with access to a phone could pick it up and use it.
[right][snapback]138882[/snapback][/right]


I knew there was a reason Dems were going around with recorders in their cars snooping on Reps. laugh.gif
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Oct 16 2005, 08:05 PM)
A fourteen year old money launderer?

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3397339

AUSTIN - Travis County prosecutors admitted Friday they lack physical proof of a list of Republican candidates that is at the heart of money-laundering indictments against U.S. Rep. Tom DeLay and two of his associates.

The list is key to prosecutors being able to prove that corporate money that could not be legally spent on Texas candidates was specifically exchanged at the national level for donations that legally could be spent on Republican candidates for the Texas House.

Indictments against DeLay, Jim Ellis and John Colyandro state that Ellis gave "a document that contained the names of several candidates for the Texas House" to a Republican National Committee official in 2002 in a scheme to swap $190,000 in restricted corporate money for the same amount of money from individuals that could be legally used by Texas candidates.

But prosecutors said Friday in court that they only had a "similar" list and not the one allegedly received by then-RNC Deputy Director Terry Nelson. Late in the day, they released a list of 17 Republican candidates, but only seven are alleged to have received money in the scheme.

A lawyer for Ellis said prosecutors' inability to produce the list mentioned in the indictments is on par with the tactics used by U.S. Sen. Joseph McCarthy in the communist witch hunts of the 1950s.

"I'll tell you what I think about this list. In the 1950s, a man named McCarthy claimed to have a list of 200 communists in the State Department, and he didn't," said J.D. Pauerstein, a lawyer for Jim Ellis, the director of DeLay's Americans for a Republican Majority. "They (prosecutors) don't know what list they're talking about, even though they specify it in their indictment."

Nelson's testimony is key
Without the exact list, the prosecutors' case against DeLay, Ellis and Colyandro likely turns on Nelson's testimony. Nelson testified at least twice to grand juries hearing the case.

"That would be something Mr. Nelson could testify to, and the jury could weigh the testimony and decide whether to accept it or whether he's confused about what list he saw three or four years ago in the midst of a heated election cycle," Pauerstein said.

Lawyers for Ellis and Colyandro demanded a copy of the list from Travis County prosecutors during the court hearing Friday. But Assistant District Attorney Rick Reed told state District Judge Bob Perkins that the list prosecutors wanted to provide the defense was not the one mentioned in the indictment.

Reed said prosecutors had a list of candidates from the business papers of the DeLay-founded Texans for a Republican Majority, TRMPAC, that they believe was a precursor to the one given to Nelson.

"Despite the fact that the state cannot conclusively prove that the said document is a duplicate (or copy thereof)" of the document given to Nelson, the "state believes that the document is at least factually related" to the document mentioned in the indictment, Reed said in a court brief filed after the hearing.

The list released by prosecutors contained the names of 17 Republican state House candidates from 2002. Nine of the candidates had dollar amounts listed next to their names totaling $230,000.

Those nine include the seven candidates who received the contested $190,000 in donations from the Republican National State Elections Committee, with the dollar amounts next to their names matching the donations they received.

A lawyer for Colyandro said he was stunned to learn the state does not have a copy of the list given to Nelson. Colyandro was the executive director of TRMPAC.

"It's just hard to believe this (list) is central to their indictment," said Colyandro attorney Joe Turner. "They've had this grand jury investigation for over three years now, and they don't have a list, and now they've come up with a document that they say is similar to the list."

'Astonishing, astonishing'
DeLay's lawyer, Dick DeGuerin of Houston, was not present in court Friday. But he later said the lack of a list "destroys" District Attorney Ronnie Earle's case against the three men.

"That's astonishing, astonishing that they would get a grand jury to indict and allege there is a list and then they have to admit in open court the first time they appear in open court that there is no list," DeGuerin said.

In a civil lawsuit related to the case, RNC election law counsel Charles Spies testified in March that he knew of no list of Texas candidates being given to the RNC as part of an alleged money exchange in 2002.

Nelson has referred questions to the RNC, whose spokesman Brian Jones has declined to comment.

