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Art.
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 14 2004, 09:10 AM)
The long quoted excerpt from Legitimation Crisis was posted so that everyone can see that I didn't "cut-and-paste" anything.

[right][snapback]29125[/snapback][/right]


I could write out a paragraph of cold fusion theory and terminology without cutting and pasting, but I'm not sure I could make it advance any thoughts I have on a discussion here. I could post pages of related material here and I doubt anyone would pop in to tell me how great it was.
Nomarchy
QUOTE
This end is served by the separation of instrumental functions of the administration from expressive symbols that release an unspecific readiness to follow. Familiar strategies of this kind are the personalization of substantive issues, the symbolic use of hearings, expert judgments, juridical incantations, and also the advertising techniques (copied from oligopolistic competition) that at once confirm and exploit existing structures of prejudice and that garnish certain contents positively, others negatively, through appeals to feeling, stimulation of unconscious motives, [l] etc. The public realm [Offentlichkeit], set up for effective legitimation, has above all the function of directing attention to topical areas--that is, of pushing other themes, problems, and arguments below the threshold of attention and, thereby, of withholding them from opinion-formation. The political system takes over tasks of ideology planning (Luhmann). In so doing, maneuvering room is, to be sure narrowly limited, for the cultural system is peculiarly resistant to administrative control. There is no administrative production of meaning. Commercial production and administrative planning of symbols exhausts the normative force of counterfactual validity claims. The procurement of legitimation is self-defeating as soon as the mode of procurement is seen through.

Cultural traditions have their own, vulnerable, conditions of reproduction. They remain "living" as long as they take shape in an unplanned, nature-like manner, or are shaped with hermeneutic consciousness. (Whereby hermeneutics, as the scholarly interpretation and application of tradition, has the peculiarity of breaking down the nature-like character of tradition as it is handed on and, nevertheless, of retaining it at a reflective level.) [2] The critical appropriation of tradition destroys this nature-like character in discourse. (Whereby the peculiarity of critique consists in its double function [3]: to dissolve analytically, or in a critique of ideology, validity claims that cannot be discursively redeemed; but, at the same time, to release the semantic potentials of the tradition.) [4] To this extent, critique is no less a form of appropriating tradition than hermeneutics. In both cases appropriated cultural contents retain their imperative force, that is, they guarantee the continuity of a history through which individuals and groups can identify with themselves and with one another. A cultural tradition loses precisely this force as soon as it is objectivistically prepared and strategically employed. In both cases conditions for the reproduction of cultural traditions are damaged, and the tradition is undermined. This can be seen in the museum-effect of a hedonistic historicism, as well as in the wear and tear that results from the exploitation of cultural contents for administrative or market purposes. Apparently, traditions can retain legitimizing force only as long as they are not torn out of interpretive systems that guarantee continuity and identity.

The structural dissimilarity between areas of administrative action and areas of cultural tradition constitutes, then, a systematic limit to attempts to compensate for legitimation deficits through conscious manipulation. Of course, a crisis argument can be constructed from this only in connection with the broader point that the expansion of state activity produces the side effect of a disproportionate increase in the need for legitimation. I consider a disproportionate increase probable, not only because the expansion of administratively processed matters makes necessary mass loyalty for new functions of state activity, but because the boundaries of the political system vis-a-vis the cultural system shift as a result of this expansion. In this situation, cultural affairs that were taken for granted, and that were previously boundary conditions for the political system, fall into the administrative planning area. Thus, traditions withheld from the public problematic, and all the more from practical discourses, are thematized. An example of such direct administrative processing of cultural tradition is educational planning, especially curriculum planning. Whereas school administrations formerly merely had to codify a canon that had taken shape in an unplanned, nature-like manner, present curriculum planning is based on the premise that traditional patterns could as well be otherwise. Administrative planning produces a universal pressure for legitimation in a sphere that was once distinguished precisely for its power of self-legitimation. [5] Other examples of the indirect perturbation of matters taken culturally for granted can be found in regional and city planning (private ownership of land), in planning the health system ("classless hospital"), and, finally, in family planning and marriage laws (which relax sexual taboos and lower the thresholds of emancipation). The end effect is a consciousness of the contingency, not only of the contents of tradition, but also of the techniques of tradition, that is, of socialization. Formal schooling is competing with family upbringing as early as at the pre-school age. The problematization of childrearing routines can be seen in the popular pedagogical [volkspadagogischen] tasks that schools are assuming through parental rights and individual consultations, as well as in the pedagogical-psychological, scientific journalism on the subject. [6]

