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3009, 3010, 3011, 3012, 3013, 3014, 3015, 3016, 3017, 3018, 3019, 3020, 3021, 3022, 3023, 3024, 3025, 3026, 3027, 3028, 3029, 3030, 3031, 3032, 3033, 3034, 3035, 3036, 3037, 3038, 3039, 3040, 3041, 3042, 3043, 3044, 3045, 3046, 3047, 3048, 3049, 3050, 3051, 3052, 3053, 3054, 3055, 3056, 3057, 3058, 3059, 3060, 3061, 3062, 3063, 3064, 3065, 3066, 3067, 3068, 3069, 3070, 3071, 3072, 3073, 3074, 3075, 3076, 3077, 3078, 3079, 3080, 3081, 3082, 3083, 3084, 3085, 3086, 3087, 3088, 3089, 3090, 3091, 3092, 3093, 3094, 3095, 3096, 3097, 3098, 3099, 3100, 3101, 3102, 3103, 3104, 3105, 3106, 3107, 3108, 3109, 3110, 3111, 3112, 3113, 3114, 3115, 3116, 3117, 3118, 3119, 3120, 3121, 3122, 3123, 3124, 3125, 3126, 3127, 3128, 3129, 3130, 3131, 3132, 3133, 3134, 3135, 3136, 3137, 3138, 3139, 3140, 3141, 3142, 3143, 3144, 3145, 3146, 3147, 3148, 3149, 3150, 3151, 3152, 3153, 3154, 3155, 3156, 3157, 3158, 3159, 3160, 3161, 3162, 3163, 3164, 3165, 3166, 3167, 3168, 3169, 3170, 3171, 3172, 3173, 3174, 3175, 3176, 3177, 3178, 3179, 3180, 3181, 3182, 3183, 3184, 3185, 3186, 3187, 3188, 3189, 3190, 3191, 3192, 3193, 3194, 3195, 3196, 3197, 3198, 3199, 3200, 3201, 3202, 3203
lil bart
Nov 7 2004, 05:06 PM
QUOTE (Bart Katz @ Nov 7 2004, 08:56 AM)
Who is this Grover you speak of?  I keep hearinf of him and about him and what he says or does, but I don't know who he is.
*


Norquist. Head of Americans for Tax Reform or some such. Coiner of the "shrink government till it is the size one can drown in a bathtub" mantra.

Secret funder of "initiatives" in Oregon.

Guess what, they ain't "voter initiatives" if they ain't from our voters.

I would attribute to him the character trait of "diabolical." I'd ruther see him & his ideas in the open. May the best notions win .... and God help us.
SpaceCowboy
Nov 7 2004, 05:15 PM
BTW, those of you who have thus far boycotted Fox News might want to be tuning in more often so you can learn about the nation’s new agenda.
Repub_Bub
Nov 7 2004, 05:16 PM
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Nov 7 2004, 05:12 PM)
BTW, those of you who have thus far boycotted Fox News might want to be tuning in more often so you can learn about the nation’s new agenda.
*

I'll just wait for the bee translation....
Bart Katz
Nov 7 2004, 05:20 PM
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Nov 7 2004, 11:12 AM)
BTW, those of you who have thus far boycotted Fox News might want to be tuning in more often so you can learn about the nation’s new agenda.
*


Nah, they just want to bitch about FOX, and not watch it. They get their info about what FOX is doing from moveon.org or somwhere. But, really, if they don't watch FOX, they aren't qualified to talk about it, so I just mostly ignore any uninformed comments.
underhi2p
Nov 7 2004, 05:32 PM
Rove: Specter Vows Fairness for Nominees

11 minutes ago Politics - U. S. Congress


By JENNIFER C. KERR, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The Republican in line to chair the Senate Judiciary Committee (news - web sites) pledged Sunday not to stall anti-abortion judicial nominees that President Bush (news - web sites) might nominate. The White House expressed confidence its nominees would get a fair hearing.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...id=512&ncid=716

Kewl

The AP is finally using the anti-abortion terminology. I'll be watching to make sure they use the pro-aborton terminology as well.