The indictments allege Colyandro had a TRMPAC check for $190,000 drawn from corporate funds and sent to Ellis, who in turn gave the check to Nelson on Sept. 13, 2002. The indictment says Ellis gave Nelson a document with candidate names on it and outlined how they should receive donations "in exchange" for the TRMPAC corporate money.

Texas law prohibits corporate donations to candidates.

Pauerstein said it was legal for TRMPAC to accept corporate money so long as it did not donate it to a candidate.

He said there is no state law to prohibit TRMPAC from donating corporate money to the RNC.

"If they (corporations) want to give them (TRMPAC) $100,000 to set on fire in a parking lot, that's not illegal. There's no intent for that to be a campaign contribution," Pauerstein said.

Subpoenas raise criticism
Pauerstein also blasted prosecutors for a new set of subpoenas that he said includes a request for the 2002 phone records of Ellis' daughter.

"On top of that, they are now subpoenaing cell phone records of Jim Ellis' 17-year-old daughter. This is a prosecution that has run amok. It's time for this to stop," Pauerstein said. "I guess they think Jim's 17-year-old daughter is a money launderer. I think it's outrageous that they're doing that to the young lady."

Earle responded to Pauerstein's comments by saying, "The investigation is continuing."
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BTW, this is classic Dick DeGuerin.

He's one of the best criminal defense attorneys in the country.
davis¹³
user posted image
cspanjunky
QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Oct 17 2005, 06:23 AM)
user posted image
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laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Bushie's pea (pee) brain
cspanjunky
" Give us (U.S.) your tired... your poor... your sick... your sick and tired masses...
roserose
QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Oct 16 2005, 08:22 PM)
we'll see.
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Is there a copy of Nixon's hit list in the library?
I'd like to see if Ronnie Earle is on it.
SherryB
According to Bloomberg news, Cheney may be in trouble. Criminal conspiracy against Joe Wilson and his wife.

The part that interested me was the last paragraph.



"Miller, who wrote many influential pre-war war stories about Hussein's purported weapons of mass destruction that the Times later acknowledged were flawed, told the grand jury she recommended in 2003 that the newspaper pursue the Plame story. Jill Abramson, the newspaper's managing editor, said Miller never made any such recommendation.

In an interview yesterday, Wilson said that once the criminal questions are settled, he and his wife may file a civil lawsuit against Bush, Cheney and others seeking damages for the alleged harm done to Plame's career.

If they do so, the current state of the law makes it likely that the suit will be allowed to proceed -- and Bush and Cheney will face questioning under oath -- while they are in office. The reason for that is a unanimous 1997 U.S. Supreme Court decision ruling that Paula Jones' sexual harassment suit against then-President Bill Clinton could go forward immediately, a decision that was hailed by conservatives at the time. "


To contact the reporter on this story:
Richard Keil in Washington at dkeil@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: October 17, 2005 00:21 EDT


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=100...=top_world_news


inyerface
"honor and dignity"

laugh.gif
SherryB
With all the money Cheney's been pulling in the last few years, I hope the settlement is very large. smile.gif
davis¹³
Do you really think they're be consequences to the outing of Valerie Plame?

Personally, these maggots have been at this kind of shit for 30 years. Iran/Contra taught them all they need to know about plausible deniability and media control.

I think maybe Libby might be slapped on the wrist. Cheney? Untouchable.

Then Libby will be pardoned and welcomed back in by Republicans as a loyal soldier.

Bart Katz
QUOTE(SherryB @ Oct 17 2005, 09:18 AM)
With all the money Cheney's been pulling in the last few years, I hope the settlement is very large.  smile.gif
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There's not even a suit yet. Don't count your chickens yet.
SherryB
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Oct 17 2005, 10:22 AM)
There's not even a suit yet.  Don't count your chickens yet.
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The burden of proof in a civil lawsuit is way lower than in a criminal case, ala O J.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(SherryB @ Oct 17 2005, 09:33 AM)
The burden of proof in a civil lawsuit is way lower than in a criminal case, ala O J.
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Proof of what? There's nothing there.
SherryB
Not yet. smile.gif
Bart Katz
QUOTE(SherryB @ Oct 17 2005, 09:48 AM)
Not yet.  smile.gif
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So what's the grounds for this lawsuit?
SherryB
See post above. Spells it out for you. smile.gif
Bart Katz
QUOTE(SherryB @ Oct 17 2005, 09:56 AM)
See post above.  Spells it out for you.  smile.gif
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There is no suit. It's merely something on your wish list.
SherryB
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Oct 17 2005, 11:01 AM)
There is no suit.  It's merely something on your wish list.
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Fingers crossed. laugh.gif
SherryB
QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Oct 17 2005, 10:22 AM)
Do you really think they're be consequences to the outing of Valerie Plame?