At every level, administrative planning produces unintended unsettling and publicizing effects. These effects weaken the justification potential of traditions that have been flushed out of their nature-like course of development. Once their unquestionable character has been destroyed, the stabilization of validity claims can succeed only through discourse. The stirring up of cultural affairs that are taken for granted thus furthers the politicization of areas of life previously assigned to the private sphere. But this development signifies danger for the civil privatism that is secured informally through the structures of the public realm. Efforts at participation and the plethora of alternative models--especially in cultural spheres such as school and university, press, church, theater, publishing, etc.--are indicators of this danger, as is the increasing number of citizens' initiatives. [7]

Demands for, and attempts at, participatory planning can also be explained in this context. Because administrative planning increasingly affects the cultural system--that is, the deep-seated representations of norms and values of those affected--and renders traditional attitudes uncertain, the threshold of acceptability changes. In order to carry through innovations in the planning process, the administration experiments with the participation of those affected. Of course, the functions of participation in governmental planning are ambivalent. [8] Gray areas arise in which it is not clear whether the need for conflict regulation is increased or decreased by participation. The more planners place themselves under the pressure of consensus-formation in the planning process, the more likely is a strain that goes back to two contrary motives: excessive demands resulting from legitimation claims that the administration cannot satisfy under conditions of an asymmetrical class compromise; and conservative resistance to planning, which contracts the horizon of planning and lowers the degree of innovation possible. Socio-psychologically viewed, both motives can be integrated into the same antagonistic interpretive pattern. Thus, analytically separable types of opposition can be represented by the same group. For this reason, laying claim to the "labor power of participation" (Naschold) is an extreme and, for the administration, risky means of meeting legitimation deficits.


http://www2.pfeiffer.edu/~lridener/courses/legitcri.html
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 14 2004, 09:21 AM)
I could write out a paragraph of cold fusion theory and terminology without cutting and pasting, but I'm not sure I could make it advance any thoughts I have on a discussion here. I could post pages of related material here and I doubt anyone would pop in to tell me how great it was.
[right][snapback]29127[/snapback][/right]


I'll let you know when I start giving a fuck about what you would do.
Ward
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 14 2004, 08:50 AM)
. I didn't figure anyone will actually read the Habermas, but there was hope. Maybe someone else will want to explore his works and fill me in on how they relate to Nomarchy's original point.
[right][snapback]29114[/snapback][/right]

I tried. Habermas is unreadable. Oh, there is no difference between "life-world" and "system-world," they are both cloned residents of jargon-world.

This was the only part of Habermas that didn't require learning a foreign language.

"As long as the welfare-state program, in conjunction with a widespread, technocratic common consciousness (which, in case of doubt, makes inalterable system restraints responsible for bottlenecks) can maintain a sufficient degree of civil privatism, legitimation needs do not have to culminate in a crisis."