How kewl is that?
Bee
Nov 7 2004, 05:43 PM
QUOTE (Bart Katz @ Nov 7 2004, 12:17 PM)
Nah,  they just want to bitch about FOX, and not watch it.  They get their info about what FOX is doing from moveon.org or somwhere.  But, really, if they don't watch FOX, they aren't qualified to talk about it, so I just mostly ignore any uninformed comments.
*


Trolling?

laugh.gif

We didn't get Fox until a month or so ago. I sat and watched it out of curiousity. It's just as silly and uninformative as "moveon" and others have said. It isn't an accident their viewers are the poorest informed--by a long shot. I'd never watch that channel anyhow due to the boycott of the Fox network by my church--you all know their other programming is far below 'christian' standards--of course. The pressure is paying off, parents television council and others got the FCC to fine them several million due to the smut content. I made a little exception, you'd think the news would be the news.

Whats with the Barbie Doll silicone infused hairdos? Just like their "news stories" everything I have seen about Fox is fake, false, trickery and smut.

But, whatever floats your boat.
Bart Katz
Nov 7 2004, 05:48 PM
QUOTE (underhi2p @ Nov 7 2004, 11:29 AM)
Rove: Specter Vows Fairness for Nominees

11 minutes ago  Politics - U. S. Congress


By JENNIFER C. KERR, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The Republican in line to chair the Senate Judiciary Committee (news - web sites) pledged Sunday not to stall anti-abortion judicial nominees that President Bush (news - web sites) might nominate. The White House expressed confidence its nominees would get a fair hearing.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...id=512&ncid=716

Kewl

The AP is finally using the anti-abortion terminology.  I'll be watching to make sure they use the pro-aborton terminology as well.

How kewl is that?
*


Are you saying that AP reallly said that? Why aren't they saying "anti-pro-choice"?
Bart Katz
Nov 7 2004, 05:50 PM
QUOTE (Bee @ Nov 7 2004, 11:40 AM)
Trolling?

laugh.gif

We didn't get Fox until a month or so ago. I sat and watched it out of curiousity. It's just as silly and uninformative as "moveon" and others have said. It isn't an accident their viewers are the poorest informed--by a long shot. I'd never watch that channel anyhow due to the boycott of the Fox network by my church--you all know their other programming is far below 'christian' standards--of course. The pressure is paying off, parents television council and others got the FCC to fine them several million due to the smut content. I made a little exception, you'd think the news would be the news.

Whats with the Barbie Doll silicone infused hairdos? Just like their "news stories" everything I have seen about Fox is fake, false, trickery and smut.

But, whatever floats your boat.
*


I just don't understand how someone so progressive and enlightened would be down on "smut"? And worse yet, confuse the FEC with the FNC.
Ward
Nov 7 2004, 05:50 PM
QUOTE (underhi2p @ Nov 7 2004, 10:29 AM)
id=512&ncid=716[/url]

Kewl

The AP is finally using the anti-abortion terminology.  I'll be watching to make sure they use the pro-aborton terminology as well.

How kewl is that?
*

This may come as a surprise to you, Underhi, but AP is under no obligation to consult the Phyllis Shlafly style manual before going to print. Since social conservatives in this country are almost universally opposed to RU486, perhaps "zygote worshippers" would be apt terminology.
Bee
Nov 7 2004, 05:59 PM
QUOTE (Bart Katz @ Nov 7 2004, 12:47 PM)
I just don't understand how someone so progressive and enlightened would be down on "smut"?  And worse yet, confuse the FEC with the FNC.
*


Progressives are not for smut on broadcast stations during Family Hour. That's not progressive, it's just sick.

What do the FEC or the FNC have to do with the FCC? Methinks you may be confused.
Bee
Nov 7 2004, 06:00 PM
QUOTE (Ward @ Nov 7 2004, 12:47 PM)
This may come as a surprise to you, Underhi, but AP is under no obligation to consult the Phyllis Shlafly style manual before going to print.  Since social conservatives in this country are almost universally opposed to RU486, perhaps "zygote worshippers" would be apt terminology.
*


I'm still waiting for the big protests at fertility clinics.
Bart Katz
Nov 7 2004, 06:04 PM
QUOTE (Bee @ Nov 7 2004, 11:56 AM)
Progressives are not for smut on broadcast stations during Family Hour. That's not progressive, it's just sick.