Personally, these maggots have been at this kind of shit for 30 years. Iran/Contra taught them all they need to know about plausible deniability and media control.

I think maybe Libby might be slapped on the wrist. Cheney? Untouchable.

Then Libby will be pardoned and welcomed back in by Republicans as a loyal soldier.
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I wonder if Bush can pardon them while he's still in office or has to wait like Clinton did as the last thing he did. ???
davis¹³
QUOTE(SherryB @ Oct 17 2005, 10:11 AM)
I wonder if Bush can pardon them while he's still in office or has to wait like Clinton did as the last thing he did.  ???
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He's a radical. He hasn't let anything stand in his way so far.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Oct 17 2005, 03:49 PM)
He's a radical. He hasn't let anything stand in his way so far.
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He's a War President. He can't be letting people eff with his cabinet at a time like this.

Pardon them right away, and hold a fundraiser.
RoccoR
et al,

While I am not a big fan of the Administration and the ethics of the politics demonstrated in this case, I am not entirely sure that criminal proceedings are the right course of action to pursue.

QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Oct 17 2005, 04:52 PM)
He's a War President. He can't be letting people eff with his cabinet at a time like this.

Pardon them right away, and hold a fundraiser.
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(COMMENT)

Let's evaluate this. Clearly, it is probably to everyone’s best interest to know the facts and the truth of this matter.
    If it is the case that the information came from a non-Administration source, then the White House deserves to have its reputation cleared on this count.

    If it is the case that the information came from inside the Administration, then the public should know the character of the ethics exercised by that Administration.

    But in either case, what useful purpose does an imposed criminal sanction serve our nation. The deed is done.
The key is to learn from this event and to promote a “best practice.” As in the events leading to the Tom DeLay scandal, it is more important to understand that the political process is either totally divorced of ethics as a contemplated prerequisite (supporting the gerrymandering to gain a politically superior position through ethically deceptive funding is an acceptable practice in politics), - or – that the political process does have ethics and is able to self correct. Much the same is true of the ad hominem attack resulting in the leak. It is OK to attack the character of someone even if it violates secrecy laws.

(OUTCOMES)

If the political process has no shame, then it will find a way to shield Tom DeLay and the Administration, through some technical loopholes in the law. This would probably have the net effect of projecting the image that the “spirit and intent” of the law are unimportant. This would be a negative consequence.

We must move toward projecting the image that the “spirit and intent” are extremely important concepts, even if strict compliance is outside the normal operating parameters in the cesspool of politics.

Most Respectfully,

SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(RoccoR @ Oct 17 2005, 05:25 PM)
et al,

While I am not a big fan of the Administration and the ethics of the politics demonstrated in this case, I am not entirely sure that criminal proceedings are the right course of action to pursue.
(COMMENT)

Let's evaluate this.  Clearly, it is probably to everyone’s best interest to know the facts and the truth of this matter.
    If it is the case that the information came from a non-Administration source, then the White House deserves to have its reputation cleared on this count.

    If it is the case that the information came from inside the Administration, then the public should know the character of the ethics exercised by that Administration.

    But in either case, what useful purpose does an imposed criminal sanction serve our nation.  The deed is done.
The key is to learn from this event and to promote a “best practice.”  As in the events leading to the Tom DeLay scandal, it is more important to understand that the political process is either totally divorced of ethics as a contemplated prerequisite (supporting the gerrymandering to gain a politically superior position through ethically deceptive funding is an acceptable practice in politics), - or – that the political process does have ethics and is able to self correct.  Much the same is true of the ad hominem attack resulting in the leak.  It is OK to attack the character of someone even if it violates secrecy laws. 