Translation:

No biggie, if government doesn't totally screw the pooch.
Art.
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 14 2004, 09:24 AM)
I'll let you know when I start giving a fuck about what you would do.
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You always make it painfully obvious why I don't think you understand half of what you post. Because you're own verbal acumen always deteriorates to this level.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 14 2004, 10:29 AM)
You always make it painfully obvious why I don't think you understand half of what you post. Because you're own verbal acumen always deteriorates to this level.
[right][snapback]29134[/snapback][/right]


If a lefty writes something the other lefties don't understand, but it has lots of jargon, then they think the first lefty is an intellectual and they can all sit around saying this is true.
davis¹³
QUOTE
I was skeered I'd delete the whole place or mess something up so I just didn't mess with it.


good luck with that. I suppose we could resurect the threads if necessary.
Art.
QUOTE(Ward @ Dec 14 2004, 09:26 AM)
I tried.  Habermas is unreadable.  Oh, there is no difference between "life-world" and "system-world,"  they are both cloned residents of jargon-world.

This was the only part of Habermas that didn't require learning a foreign language.



Translation: 

No biggie, if government doesn't totally screw the pooch.
[right][snapback]29131[/snapback][/right]


Tell me, if that fucker is so smart, why the hell is there a comma between an adjective and the noun it modifies? (widespread, technocratic common consciousness) Why the fairly obvious attempt to make the sentence an incomprehensible mess?

OK. I cut out the BS and added two letters and yes, it might actually MEAN something. Though I'm not happy with the word privatism as it is a specific sociology term that might well not be what you think.



"As long as the welfare-state program can maintain a sufficient degree of civil privatism, legitimation does not have to culminate in a crisis."
davis¹³
QUOTE
If a lefty writes something the other lefties don't understand, but it has lots of jargon, then they think the first lefty is an intellectual and they can all sit around saying this is true.


I'd say that applies to the eggheads from the American Enterprise Institute or the Club for Growth as well.

Art.
QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Dec 14 2004, 09:34 AM)
good luck with that. I suppose we could resurect the threads if necessary.
[right][snapback]29136[/snapback][/right]


In this case I don't believe in resurection enough to take chances.
Ward
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Dec 14 2004, 09:41 AM)
Tell me, if that fucker is so smart, why the hell is there a comma between an adjective and the noun it modifies? [right][snapback]29139[/snapback][/right]

Because he's writing a lecture, not a thesis. The comma is a screenwriting pause.
Art.
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Dec 14 2004, 09:32 AM)
If a lefty writes something the other lefties don't understand, but it has lots of jargon, then they think the first lefty is an intellectual and they can all sit around saying this is true.
[right][snapback]29135[/snapback][/right]



Well heck, why didn't ya say so sooner? I might never a figgered it out. wink.gif
davis¹³
QUOTE
In this case I don't believe in resurection enough to take chances.


Maybe you could email their tech support and ask them if it can be done without nuking the site. Surely as user friendly as this site is, it would also be manager friendly too. They have done an excellent job. I love the overall style of the forum.

Hey, did you happen to see the Kent Brockman pic I put up with the statement, "It's in revelations people!!"?

Do you remember him doing that on the Simpsons? I couldn't believe google images had exactly what I was looking for. If they would have had the "technical difficulties" screen with Brockman as a cuckoo I would have probably died laughing.

HI is a good dude. He's funny.
Art.
QUOTE(Ward @ Dec 14 2004, 09:45 AM)
Because he's writing a lecture, not a thesis.  The comma is a screenwriting pause.
[right][snapback]29143[/snapback][/right]


Actually it's translated anyway. The point from my side is that bad writing is hiding garbled thinking. Perpetuated by people that don't know exactly what he's saying but don't want to admit it isn't all crystal clear to them. I was just using that particular point as minor evidence.

That comma wouldn't sound right anymore than it looks right.
Nomarchy
According to Habermas, human action can be analytically classified in four types: teleological, normative, dramaturgical and communicative. Only communicative action, which is really and properly interaction, involves people reaching intersubjective understanding. It also presupposes common background assumptions and stocks of knowledge, a world and reality "taken for granted", a "lifeworld". In any society, of course, one can analytically distinguish "system" processes, that is activities and organizations that have primarily to do with the material maintenance and survival of the species in general and the society's members in particular.