What do the FEC or the FNC have to do with the FCC? Methinks you may be confused.
*



FEC = Fox Entertainment Channel

FNC = Fox News Channel
Bart Katz
Nov 7 2004, 06:06 PM
QUOTE (Bee @ Nov 7 2004, 11:57 AM)
I'm still waiting for the big protests at fertility clinics.
*


Maybe I'll go down to the sperm bank and make a deposit. smile.gif
Repub_Bub
Nov 7 2004, 06:07 PM
QUOTE (Bee @ Nov 7 2004, 05:40 PM)
I'd never watch that channel anyhow due to the boycott of the Fox network by my church--you all know their other programming is far below 'christian' standards--of

Just curious, but what church would be boycotting Fox?
lil bart
Nov 7 2004, 06:10 PM
QUOTE (Ward @ Nov 7 2004, 09:47 AM)
This may come as a surprise to you, Underhi, but AP is under no obligation to consult the Phyllis Shlafly style manual before going to print.  Since social conservatives in this country are almost universally opposed to RU486, perhaps "zygote worshippers" would be apt terminology.
*


I'm ag'in all euphemisms. Including "pro-life" and "pro-choice."

Euphemisms are deadly or at least corrosive to clarity of thought & discussion.
Bart Katz
Nov 7 2004, 06:16 PM
This morning at the Church of What's Happening Now the pastor announced that Bush had won a mandate, and got plenty of Amens and then a standing ovation. Then everyone went to the church dining room and had dinner while watching porn on the big screen TV. laugh.gif
Repub_Bub
Nov 7 2004, 06:17 PM
QUOTE (Bart Katz @ Nov 7 2004, 06:13 PM)
This morning at the Church of What's Happening Now the pastor announced that Bush had won a mandate, and got plenty of Amens and then a standing ovation.  Then everyone went to the church dining room and had dinner while watching porn on the big screen TV.  laugh.gif
*

Saints came marchin' in.
Ward
Nov 7 2004, 06:28 PM
QUOTE (lil bart @ Nov 7 2004, 11:07 AM)
I'm ag'in all euphemisms. Including "pro-life" and "pro-choice."

Euphemisms are deadly or at least corrosive to clarity of thought & discussion.
*

Ditto. My least favorite this decade is "terrrorists."
Bart Katz
Nov 7 2004, 06:29 PM
Bee
Nov 7 2004, 07:12 PM
QUOTE (Repub_Bub @ Nov 7 2004, 01:04 PM)
Just curious, but what church would be boycotting Fox?
*


A whole lot of them. It's nothing new, Bub. Mine is St. John's Lutheran. We've been boycotting for a few years now.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_..._10/ai_54062709
Bart Katz
Nov 7 2004, 07:35 PM
What do you all Luterans think about queer week in Orlando with all those people running around Disney World playing grab ass?
underhi2p
Nov 7 2004, 07:42 PM
I've been boycotting the Unitarian Universalist Association.

It's the only "church" I know that stands for nothing.
Bee
Nov 7 2004, 07:44 PM
QUOTE (underhi2p @ Nov 7 2004, 02:39 PM)
I've been boycotting the Unitarian Universalist Association.

It's the only "church" I know that stands for nothing.
*


Aren't they the ones that said the world would end in 1900?

There's one down the street from ours.
underhi2p
Nov 7 2004, 07:45 PM
QUOTE (Bee @ Nov 7 2004, 03:41 PM)
Aren't they the ones that said the world would end in 1900?

There's one down the street from ours.
*



Dunno.

They are a political action committee of the radical left.
Bee
Nov 7 2004, 07:47 PM
QUOTE (Bart Katz @ Nov 7 2004, 02:32 PM)
What do you all Luterans think about queer week in Orlando with all those people running around Disney World playing grab ass?
*


Disney is private property, whereas broadcast is "public space."

These NE Lutherans do respect the concept of privacy, as far as I can tell. I miss BruceMo. He was a "Missouri Lutheran." It was interesting the differences in attitude between the denominations, although there was quite a bit similar.
Bart Katz
Nov 7 2004, 07:59 PM
QUOTE (Bee @ Nov 7 2004, 01:44 PM)
Disney is private property, whereas broadcast is "public space."

These NE Lutherans do respect the concept of privacy, as far as I can tell. I miss BruceMo. He was a "Missouri Lutheran." It was interesting the differences in attitude between the denominations, although there was quite a bit similar.
*


They could just change the channel. An you can always block kids from channels, and websites as well.