(OUTCOMES)

If the political process has no shame, then it will find a way to shield Tom DeLay and the Administration, through some technical loopholes in the law.  This would probably have the net effect of projecting the image that the “spirit and intent” of the law are unimportant.  This would be a negative consequence.

We must move toward projecting the image that the “spirit and intent” are extremely important concepts, even if strict compliance is outside the normal operating parameters in the cesspool of politics.

Most Respectfully,
[right][snapback]139194[/snapback][/right]

Points well taken.
davis¹³
naaaaaaaaa .... break out the thumb screws
SherryB
Hang 'em high.
Mizilus
QUOTE(RoccoR @ Oct 17 2005, 02:25 PM)
et al,

But in either case, what useful purpose does an imposed criminal sanction serve our nation.  The deed is done.
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You have got to be kidding. That type of attitude got us where we are now with the Iran/Contra affair and resulted in a repuslickan party that has no respect for the Constitution, Law, Democracy, Freedom, Morals or Values. In other words everything it used to mean to be an American.
davis¹³
QUOTE(Mizilus @ Oct 17 2005, 05:44 PM)
You have got to be kidding. That type of attitude got us where we are now with the Iran/Contra affair and resulted in a repuslickan party that has no respect for the Constitution, Law, Democracy, Freedom, Morals or Values. In other words everything it used to mean to be an American.
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user posted image
RoccoR
Mizilus, et al,

No, I'm not kidding.

QUOTE(Mizilus @ Oct 17 2005, 06:44 PM)
You have got to be kidding. That type of attitude got us where we are now with the Iran/Contra affair and resulted in a repuslickan party that has no respect for the Constitution, Law, Democracy, Freedom, Morals or Values. In other words everything it used to mean to be an American.
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(OBSERVATION)

The Iran/Contra Debacle happened during the Presidency that is most hailed by historians and the common people. Seldom do you find anyone to openly criticize the Reagan Administration. You will not find many that say that the Reagan Administration did not have a "respect for the Constitution, Law, Democracy, Freedom, Morals or Values."

(COMMENT)

While politics is multi-faceted but closed system, it most resembles and has the characteristics of a septic tank. That closed system is a small-scale sewage treatment system, consisting of a tank (Congress) and a "leach" (Washington). Raw sewage (politicians), enter this small universe, where the solids (polite word) can settle and scum floats.

Every now and then, the stench builds up and the leach field becomes saturated to such a disgusting point, that the tank needs pumped-out and the leach field treated to reduce the stink. Like any septic tank, it needs cleaned-out periodically or the smell becomes overwhelming. That is the nature of politics and raw sewage. While Capitol Hill is a nice place from afar, you have to be careful of getting too close. Like any leach field, you might step in something and ruin your shoes.

Most Respectfully,
Bee
QUOTE(RoccoR @ Oct 17 2005, 07:25 PM)
Mizilus,  et al,

No, I'm not kidding.
(OBSERVATION)

The Iran/Contra Debacle happened during the Presidency that is most hailed by historians and the common people.  Seldom do you find anyone to openly criticize the Reagan Administration.  You will not find many that say that the Reagan Administration did not have a "respect for the Constitution, Law, Democracy, Freedom, Morals or Values."

(COMMENT)

While politics is multi-faceted but closed system, it most resembles and has the characteristics of a septic tank.  That closed system is a small-scale sewage treatment system, consisting of a tank (Congress) and a "leach" (Washington).  Raw sewage (politicians), enter this small universe, where the solids (polite word) can settle and scum floats.

Every now and then, the stench builds up and the leach field becomes saturated to such a disgusting point, that the tank needs pumped-out and the leach field treated to reduce the stink.  Like any septic tank, it needs cleaned-out periodically or the smell becomes overwhelming.  That is the nature of politics and raw sewage.  While Capitol Hill is a nice place from afar, you have to be careful of getting too close.  Like any leach field, you might step in something and ruin your shoes.

Most Respectfully,
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Oh my!