System processes and lifeworld processes have been differentiating (institutionally and otherwise) from each other and internally. This differentiation and specialization has resulted in enhanced productivity, control over non-human and human nature, and, overall, enhanced adaptation. On the other hand, system processes are not self-justifying. They require lifeworld processes for their justification and to produce the motivations in people to participate in them.

System processes, according to Habermas, have been "colonizing" lifeworld processes. A metaphor I find useful is this:

Think of the "system-world" as commercial fishing (and everything that goes along with it, in terms of mass consumption, distribution, marketing, etc) and the "lifeworld" as the world's oceans and seas etc. Think of the demand for "wild fish" as the search for "authentic meaning" and "authentic justifications" . . . all 'natural'. But the production process of "wild" fish follows a different logic than the production of commodities, and it follows a different logic than mass consumption. The two processes are severed. The more we "industrially harvest" (*system-world logic") the seas and oceans' "wild fish" the more we "bust up" and "destroy" the very "natural processes" that create wild, natural fish. What do we do to "solve" that problem? Consider that, and I think we can get an idea about what Habermas is talking about in terms of what he foresees as happening. The analogy is not perfect by a longshot. We would have to think of ourselves as partly and inextricably creatures of the "seas and oceans" as well.
Art.
QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Dec 14 2004, 09:49 AM)
Maybe you could email their tech support and ask them if it can be done without nuking the site. Surely as user friendly as this site is, it would also be manager friendly too. They have done an excellent job. I love the overall style of the forum.

Hey, did you happen to see the Kent Brockman pic I put up with the statement, "It's in revelations people!!"?

Do you remember him doing that on the Simpsons? I couldn't believe google images had exactly what I was looking for. If they would have had the "technical difficulties" screen with Brockman as a cuckoo I would have probably died laughing.

HI is a good dude. He's funny.
[right][snapback]29146[/snapback][/right]


I'm pretty sure it won't hurt the site. Pretty sure. But it mostly fixes minor bugs and saves space for people on busier corporate boards. I figure I'm in no hurry to invest the time and worry over something that won't help us much.

Of course I remember Kent. Can hear it in my head right now. Problem will be getting it out.

It's in revelations people! It's in revelations people! It's in revelations people!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Art.
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 14 2004, 09:52 AM)
According to Habermas,
[right][snapback]29149[/snapback][/right]


If only he were here 12 hours ago when you started.

Of course clarifying his works doesn't really answer the original question, how he relates to it, nor why he legitimizes Barts point. (or so you say)

I already restated enough of his work to know it isn't worth the effort since he ain't here, and ain't likely to show up any time soon.
davis¹³
QUOTE
Of course I remember Kent. Can hear it in my head right now. Problem will be getting it out.


I knew you'd get it. I was hoping HI would too. sometimes I forget what a twisted sense of humor I have.

I left my brother a single word Monty Python "EGGS!!!" on his answering machine the other day.

laugh.gif

Python has a new huge DVD set out. Twisted. laugh.gif

The absolute best was when I was a teen we were watching Monty Python's argument sketch. It had just come on and my mother walks through the room.

The first thing that is said in the sketch, pardon me ladies, but it's "Did you come for an argument, or a blow job?"

I thought my mom wold flip out, but she just said, "Jeez!" and left the room. Cracked us up good though. laugh.gif tongue.gif


And now for something completely different.
Ward
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 14 2004, 09:52 AM)
According to Habermas, human action can be analytically classified in four types: teleological, normative, dramaturgical and communicative. Only communicative action, which is really and properly interaction, involves people reaching intersubjective understanding. It also presupposes  common background assumptions and stocks of knowledge, a world and reality "taken for granted", a "lifeworld". In any society, of course, one can analytically distinguish "system" processes, that is activities and organizations that have primarily to do with the material maintenance and survival of the species in general and the society's members in particular.

