It could be manipulation, couldn't it? I agree the morality has to be in place, but one turns it into panic by creating or overstating a "threat."

Some words or phrases are intrinsically distracting to me. I get so caught by the language I cannot think through to the ideas. And screwed the poochwould be one. 

<Breath> Ok. For example, "gay marriage." I don't think it had to be portrayed as the threat that it was portrayed as, but to tell you truth, I have to agree that the politicians this time did not have to exploit that much, the advocates did more than the adversaries did to create that clash.
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And that is why they piss me off so much. I hate religious manipulation by crooked politicians.
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Fucking up, not necessarily fucking off. But it can be both. 
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You are missing my and Barts' point that the underlying sentiment among the populace is there. That's why he and I can say that it's not manufactured. At the worst, manipulated.
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First, it should already be clear that I don't buy the "panic" nomenclature.  It's simply a backlash by a majority.  You all are working as hard as you can to try and lay this off on the people, when the fault, if any, lies with the whakoes that are trying to pull this shit off.  If they had the sense that God gave a goose they'd know they are screwing up.
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You are missing my and Barts' point that the underlying sentiment among the populace is there. That's why he and I can say that it's not manufactured. At the worst, manipulated.
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Like Millness said, they re-elected a one-term President.
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At the worst, manipulated.

It's based on a legitimate gripe against attempts at rationalizing areas of life that have been thought of as best left to "tradition" and "community standards", areas of life where no appeal to superior rational argument or consistency with universalistic criteria or technical efficiency is necessary to justify norms and behaviors.

Yet, those legitimate gripes are mobilized and directed with the exact same techniques as are used in marketing (corporate and political). In the process of defending the "lifeworld" from encroachments of the "system world", the former is further rationalized and politicized. That causes a further erosion of the "taken-for-granted" nature of those traditions, those values, norms and mores. Those whom you call "antis" will follow suit: theirs is also a tradition of sorts which is also now "under attack". "Meaning" and "values" are increasingly going to be subject to being "produced" as if they were "demand" for a product or "support" for a party. The makings of a full-blown legitimation and motivation crisis.

We can see the "colonization" of the life-world already in the whole movement for "faith-based initiatives" and using government funds (i.e. money and power) to support activities and values which are supposed to be "self-rewarding".
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So if Berman lacks some background, he does manage to get to the heart of a matter that deflected more scholarly minds. And he stands as the first to make this leap. Even today people don't appear to see the connection between Jurgen Habermas' "Lifeworld vs. System World" typology, inherited from Husserl and Heidegger, and the philosophy of Qutb, which simply maps the same concepts into the religious framework of Islam. The insight that man had become alienated from his own nature, whether through the "false consciousness" of Marx or by our "deluded faith in the power of reason," makes virtually the same diagnosis as Qutb. So it's not really that surprising for Arendt to identify loneliness (alienation) as the culprit. Of course, it had to be. There is not such a great distance, philosophically, between Qutb's "hideous schizophrenia" of modern life, and the nostalgic longing for the "Lebenswelt" that drives much of modern European philosophy.

BINGO!!!!!
Masterful manipulation. THE WORST. I despise them for that.
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Your marriage, job, extended family, kids, and community would all be traditionally perfect if it weren't for evil liberals and queers.

Moral panic is already resident.  What is manufactured are scapegoats. 

Your marriage, job, extended family, kids, and community would all be traditionally perfect if it weren't for evil liberals and queers. 