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

You should be teaching poly-sci, Mr. Rosano!
Mizilus
QUOTE(RoccoR @ Oct 17 2005, 03:25 PM)
Mizilus,  et al,

No, I'm not kidding.
(OBSERVATION)

The Iran/Contra Debacle happened during the Presidency that is most hailed by historians and the common people.  Seldom do you find anyone to openly criticize the Reagan Administration.  You will not find many that say that the Reagan Administration did not have a "respect for the Constitution, Law, Democracy, Freedom, Morals or Values."
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Oh really? Outside of republican circles I dont personally know anyone that would agree with you, myself and my family included.

For republicans it seems to all boil down to, "Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall." Other than that I wonder why that man and his administration would be so hailed. Edify me if you will.


QUOTE(RoccoR @ Oct 17 2005, 03:25 PM)
(COMMENT)

While politics is multi-faceted but closed system, it most resembles and has the characteristics of a septic tank.  That closed system is a small-scale sewage treatment system, consisting of a tank (Congress) and a "leach" (Washington).  Raw sewage (politicians), enter this small universe, where the solids (polite word) can settle and scum floats.

Every now and then, the stench builds up and the leach field becomes saturated to such a disgusting point, that the tank needs pumped-out and the leach field treated to reduce the stink.  Like any septic tank, it needs cleaned-out periodically or the smell becomes overwhelming.  That is the nature of politics and raw sewage.  While Capitol Hill is a nice place from afar, you have to be careful of getting too close.  Like any leach field, you might step in something and ruin your shoes.

Most Respectfully,
[right][snapback]139226[/snapback][/right]



Well thank God Elliot Ness didnt feel that way.

Damn right the septic tank needs to be cleaned out. In fact it needs to be replaced. Or at the very least certain turds should be forbidden from ever entering the system.

I'm just not one of the "thats just the way it is" fatalists.
RoccoR
Mizilus, et al,

OK, so I'm a Republican.

QUOTE(Mizilus @ Oct 17 2005, 07:45 PM)
Oh really? Outside of republican circles I dont personally know anyone that would agree with you, myself and my family included.

For republicans it seems to all boil down to, "Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall." Other than that I wonder why that man and his administration would be so hailed. Edify me if you will.
Well thank God Elliot Ness didnt feel that way.


(OBSERVATION)

C-SPAN Survey of Presidential Leadership

Ronald Reagan
Historian Survey Results Overall Ranking: 11

http://www.americanpresidents.org/survey/historians/39.asp

Of course, opinions differ. As for one of the most celebrated G-Men of all time (Eliot Ness), I'm not sure what he would say. But needless to say, it was only 3 years after Capone was sentenced and one year after he left Chicago that the Congress repealed prohibition.

user posted image

QUOTE(Mizilus @ Oct 17 2005, 07:45 PM)
Damn right the septic tank needs to be cleaned out. In fact it needs to be replaced. Or at the very least certain turds should be forbidden from ever entering the system.


(COMMENT)

But I believe that the voters should the active ingredient in breaking-down the sewage and purifying the wasteland of Washington; not the legal system. Our founders believed that was our responsibility.

QUOTE(Mizilus @ Oct 17 2005, 07:45 PM)
I'm just not one of the "thats just the way it is" fatalists.
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(COMMENT)

Fatalism has nothing to do with it. The world is not perfect and we don't have a Congress composed of mortal saints in the House with angels in the Senate.

    QUOTE("http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_1/phaedo.html")
    Socrates opposed the Sophists, arguing that there are absolute, transcultural standards of right and wrong, good and bad. He argued (as in the first passage below) that once we recognize what is truly good, we will act in accord with that knowledge--hence his claim that "the virtues are a kind of knowledge." He also firmly believed (as shown in the second passage) that the cosmos is grounded in goodness, hence that a good person cannot suffer unduly and that death is not something to be feared.  Plato recounts the last hours of Socrates' life in a moving dialogue. This is the end of his final speech, just after he had been condemned to death by the citizens of Athens, his home town. The method of execution was that the condemned should drink a cup of hemlock, a not uncommon mode of execution. 


I commend your belief in the possibility, for it is a noble cause and a positive perspective, but I (personal opinion) believe it is NOT attainable. It is a suburb of Utopia.