System processes and lifeworld processes have been differentiating (institutionally and otherwise) from each other and internally. This differentiation and specialization has resulted in enhanced productivity, control over non-human and human nature, and, overall, enhanced adaptation. On the other hand, system processes are not self-justifying. They require lifeworld processes for their justification and to produce the motivations in people to participate in them.

System processes, according to Habermas, have been "colonizing" lifeworld processes. A metaphor I find useful is this:

Think of the "system-world" as commercial fishing (and everything that goes along with it, in terms of mass consumption, distribution, marketing, etc) and the "lifeworld" as the world's oceans and seas etc. Think of the demand for "wild fish" as the search for "authentic meaning" and "authentic justifications" . . . all 'natural'. But the production process of "wild" fish follows a different logic than the production of commodities, and it follows a different logic than mass consumption. The two processes are severed. The more we "industrially harvest" (*system-world logic") the seas and oceans' "wild fish" the more we "bust up" and "destroy" the very "natural processes" that create wild, natural fish. What do we do to "solve" that problem? Consider that, and I think we can get an idea about what Habermas is talking about in terms of what he foresees as happening. The analogy is not perfect by a longshot. We would have to think of ourselves as partly and inextricably creatures of the "seas and oceans" as well.
[right][snapback]29149[/snapback][/right]

Why create a new language-world for old concepts?

We already know that natureworld has been conquered by technologyworld, which is a product of Protestant ethicworld, which has been transformed into masscultureworld, which many believe is upshitscreekworld.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Ward @ Dec 14 2004, 10:07 AM)
Why create a new language-world for old concepts? 

We already know that natureworld has been conquered by technologyworld, which is a product of Protestant ethicworld, which has been transformed into masscultureworld, which many believe is upshitscreekworld.
[right][snapback]29155[/snapback][/right]


"lifeworld" is a pretty "old word". In any case, critique of Habermas as incurrably wordy and logomanic is well placed.

By the way, I thought the following made sense of what Bart Katz was talking about:

QUOTE
In this situation, cultural affairs that were taken for granted, and that were previously boundary conditions for the political system, fall into the administrative planning area. Thus, traditions withheld from the public problematic, and all the more from practical discourses, are thematized. An example of such direct administrative processing of cultural tradition is educational planning, especially curriculum planning. Whereas school administrations formerly merely had to codify a canon that had taken shape in an unplanned, nature-like manner, present curriculum planning is based on the premise that traditional patterns could as well be otherwise. Administrative planning produces a universal pressure for legitimation in a sphere that was once distinguished precisely for its power of self-legitimation
Art.
QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Dec 14 2004, 10:07 AM)
I knew you'd get it. I was hoping HI would too. sometimes I forget what a twisted sense of humor I have.

I left my brother a single word Monty Python "EGGS!!!" on his answering machine the other day.

laugh.gif

Python has a new huge DVD set out. Twisted.  laugh.gif

The absolute best was when I was a teen we were watching Monty Python's argument sketch. It had just come on and my mother walks through the room.

The first thing that is said in the sketch, pardon me ladies, but it's "Did you come for an argument, or a blow job?"

I thought my mom wold flip out, but she just said, "Jeez!" and left the room. Cracked us up good though.  laugh.gif  tongue.gif
And now for something completely different.
[right][snapback]29153[/snapback][/right]




I put the argument in the files section of the backup. Might well still be there.


I have Life of Brian on DVD but haven't seen the Holy Grail anywhere. Probably don't need it as it's already pretty much memorized. The shows used to run late on PBS. Guess I'll try and find some on DVD when things get even cheaper.

Pressed technology. I love it.
davis¹³
QUOTE
upshitscreekworld.


Ever seen the scifi show Bladerunner? One large multicultural society, but with Hispanic/Asian predominance. Seemed caucasians were in a lot of positions of power though.

i know, it's scifi. But scifi has predicted a lot of things.

I always wonder if the rich white guys are securing their future now, knowing what the ethnic makeup of the US will be eventually.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 14 2004, 11:12 AM)
"lifeworld" is a pretty "old word". In any case, critique of Habermas as incurrably wordy and logomanic is well placed.