I suppose the people at Disney and other Orlando attractions can make their little kids wear burkas with no eye holes. sad.gif
Bart Katz
Nov 7 2004, 08:07 PM
QUOTE
AN X-RAY machine that sees through air passengers’ clothes has been
deployed by security staff at London’s Heathrow airport for the first time.

The device at Terminal 4 produces a “naked” image of passengers by
bouncing X-rays off their skin, enabling staff instantly to spot any
hidden weapons or explosives.



But the graphic nature of the black and white images it generates —
including revealing outlines of men and women — has raised concerns
about privacy both among travellers and aviation authorities.

In America, transport officials are refusing to deploy the device until
it can be further refined to “mask” passengers’ modesty.

The Terminal 4 trial — being conducted jointly by the British Airports
Authority and the Department for Transport — became fully operational
last month and is intended to run until the end of the year. Its
deployment has not been reported until now since new security measures
at airports are not normally publicised.

If the new body scanner is able to cope with large volumes of
passengers, improves detection rates and, crucially, receives public
acceptance, it is likely to be rolled out across all Britain’s airports.

At Heathrow, passengers are picked to go through the body scanner on a
random and voluntary basis. Those who refuse are subjected to an
automatic hand search.

The scanner, which resembles a tall, grey filing cabinet, operates in a
curtained area and passengers are asked to stand in front of it,
adopting several poses, for their “naked” image to be registered. Once
checked, the images are immediately erased.

Security officials claim it is a far more effective way of countering
potential terrorists because it detects the outline of any solid object
— such as plastic explosives or ceramic knives — which conventional
metal detectors would miss.

Managers at Heathrow also say the new technology does away with the need
to subject passengers to potentially intrusive hand searches. However,
travellers who have been screened — and have asked to see the images —
have been surprised by their clarity.

“I was quite shocked by what I saw,” said Gary Cook, 40, a graphic
designer from Shaftesbury, Dorset. “I felt a bit embarrassed looking at
the image.

A female passenger, who did not want to be named, said: “It was really
horrible. It doesn’t leave much to the imagination because you’re
virtually naked, but I guess it’s less intrusive than being hand searched.”

In a similar trial at Orlando international airport in Florida in 2002,
passengers were shown a dummy image before going through, and at least a
quarter of them refused to volunteer.

In America last year, Susan Hallowell, director of the US Transportation
Security Administration’s (TSA) security laboratory, showed off her own
x-ray image to demonstrate the technology to reporters.

“It basically makes you look fat and naked, but you see all this stuff,”
said Hallowell, who had deliberately hidden a gun and a bomb under her
clothes.

The TSA has decided not to deploy the device at American airports until
manufacturers can develop an electronic means of masking sensitive body
parts.

Ward
Nov 7 2004, 08:20 PM
I saw some of Dubya's Thursday press conference. I saw MANDATE in his eyes, his banter, and his words.

To his credit, though, I have never heard an American president speak so kindly and inclusively of agnostics. From Dubya's Thursday press conference:
QUOTE
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, my answer to people is, I will be your President regardless of your faith, and I don't expect you to agree with me necessarily on religion. As a matter of fact, no President should ever try to impose religion on our society.

A great -- the great tradition of America is one where people can worship the way they want to worship. And if they choose not to worship, they're just as patriotic as your neighbor...
lil bart
Nov 7 2004, 08:41 PM
QUOTE (underhi2p @ Nov 7 2004, 11:39 AM)
I've been boycotting the Unitarian Universalist Association.

It's the only "church" I know that stands for nothing.
*


The Unitarian Church is where old Communists go to pray. Or so I was told long time back. Old American lefties are really not so Godforsaken.

QUOTE (Ward @ Nov 7 2004, 12:17 PM)
I saw some of Dubya's Thursday press conference.  I saw MANDATE in his eyes, his banter, and his words. 

To his credit, though, I have never heard an American president speak so kindly and inclusively of agnostics.  From Dubya's Thursday press conference:
*


As to MANDATE, we saw that in his actions almost immediately after the last election. Yes, this time it is overt, heavy in its proclamation & stance. So be it. We will see what if any the opposition to specific policies is. Let the issue debates wage on!
Repub_Bub
Nov 7 2004, 09:13 PM
QUOTE (Bee @ Nov 7 2004, 07:09 PM)
A whole lot of them. It's nothing new, Bub. Mine is St. John's Lutheran. We've been boycotting for a few years now.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_..._10/ai_54062709
*

Thanks for your reply...I don't ever remember seeing anything at all like the Jerry Springer show on FOX...Could be the difference between Fox News and Fox Entertainment ( which I have rarely viewed).
Repub_Bub
Nov 7 2004, 09:16 PM
QUOTE (Ward @ Nov 7 2004, 08:17 PM)
I saw some of Dubya's Thursday press conference.  I saw MANDATE in his eyes, his banter, and his words. 