Politics is corrupt by its very nature; it's merely measured in degrees and magnitude. There are no honest (and still successful) politicians; just as there is no city more attractive to scum than Washington DC. It is merely a matter of the amount of waste you want to swim through. Just as you cannot fight the physical laws of the universe, so it is just as futile to fight the laws of politics.

Most Respectfully,
Mizilus
Its going to be hard to remedy with the same ol same ol. Between no choices, fixed elections, and each side in essence protecting the other because they both have their hands in the same cookie jar, well, the chances of "the people" fixing it without taking up arms is next to squat.

If you ask me the place for the people to begin is within their own party. Instead of pointing fingers at the other side I would recommend that they see to it that their parties candidates are sqeeky clean and have a plan that is good for the whole nation, not just the "left or the right" side of things, and are therefore the best person for the job. In other words work for the nation and its people rather than the party once they get to cesstown.
Mizilus
also, I've said before that I am sick and goddamn tired of the lying. The "news' is full of it these days. You got some democrat and some repuslickan up there and basically no matter what the topic is one of them says one thing and the other says the exact opposite. Sure, not everything is black and white cut and dried, but nine time out of ten one of these effers is lying their ass off. Substituting opinion for truth or facts if you will. I am sick of that sh_t and it has to stop.
Bee
QUOTE(Mizilus @ Oct 17 2005, 08:52 PM)
Its going to be hard to remedy with the same ol same ol. Between no choices, fixed elections, and each side in essence protecting the other because they both have their hands in the same cookie jar, well, the chances of "the people" fixing it without taking up arms is next to squat.

If you ask me the place for the people to begin is within their own party. Instead of pointing fingers at the other side I would recommend that they see to it that their parties candidates are sqeeky clean and have a plan that is good for the whole nation, not just the "left or the right" side of things, and are therefore the best person for the job. In other words work for the nation and its people rather than the party once they get to cesstown.
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IOW. Miz wants the Anti-Donut Party. Mr. Rosano playing the part of the good Bishop Potter.



QUOTE
Mark Twain said that he held the whole matter of reform in his hands; that he knew all about it, and that he was going to tell his hearers just how to bring it about. He told about an organization of which he was a member fifty-one years ago - when he was fourteen years old - which had been dubbed the "Anti-Doughnut Party." In the course of his address he dwelt on he fact that just such a party was needed now, and it was the opinion of those who heard him last night that the "Anti-Doughnut Party" would be one of the slogans in the next municipal campaign.

[snip]

Bishop Potter began his address by making a plea for tolerance. He said that conditions as they existed were largely a result of the complexities of human nature. He was not prepared to maintain, he said that the police as a body were corrupt, and said he believed that there were among them as many men who had aspirations toward good and aims that were commendable as among any other body of men of the same size.

"But they are the creatures of a system," said the Bishop. "I did not come here to say pleasant things, and the system exists largely because of your indifference and mine. The solution of the problem lies in individual activity and vigilance. I am sorry for one thing my friends, and that is that, in spite of the approval with which my remarks made in St. Paul's Chapel seemed to have met with at the time, they really fell absolutely dead. What have any of you done along the line of personal vigilance in spite of your evident desire to bring bout changed conditions? You will never get results until you get up the proper spirit of personal sacrifice and vigilance.

[snip]

"I told him that it was a system we were opposing, not a man or men, for he knew as well as you and I that the policeman does not hold his place through devotion to duty or honesty, but wholly and solely by the favor of those above him, who are responsible for the system.

"Some time ago I stated, and there were many criticisms on my statements - that money was the root of all the evil. A condition of society where gain excuses all doings must naturally affect the mechanism which runs a city such as this. There might be some higher aim.

"There must be some loftier motives. We must recognize in all who are worthy a striving for the right. The feeling must be fostered and nurtured. There must be personal sacrifice and vigilance, and when you can achieve that there comes the awakening of a great enthusiasm. The rest will be an easy matter.

MARK TWAIN'S REMEDY.

Mark Twain, who was the next speaker, and who, Mr. Peckham said, would view the matter from a different standpoint, took issue with Bishop Potter at once. He said that there was lust for gain and dishonesty, but that it must be admitted that if such a condition was universal this country could not survive. He said that he believed that forty-nine out of every fifty men were honest, and asked if this were true why it was that the forty-nine honest ones could not have their way. The whole matter simplified, he said, was that the wrong man was in authority.