Sure.
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If you fool around with people and their traditions long enough, and your timing sucks, then you're going to get that resistance.  You're just trying to argue which came first here.  I don't think Bushie or anyone else created any panic.  Politicians can, of course, use it to advantage, they they didn't create a panic.  Doesn't your brand of sociology teach that sort of thing, human nature so to speak?  When a few try to push around the many, those few are going to get clobbered.  You're seeing it now and you'll see it again in 06.
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At least we can do something about the queers. The rest of that sh#t is hard to fix. 
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First, it should already be clear that I don't buy the "panic" nomenclature. It's simply a backlash by a majority.  You all are working as hard as you can to try and lay this off on the people and the politicians , when the fault, if any, lies with the whakoes that are trying to pull this shit off.  If they had the sense that God gave a goose they'd know they are screwing up.
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BINGO!!!!!
Masterful manipulation. THE WORST. I despise them for that.
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So you would almost (or wholly?) say that my concern about religious wars ratcheting up is manufactured? 
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So you would almost (or wholly?) say that my concern about religious wars ratcheting up is manufactured? 
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That's cool, I always thought the social security crowd had been manipulated. They used to be a big factor, third rail of politics shit. The Dems overplayed their hand and lost any advantage there.
Davis, my generation just isn't going in for the democrat bs. I'm 34 and smack dab in the middle of it. And the dems are still trying to play blame the voters. I know you guys think it's the best chance you have of beating Republicans, but it isn't enough. I CANT BE THE ONLY PERSON OUT THERE THAT WOULD NEVER VOTE DEMOCRAT. It's one thing to say I'm just some good ol' boy bible belt racist trailer park gun totin militia member from the south. But I'm not. I was born in Los Gatos California, and spent my formative years in Saratoga. Hardly backwoods bro.
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I CANT BE THE ONLY PERSON OUT THERE THAT WOULD NEVER VOTE DEMOCRAT.

By whom?
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I'm gittin' you the Dave Barry -- you guys can compare stereotypes.
Good question. Too good to answer. I could say the media, and as you know I have been od-ing lately on the 24/7 Noise Channels, even or because I think they are toxic, and I do not know where that circle is broken into.
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I would just refrain from thinking it's anything like a panic.  A panic would have everyone running for the exits.  People just gotta remember Newton's laws.
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I would say your concern is more manufactured than the desire for folks to reclaim their culture.
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Did you shop at Crislow's?
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BTW, If anyone want's to copyright their posts, I have a very nice selection of symbols and lawyers.
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Plus guns and money? 

I'm a trusting soul who prefers to paddle blithely along, but it is not a bad idea.
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Despise all you want, but your people didn't have that much appeal to moral Americans. 

Now they're all having all these meetings tryiing to figure our how they can manipulate. That's just tough shit, in my book.

Moral Americans? Moral Americans? Don't even go there. Moral Americans?? What a fucking joke. Republicans MORAL? What world do you live in? Moral Americans?

bwahahahahaha!!! What a joke.
You ignore the likes of DeLay and the other crimes your political leaders blatantly commit, and you want, NO, YOU DEMAND to wear the mantle of "moral Americans"? You have a lot of gall there barto. Honestly, your party doesn't deserve it at all.
Your phony, televangelistic political leaders are the manipulators, you fool. You've been taken for a ride by wealthy corporates and you don't even know it, or you just don't give a flying fuck.

Jesus. How can you NOT see that? How many BILLIONS will those guys shovel to their rich allies before you realize you've been had?

morally superior? jeez
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BTW, If anyone want's to copyright their posts, I have a very nice selection of symbols and lawyers.
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Yet, those legitimate gripes are mobilized and directed with the exact same techniques as are used in marketing (corporate and political). In the process of defending the "lifeworld" from encroachments of the "system world", the former is further rationalized and politicized. That causes a further erosion of the "taken-for-granted" nature of those traditions, those values, norms and mores. Those whom you call "antis" will follow suit: theirs is also a tradition of sorts which is also now "under attack". "Meaning" and "values" are increasingly going to be subject to being "produced" as if they were "demand" for a product or "support" for a party. The makings of a full-blown legitimation and motivation crisis.