You any kin to the lioness? She could tell he knew all about 9-11 before it happened by just watchin videos of his reactions.
Ward
Nov 7 2004, 09:25 PM
QUOTE (Repub_Bub @ Nov 7 2004, 02:13 PM)
You any kin to the lioness? She could tell he knew all about 9-11 before it happened by just watchin videos of his reactions.
*

OK, I can't see poop in his eyes, and have a difficult time following his words. But his banter with the press was giddyfull of mandate juice.
QUOTE
THE PRESIDENT: Now that I've got the will of the people at my back, I'm going to start enforcing the one-question rule. That was three questions. (Laughter.)

THE PRESIDENT: Again, he violated the one-question rule right off the bat. Obviously, you didn't listen to the will of the people.
underhi2p
Nov 7 2004, 09:32 PM
Leon Panetta, who served as White House chief of staff for Clinton, said Democrats must stop making fun of conservative churchgoers and stop dismissing abortion foes out of hand. He said the barely concealed Kerry campaign tactic of portraying Bush as a dumb rube backfired.

"There was so much anti-Bush feeling out there, he became a joke, and the people who supported him were treated like a joke," Panetta said. "His supporters decided they weren't going to put up with that."

Democrats will consign themselves to permanent minority-party status, Panetta said, if they cede the South and much of the rest of the country.

"We have to be willing to understand how to appeal to families - the rural people and conservatives who live in those states," he said. "They worry about the moral direction of the country as well as the economy. That doesn't mean we have to suddenly turn around and be against a woman's right to choose. But we have to be more understanding and respectful of these deep beliefs."

http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/sto...-12261403c.html
Nomarchy
Nov 7 2004, 10:34 PM
QUOTE (underhi2p @ Nov 7 2004, 02:29 PM)
Leon Panetta, who served as White House chief of staff for Clinton, said Democrats must stop making fun of conservative churchgoers and stop dismissing abortion foes out of hand. He said the barely concealed Kerry campaign tactic of portraying Bush as a dumb rube backfired.

"There was so much anti-Bush feeling out there, he became a joke, and the people who supported him were treated like a joke," Panetta said. "His supporters decided they weren't going to put up with that."

Democrats will consign themselves to permanent minority-party status, Panetta said, if they cede the South and much of the rest of the country.

"We have to be willing to understand how to appeal to families - the rural people and conservatives who live in those states," he said. "They worry about the moral direction of the country as well as the economy. That doesn't mean we have to suddenly turn around and be against a woman's right to choose. But we have to be more understanding and respectful of these deep beliefs."

http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/sto...-12261403c.html
*


I think that's a bunch of bull poopoo. What does "more understanding and respectful of these deep beliefs" mean in practice? How does one "understand and respect" the "deep beliefs" of people when they are not satisfied with not being interfered with in their own peaceful enjoyment of their rights, but are intent on preventing anyone else from peacefully enjoying their rights in ways which run against the "deep believers"'s preferences? How does one understand and respect someone else's "deep beliefs" when the latter is a sanctimonious blowhard who demonizes one at every turn, and wants to impose his/her metaphysical views and justifications for how to lead his/her life on everyone else?

And, lest it go unnonticed, the "frivolity" and "libertine lifestyle" of which those "deep believers" rail against is 1. practiced underground by many in their midst (just ask where the online gamblers and pornography addicts live) and 2. supports their own livelihood.

Prayer-in-school, restrictions on the abortion and other reproductive rights of adult women, etc. are not "deeply held values" that one can compromise with and "understand".
Guest
Nov 8 2004, 12:20 AM
QUOTE (Nomarchy @ Nov 7 2004, 10:31 PM)
I think that's a bunch of bull poopoo. What does "more understanding and respectful of these deep beliefs" mean in practice? How does one "understand and respect" the "deep beliefs" of people when they are not satisfied with not being interfered with in their own peaceful enjoyment of their rights, but are intent on preventing anyone else from peacefully enjoying their rights in ways which run against the "deep believers"'s preferences? How does one understand and respect someone else's "deep beliefs" when the latter is a sanctimonious blowhard who demonizes one at every turn, and wants to impose his/her metaphysical views and justifications for how to lead his/her life on everyone else?