"Now I am here, " said Mr. Clemens, "with the utmost seriousness of manner to tell you what's to be done, and how to do it. I have exercised the trade of unsalaried statesmanship for years. I am a statesman not for reward, but for the peace of mind it brings me. I am too old to learn, but I am not too old to teach.

"Now, to set this whole thing right is very simple. I know all about it. It has been said by somebody, and if it hasn't it will be now, that we must learn wisdom out of the mouths of babes and sucklings or something of that sort. The whole solution of the question rests just there. Fifty-one years ago, when I was fourteen years old, I was a member of a party of a peculiar sort, and it was my belief that if we could have such a party now we would soon clear the political atmosphere.
I bring it to you here now for the salvation of this town. The party was called the Cadets of Temperance.

"Its members wore red merino scarfs and walked in church parades and picnics. On entering it a boy had to promise not to smoke," said Mr. Clemens, removing the cigar from his mouth, "never to drink or gamble, to keep the Sabbath, and not to steal watermelons. In fact, you promised to leave behind all the liberties that were of any value, and pursue a career of virtue that was irksome to yourself and a reproach to all other people.

"There were thirty-four members of the party, and they were divided into two factions, the reds and the blues. Five of the members were purchasable, and they had to be purchased every month, when there was an election. Four could be secured on reasonable terms, but the fifth held out for war prices. The bribes were paid in the shape of doughnuts and chewing gum. There were two boys - the most incapable of the lot, but the most enterprising, who were always to the fore. There was Croker Brown on one side and Platt Higgins on the other, and one or the other managed to get himself elected every time. The good boys stood no show at all. They couldn't get elected.

THE ANTI-DOUGHNUT PARTY

"When we had stood this thing a long time, we got an idea. We good boys stepped out when we saw the balance of power with the purchasables, and formed another party. We called ourselves the incorruptibles, but we were not always known by that name. We had obloquy heaped on us, and we got the name of the 'Anti-Doughnut Party' because we couldn't be approached on the usual terms. Well, we started wrong by putting up one of our members for office, and of course he got licked.

But we stuck together, we twelve, and enunciated new principles. They were that none of us would ever accept office of any kind. We are here, we said, to put some virtue into the gang, and we're going to do it. We won't take office, but we warn you - meaning the other two parties - that you've got to put up your best men for office or you won't get our support. We were strong enough to make those terms, and that was the end of the Crokers and the Platts. The good boys were put up, and then we picked the best one and voted for him and he was elected.


http://www.twainquotes.com/19010105.html
RoccoR
Mizilus,, et al,

Yes, my friend, patriotism is all about unselfish service to the nation, not the party.

QUOTE(Mizilus @ Oct 17 2005, 08:52 PM)
In other words work for the nation and its people rather than the party once they get to cesstown.
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(COMMENT)

Agreed!

QUOTE(Mizilus @ Oct 17 2005, 08:57 PM)
Substituting opinion for truth or facts if you will. I am sick of that sh_t and it has to stop.
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(COMMENT)

Again we are in agreement! But it seem damn near impossible to find in DC. Oh, I can accept the honest difference of opinion and the frankness in personal perspective, but I am not so sure that many politicians are merely anything more than puppets of a machine that gets them re-elected.

Most Resepctfully,
RoccoR
Bee, et al,

I have to chuckle here.

QUOTE(Bee @ Oct 17 2005, 09:00 PM)
IOW. Miz wants the Anti-Donut Party. Mr. Rosano playing the part of the good Bishop Potter.
[right][snapback]139250[/snapback][/right]

(OBSERVATION)

There seems to be an Uncanny resemblance here.

Ms Bee is just too observant.

Most Respectfully,


Mizilus
well ok then.
roserose
Thanks to Bee for the unquotable-quote:
babes, sucklings, something like that. Lost the clip, I'll go get it..blah,blah blah
I am sick of that sh_t and it has to stop.
Nope, that's Miz.
Ahh, there it is.. S Clements.."we must learn wisdom out of the mouths of babes and sucklings or something of that sort." biggrin.gif
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