By the way, I thought the following made sense of what Bart Katz was talking about:
[right][snapback]29160[/snapback][/right]


I thought Bart already made sense without resorting to all that bullshit. sad.gif
Bart Katz
Bart's rule #12:

If you have to stuggle to make sense of the words, or the overly complicated writing style, then it probably ain't worth reading.
Nomarchy
Try reading the Bible for comprehension, then, dumbass.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 14 2004, 11:18 AM)
Try reading the Bible for comprehension, then, dumbass.
[right][snapback]29166[/snapback][/right]


It's not that difficult. Not nearly so as all that bullshit you copy and paste here, that only the guy that wrote it and his mama could love.
davis¹³
QUOTE
Pressed technology. I love it.


I don't like DVDs or CDs because they are so fragile. There has to be a better way.


My brother has The Holy Grail on CD. Be prepared for a lot of extras. I loved the Japanese version!!! It was great!!

When John Cleese plays the Frenchman on the wall taunting Aurthur and his knights the subtitles are strange to say the least.

"You must have been raised horribly! Your parents must be ashamed!!"

It was weird. Japanese insults dealing with honor and parentage didn't exactly fit with Python.
Nomarchy
Does your sect believe in a Triune God? Try explaining that to a skeptical audience.
Ward
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 14 2004, 10:12 AM)
"lifeworld" is a pretty "old word". In any case, critique of Habermas as incurrably wordy and logomanic is well placed.

By the way, I thought the following made sense of what Bart Katz was talking about:
[right][snapback]29160[/snapback][/right]

I rarely pay much mind to what Katz talks about, but if you mean the nostalgia for 1950's educational curriculum, yes.

Technically accurate history is not spiritually inspiring or patriotic. The ethic that created technocracy is being undermined by the application of technical (amoral) accultulturation rituals. It's an evolving experiment, but as a bloated population relies increasingly on technological life support systems, the fallout from screwing the pooch is magnified.
Bart Katz
How about I throw some polymer science and tire reinforcement papers your way, mr smart guy? A lay person really ought to know how his tires are put together, right? That makes just as much sense. laugh.gif laugh.gif
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Ward @ Dec 14 2004, 11:22 AM)
I rarely pay much mind to what Katz talks about, but if you mean the nostalgia for 1950's educational curriculum, yes.

Technically accurate history is not spiritually inspiring or patriotic.  The ethic that created technocracy is being undermined by the application of technical (amoral) accultulturation rituals.  It's an evolving experiment, but as a bloated population relies increasingly on technological life support systems, the fallout from screwing the pooch is magnified.
[right][snapback]29172[/snapback][/right]


No, that's not what it was about. However from the look of your jargonese, maybe you and Nomarch should get a room together.
davis¹³
uh oh. It was time for me to leave anyway.


laugh.gif laugh.gif

asta, I'm off to brave the shopping madness.


Have fun, no blood please.
Bart Katz
user posted image
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Dec 14 2004, 10:23 AM)
No, that's not what it was about. However from the look of your jargonese, maybe you and Nomarch should get a room together.
[right][snapback]29175[/snapback][/right]



Yeah, so you and the "boys" can once again dream of "kicking our asses".


Bart Katz
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 14 2004, 11:54 AM)
Yeah, so you and the "boys" can once again dream of "kicking our asses".
[right][snapback]29197[/snapback][/right]


Nobody claimed to have kicked Ward's ass, today. laugh.gif laugh.gif
Art.
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Dec 14 2004, 10:56 AM)
Nobody claimed to have kicked Ward's ass, today.  laugh.gif  laugh.gif
[right][snapback]29199[/snapback][/right]


Certainly not I.





QUOTE
Ward 
post Today, 09:26 AM
Post #508  I tried. Habermas is unreadable. Oh, there is no difference between "life-world" and "system-world," they are both cloned residents of jargon-world.