Point.
What culture do you want to reclaim?
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Yet, those legitimate gripes are mobilized and directed with the exact same techniques as are used in marketing (corporate and political). In the process of defending the "lifeworld" from encroachments of the "system world", the former is further rationalized and politicized. That causes a further erosion of the "taken-for-granted" nature of those traditions, those values, norms and mores. Those whom you call "antis" will follow suit: theirs is also a tradition of sorts which is also now "under attack". "Meaning" and "values" are increasingly going to be subject to being "produced" as if they were "demand" for a product or "support" for a party. The makings of a full-blown legitimation and motivation crisis.

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Your phony, televangelistic political leaders are the manipulators, you fool. You've been taken for a ride by wealthy corporates and you don't even know it, or you just don't give a flying fuck.

Jesus. How can you NOT see that? How many BILLIONS will those guys shovel to their rich allies before you realize you've been had?[/size]

morally superior? jeez
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Hercules never shoveled so much horse shit.
http://www.health-issue-books.com/Teenage-...rrorism_37.html


The more verbatim variety is on PDF files.

Thanks Google.
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Overall, I'm personally more than content, and satisfied with were the country is and headed.

Anymore? I don't know. It's been awhile since I felt assaulted by my government. My issues now are mostly small and addressable. I truly thought and think that WACO was an assault on religious people. I was somewhat shocked and disgusted that the church I went to at the time referred to the Davidians as WACKOs, my thinking was that my brethren were drawing a finer distinction than the Clintons. Then there was welfare, since been addressed. Abortion on demand/as birth control still bothers me.But there have been a few compromise bills passed on that front.
Many things have changed since the Clinton era. The Murphy Brown speech has pretty much been validated.
There's always the WTO and NAFTA, but that's not really a culture war deal. The UN would have been had Gore been President during 911/Gulf War. But Bush has very ably quieted those fears, while most of you guys thought he was going to lose support by going it alone.
If I was a father, I'd be outraged by the system. But I'm not, so I get to shake my head at my friends and tell them 'I told you so' (they love that).

Overall, I'm personally more than content, and satisfied with were the country is and headed.
Does this mean I have to leave?
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Can I copyright this?  Just in case Jurgen Habermas didn't.
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Yes, you have to go to Canada and save someone from a bear.

I sometimes think most of what we look at is a shadow play, and WTO and NAFTA are the real show.

(I either don't know what you mean by Bush losing support "by going it alone" or don't agree. He has certainly lost international support. It's too soon to know or feel the measure of that. It's a triple or nothing bet by now at least.)
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See? you are assuming that Bart is the type of guy that listens to televangelists. And when I see his posts, the thought never crosses my mind. You are overplaying the influence of a few nuts on the right. And then shaking your head in disbelief. It would be the same thing if I told you that farakkan guy or mackinnon woman you listen to are manipulators.
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There's no fucking verbatim anything. I did not pull what I said from anywhere. Try finding it. You cannot.
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A work that is created (fixed in tangible form for the first time) on or after January 1, 1978, is automatically protected from the moment of its creation and is ordinarily given a term enduring for the author's life plus an additional 70 years after the author's death. In the case of "a joint work prepared by two or more authors who did not work for hire," the term lasts for 70 years after the last surviving author's death. For works made for hire, and for anonymous and pseudonymous works (unless the author's identity is revealed in Copyright Office records), the duration of copyright will be 95 years from publication or 120 years from creation, whichever is shorter.

I mean domestic support. Of course he'll lose support internationally.
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The "verbiage" isn't even yours. It's obscure (as usual), but it isn't original or especially insightful. I always know when you do your own work. "There's no fucking verbatim anything". AND when you hide in pilfered jargon '"lifeworld"  versus "system world"'.

If you want to discuss Habermas' theories, you ought to at least give him credit.
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At least you finally admit it. It's too bad I always have to assume you stole the bullshit you spout.
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Obvious comment withheld.

I left the MI complex out of WTO & NAFTA though they are likely part & parcel or certainly on the same larger overlay -- part of the real (not shadow) play.
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How sour are those grapes, there, bartender-boy?
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