And, lest it go unnonticed, the "frivolity" and "libertine lifestyle" of which those "deep believers" rail against is 1. practiced underground by many in their midst (just ask where the online gamblers and pornography addicts live) and 2. supports their own livelihood.

Prayer-in-school, restrictions on the abortion and other reproductive rights of adult women, etc. are not "deeply held values" that one can compromise with and "understand".
*


Perhaps he envisions an attempt on a more sub-conscious level. An appeal, as it were, to basic creative instincts in hopes of producing men of good conscience; men whose efforts may naturally produce positive transformation. smile.gif
lil bart
Nov 8 2004, 12:56 AM
QUOTE (Guest @ Nov 7 2004, 04:17 PM)
Perhaps he envisions an attempt on a more sub-conscious level. An appeal, as it were, to basic creative instincts in hopes of producing men of good conscience; men whose efforts may naturally produce positive transformation.  smile.gif
*


Ok, everybody. Put on your Guessing Suits.

Was that Repub Bub, or Beebs?

rolleyes.gif
SpaceCowboy
Nov 8 2004, 01:11 AM
QUOTE (lil bart @ Nov 7 2004, 07:53 PM)
Ok, everybody. Put on your Guessing Suits.

Was that Repub Bub, or Beebs?

rolleyes.gif
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It's not hard to tell Bub.
SpaceCowboy
Nov 8 2004, 01:17 AM
Kewl CNN special on Saudi is on.
Ward
Nov 8 2004, 01:18 AM
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Nov 7 2004, 06:08 PM)
It's not hard to tell Bub.
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I'll bet my Jenna Jamison DVD collection it was Bub.
lil bart
Nov 8 2004, 01:23 AM
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Nov 7 2004, 05:08 PM)
It's not hard to tell Bub.
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Not to be casting asparagus or anything.

Heaven forfend snerts, smirks or snortles.
Ward
Nov 8 2004, 01:39 AM
QUOTE (Nomarchy @ Nov 7 2004, 03:31 PM)
How does one understand and respect someone else's "deep beliefs" when the latter is a sanctimonious blowhard who demonizes one at every turn, and wants to impose his/her metaphysical views and justifications for how to lead his/her life on everyone else?
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I could easily compromise on voluntary prayer in schools, but not a mandatory pledge of allegiance (with or without God in it.)

As to reproductive rights--no way can that be compromised. Reproductive rights are a subset of a simple principle that adults have (or should have) sole decision making powers over what goes into or comes out of one's body-- rights of bodily integrity.

Catholic Democrats like Kerry and Panetta aggravate me with thier sanctimonious tolerance of abortion. Kerry thinks abortionists are murderers, but he won't do anything about it. How is that "respectful" of his own beliefs, much less the bodily integrity of others? Thanks for the insults, Catholics. FU too.
Bee
Nov 8 2004, 02:35 AM
QUOTE (Ward @ Nov 7 2004, 08:36 PM)
I could easily compromise on voluntary prayer in schools, but not a mandatory pledge of allegiance (with or without God in it.) 

As to reproductive rights--no way can that be compromised.  Reproductive rights are a subset of a simple principle that adults have (or should have) sole decision making powers over what goes into or comes out of one's body-- rights of bodily integrity. 

Catholic Democrats like Kerry and Panetta aggravate me with thier sanctimonious tolerance of abortion.  Kerry thinks abortionists are murderers, but he won't do anything about it.  How is that "respectful" of his own beliefs, much less the bodily integrity of others?  Thanks for the insults, Catholics.  FU too.
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How exactly is that worse then Bush's position? Kerry says he believes that his personal religious beliefs should not preclude the law, nor would he attempt to change it. That earns your disdain? Well, gee. Not terribly tolerant are you, ward?

Kerry respects the law, Bush doesn't. Perhaps your venom would be best addressed to those that are actively trying to ram their religious beliefs down your throat.

That would be Bush, not Kerry.

blink.gif
lil bart
Nov 8 2004, 02:56 AM
Wardlet cannot respond at the moment. He is ensuring, or violating, the sanctity of his Jenna Jamison DVD collection.