Ward
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 14 2004, 10:54 AM)
Yeah, so you and the "boys" can once again dream of "kicking our asses".
[right][snapback]29197[/snapback][/right]

Nobody has ever kicked my ass. Part discretion, part luck.
lil bart
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 14 2004, 08:52 AM)
According to Habermas, human action can be analytically classified in four types: teleological, normative, dramaturgical and communicative. Only communicative action, which is really and properly interaction, involves people reaching intersubjective understanding. It also presupposes  common background assumptions and stocks of knowledge, a world and reality "taken for granted", a "lifeworld". In any society, of course, one can analytically distinguish "system" processes, that is activities and organizations that have primarily to do with the material maintenance and survival of the species in general and the society's members in particular.

System processes and lifeworld processes have been differentiating (institutionally and otherwise) from each other and internally. This differentiation and specialization has resulted in enhanced productivity, control over non-human and human nature, and, overall, enhanced adaptation. On the other hand, system processes are not self-justifying. They require lifeworld processes for their justification and to produce the motivations in people to participate in them.

System processes, according to Habermas, have been "colonizing" lifeworld processes. A metaphor I find useful is this:

Think of the "system-world" as commercial fishing (and everything that goes along with it, in terms of mass consumption, distribution, marketing, etc) and the "lifeworld" as the world's oceans and seas etc. Think of the demand for "wild fish" as the search for "authentic meaning" and "authentic justifications" . . . all 'natural'. But the production process of "wild" fish follows a different logic than the production of commodities, and it follows a different logic than mass consumption. The two processes are severed. The more we "industrially harvest" (*system-world logic") the seas and oceans' "wild fish" the more we "bust up" and "destroy" the very "natural processes" that create wild, natural fish. What do we do to "solve" that problem? Consider that, and I think we can get an idea about what Habermas is talking about in terms of what he foresees as happening. The analogy is not perfect by a longshot. We would have to think of ourselves as partly and inextricably creatures of the "seas and oceans" as well.
[right][snapback]29149[/snapback][/right]


Oh. Why didn't you just say so. huh.gif tongue.gif smile.gif

I don't pay enough tuition* to work this hard. Hell's Christmas bells, man, I got carols to sing and cookies to make.

*Which reminds me, Arturo, golldammit, don't make me send $20 to Mr. Vandelay, General Delivery in Tucson. We got some financial finaglings to deal out here. mad.gif


QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Dec 14 2004, 09:14 AM)
Ever seen the scifi show Bladerunner? One large multicultural society, but with Hispanic/Asian predominance. Seemed caucasians were in a lot of positions of power though.

i know, it's scifi. But scifi has predicted a lot of things.

I always wonder if the rich white guys are securing their future now, knowing what the ethnic makeup of the US will be eventually.
[right][snapback]29162[/snapback][/right]


Hispanic is not a race; Hispanic cultures are considered part of the caucasian race. That aside, sounds like a movie I might like to see.

QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Dec 14 2004, 09:20 AM)
It's not that difficult.  Not nearly so as all that bullshit you copy and paste here, that only the guy that wrote it and his mama could love.
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His mama? Yo mama. laugh.gif

QUOTE(davis¹³ @ Dec 14 2004, 09:21 AM)
I don't like DVDs or CDs because they are so fragile. There has to be a better way.
My brother has The Holy Grail on CD. Be prepared for a lot of extras. I loved the Japanese version!!! It was great!!

When John Cleese plays the Frenchman on the wall taunting Aurthur and his knights the subtitles are strange to say the least.

"You must have been raised horribly! Your parents must be ashamed!!"

It was weird. Japanese insults dealing with honor and parentage didn't exactly fit with Python.
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Elizabeth Edwards paging Mary Cheney?

Art.
QUOTE(lil bart @ Dec 14 2004, 11:17 AM)
Oh. Why didn't you just say so.  huh.gif  tongue.gif  smile.gif



*Which reminds me, Arturo, golldammit, don't make me send $20 to Mr. Vandelay, General Delivery in Tucson. We got some financial finaglings to deal out here.  mad.gif
Hispanic is not a race; Hispanic cultures are considered part of the caucasian race. That aside, sounds like a movie I might like to see.
His mama? Yo mama.  laugh.gif
Elizabeth Edwards paging Mary Cheney?
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Bee covered it for this month. I had her donate $10 in our name to Toys for Tots and save 10 for later. There is a subscription setup I could charge a couple bucks for a closed board only subscribers/donors could use. Don't sweat the small stuff. At least until after Christman/holiday season.

Right about Hispanics. Though they do like La Raza style racial talk sometimes. But they are melting in here. Like Cheech Marin said:

"Mexican Americans are named Chico and Chata and Chama and got a brother-in law named Jeff"
Nomarchy
Many Mexicanos and Chicanos in Southern Cali are not at all Caucasian by "race".

I think Davis was thinking in terms of the "look" of folks in BladeRunner, lots of East Asian and Native American (especially of the Central American variety) featured folks in that movie.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Ward @ Dec 14 2004, 11:02 AM)
Nobody has ever kicked my ass.  Part discretion, part luck.
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Likewise. Thus the "dream of" part.
Ward
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 14 2004, 12:00 PM)
Likewise. Thus the "dream of" part.
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Got it.

Close as I've come are drunken cowboys. I've heard those pointed boots do real damage to ribs.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(lil bart @ Dec 14 2004, 11:17 AM)
Oh. Why didn't you just say so.  huh.gif  tongue.gif  smile.gif

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Habermas and Critical Thinking Ben Endres Columbia University

Decentering and Reasoning Mark Weinstein Montclair State University "*** This essay is a response to Endres. "


Readable and good.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 14 2004, 01:00 PM)
Likewise. Thus the "dream of" part.
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user posted image
lil bart
Life has kicked my ass -- but good.

smerf
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Dec 14 2004, 12:07 PM)
Habermas and Critical Thinking Ben Endres Columbia University

Readable and good.
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hello nomarchy, how are you today?
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Ward @ Dec 14 2004, 01:07 PM)
Got it.

Close as I've come are drunken cowboys.  I've heard those pointed boots do real damage to ribs.
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I think that boot belongs somewhere besides your ribs.
Russ Logan
lil bart

In re the movie Bladerunner it was loosely based on the novel Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. Dick.

Some good folk in the movie - Harrison Ford, Daryl Hannah, Rutger Hauer, Sean Young, Edward James Olmos. Directed by Ridley Scott. Has a "dark future" feel to it.
lil bart
QUOTE(Russ Logan @ Dec 14 2004, 11:18 AM)
lil bart

In re the movie Bladerunner it was loosely based on the novel Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. Dick.

Some good folk in the movie - Harrison Ford, Daryl Hannah, Rutger Hauer, Sean Young, Edward James Olmos.  Directed by Ridley Scott.  Has a "dark future" feel to it.
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Did you read the novel? Compare? I think I would be intrigued by the movie. One of these days I'll get a working VCR. My ten-year-old Sony triniton is fine, but the very expensive VCR I bought as companion didn't weather well. One of these days I'll get one that does, and I'll curl up under some blankies and watch about 20 or 50 movies on the list. smile.gif
Nomarchy
QUOTE(lil bart @ Dec 14 2004, 12:21 PM)
Did you read the novel? Compare? I think I would be intrigued by the movie. One of these days I'll get a working VCR. My ten-year-old Sony triniton is fine, but the very expensive VCR I bought as companion didn't weather well. One of these days I'll get one that does, and I'll curl up under some blankies and watch about 20 or 50 movies on the list.  smile.gif
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Very cheap DVD players on the market these days, as well.

If/when you get one of those, watch the "Director's Cut" version of Bladerunner.
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