(Whoever that is.)
Ward
Nov 8 2004, 03:04 AM
QUOTE (Bee @ Nov 7 2004, 07:32 PM)
How exactly is that worse then Bush's position? Kerry says he believes that his personal religious beliefs should not preclude the law, nor would he attempt to change it. That earns your disdain? Well, gee. Not terribly tolerant are you, ward?

Kerry respects the law, Bush doesn't. Perhaps your venom would be best addressed to those that are actively trying to ram their religious beliefs down your throat.

That would be Bush, not Kerry.
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The national political debate on abortion is between those who think abortion is murder, and those who would prosecute it as such. Why should I be tolerant of witch hunts or people who support the ideology underlying witch hunts?

There are a shitload of powerful reproductive technologies coming down the pike that are going to require clear heads to sort out the legal, medical, ethical and social implications. Paying lip service to the rantings of scientifically ignorant superstitious preachers isn't helping to advance meaningful dialog or, apparently, win elections.
Repub_Bub
Nov 8 2004, 03:05 AM
QUOTE (Ward @ Nov 8 2004, 01:36 AM)
I could easily compromise on voluntary prayer in schools, but not a mandatory pledge of allegiance (with or without God in it.) 

As to reproductive rights--no way can that be compromised.  Reproductive rights are a subset of a simple principle that adults have (or should have) sole decision making powers over what goes into or comes out of one's body-- rights of bodily integrity. 

Catholic Democrats like Kerry and Panetta aggravate me with thier sanctimonious tolerance of abortion.  Kerry thinks abortionists are murderers, but he won't do anything about it.  How is that "respectful" of his own beliefs, much less the bodily integrity of others?  Thanks for the insults, Catholics.  FU too.
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Can't escape the login curse....sorry.
Interesting posts, ward.
(1) What's wrong with a pledge of allegiance?
(2) After having gone into and coming out of someone's body I'm glad someone considered my rights in the reproductive process.
(3) What's so special about the bodily integrity of others? It should be more of an appreciation of trust, rather than a selfish preoccupation with oneself, to have absolute control over the life of another.
davisął
Nov 8 2004, 03:07 AM
QUOTE
Prayer-in-school, restrictions on the abortion and other reproductive rights of adult women, etc. are not "deeply held values" that one can compromise with and "understand".




Welcome to the unethical corporate theocracy.

God bless you and chaaa-ching!! (thanks for the donation)
lil bart
Nov 8 2004, 03:15 AM
QUOTE (Repub_Bub @ Nov 7 2004, 07:02 PM)
<snip>
(3) What's so special about the bodily integrity of others? It should be more of an appreciation of trust, rather than a selfish preoccupation with oneself,  to have absolute control over the life of another.[Bold added]
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What are you saying here?
Repub_Bub
Nov 8 2004, 03:16 AM
QUOTE (davisął @ Nov 8 2004, 03:04 AM)
Welcome to the unethical corporate theocracy.

God bless you and chaaa-ching!! (thanks for the donation)
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Not everyone has to buy their women, davis...but I understand.
Repub_Bub
Nov 8 2004, 03:19 AM
QUOTE (lil bart @ Nov 8 2004, 03:12 AM)
What are you saying here?
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Didn't mean to be cryptic....just that I would suspect that most mothers welcome the opportunity. Others seem more preoccupied with themselves...elective abortion to avoid the pesky annoyances.
Ward
Nov 8 2004, 03:34 AM
QUOTE (Repub_Bub @ Nov 7 2004, 08:02 PM)
Can't escape the login curse....sorry.
Interesting posts, ward.
(1) What's wrong with a pledge of allegiance?
(2) After having gone into and coming out of someone's body I'm  glad someone considered my rights in the reproductive process.
(3) What's so special about the bodily integrity of others? It should be more of an appreciation of trust, rather than a selfish preoccupation with oneself,  to have absolute control over the life of another.
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1) For starters, I don't pledge allegiance to symbols (flags). I should not be forced to pledge anything, except perhaps to tell the truth under oath in court.
2) As men, we have no rights in the reproductive process--only desires and obligations.
3) Bodily integrity is as basic an individual sovereignty issue as there is. I understand that gestation involves more than one human life, but I do not concede spritual "innocence" to fertilized eggs. If a woman has a bad feeling about a pregnancy, I defer to her choice in terminating.
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