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Nomarchy
QUOTE
Major works

[edit] Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity (1990)
Main article: Gender Trouble
In 1990, Butler's book Gender Trouble burst onto the scene, selling over 100,000 copies internationally and in different languages. Alluding to the similarly named 1974 John Waters film Female Trouble starring the drag queen Divine[3], Gender Trouble critically discusses the works of Simone de Beauvoir, Julia Kristeva, Sigmund Freud, Jacques Lacan, Luce Irigaray, Monique Wittig, Jacques Derrida, and, most significantly, Michel Foucault. The book was popular enough that it even inspired an intellectual fanzine, Judy!.[4]

The crux of Butler's argument in Gender Trouble is that the coherence of the categories of sex, gender, and sexuality—the natural-seeming coherence, for example, of masculine gender and heterosexual desire in male bodies—is culturally constructed through the repetition of stylized acts in time. These stylized bodily acts, in their repetition, establish the appearance of an essential, ontological "core" gender. This is the sense in which Butler famously theorizes gender, along with sex and sexuality, as performative. The performance of gender, sex, and sexuality, however, is not a voluntary choice for Butler, who locates the construction of the gendered, sexed, desiring subject within what she calls, borrowing from Foucault’s Discipline and Punish, "regulative discourses." These, also called "frameworks of intelligibility" or "disciplinary regimes," decide in advance what possibilities of sex, gender, and sexuality are socially permitted to appear as coherent or "natural." Regulative discourse includes within it disciplinary techniques which, by coercing subjects to perform specific stylized actions, maintain the appearance in those subjects of the "core" gender, sex and sexuality the discourse itself produces.[5]

A significant yet sometimes overlooked part of Butler's argument concerns the role of sex in the construction of "natural" or coherent gender and sexuality. Butler explicitly challenges biological accounts of binary sex, reconceiving the sexed body as itself culturally constructed by regulative discourse.[6] The supposed obviousness of sex as a natural biological fact attests to how deeply its production in discourse is concealed. The sexed body, once established as a “natural” and unquestioned “fact,” is the alibi for constructions of gender and sexuality, unavoidably more cultural in their appearance, which can purport to be the just-as-natural expressions or consequences of a more fundamental sex. On Butler’s account, it is on the basis of the construction of natural binary sex that binary gender and heterosexuality are likewise constructed as natural.[7] In this way, Butler claims that without a critique of sex as produced by discourse, the sex/gender distinction as a feminist strategy for contesting constructions of binary asymmetric gender and compulsory heterosexuality will be ineffective.[8]

The concept of gender performativity is at the core of Butler's work. It extends beyond the doing of gender and can be understood as a full-fledged theory of subjectivity. Indeed, if her most recent books have shifted focus away from gender, they still treat performativity as theoretically central.


[edit] Bodies That Matter: On the Discursive Limits of "Sex" (1993)
Bodies That Matter seeks to clear up mis/readings of performativity that view the enactment of sex/gender as a daily choice.[9] To do this, Butler emphasizes the role of repetition in performativity, making use of Derrida's theory of iterability, a form of citationality, to work out a theory of performativity in terms of iterability:

Performativity cannot be understood outside of a process of iterability, a regularized and constrained repetition of norms. And this repetition is not performed by a subject; this repetition is what enables a subject and constitutes the temporal condition for the subject. This iterability implies that 'performance' is not a singular 'act' or event, but a ritualized production, a ritual reiterated under and through constraint, under and through the force of prohibition and taboo, with the threat of ostracism and even death controlling and compelling the shape of the production, but not, I will insist, determining it fully in advance.[10]

Iterability, in its endless undeterminedness as to-be-determinedness, is thus precisely that aspect of performativity that makes the production of the "natural" sexed, gendered, heterosexual subject possible, while also and at the same time opening that subject up to the possibility of its incoherence and contestation.


[edit] Excitable Speech: A Politics of the Performative (1997)
In Excitable Speech, Butler surveys the problems of hate speech and censorship. She argues that censorship is difficult to evaluate, and that in some cases it may be useful or even necessary, while in others it may be worse than tolerance. She develops a new conception of censorship’s complex workings, supplanting the myth of the independent subject who wields the power to censor with a theory of censorship as an effect of state power and, more primordially, as the condition of language and discourse itself.

Butler argues that hate speech exists retrospectively, only after being declared such by state authorities.[citation needed] In this way, the state reserves for itself the power to define hate speech and, conversely, the limits of acceptable discourse. In this connection, Butler criticizes feminist legal scholar Catharine MacKinnon's argument against pornography for its unquestioning acceptance of the state’s power to censor. Butler warns that such appeals to state power may backfire on progressivists like MacKinnon who seek social change, in her case to end patriarchal oppression, through legal reforms. She cites for example the R. A. V. v. City of St. Paul 1992 Supreme Court case, which overturned the conviction of a teenager for burning a cross on the lawn of an African American family, in the name of the First Amendment.[citation needed]

Deploying Foucault’s argument from The History of Sexuality Vol. 1, Butler claims that any attempt at censorship, legal or otherwise, necessarily propagates the very language it seeks to forbid.[11] As Foucault argues, for example, the strict sexual mores of 19th century Western Europe did nothing but amplify the discourse of sexuality it sought to control.[12] Extending this argument using Derrida and Lacan, Butler claims that censorship is primitive to language, and that the linguistic “I” is a mere effect of an originary censorship. In this way, Butler questions the possibility of any genuinely oppositional discourse; "If speech depends upon censorship, then the principle that one might seek to oppose is at once the formative principle of oppositional speech".[13]

Butler also questions the efficacy of censorship on the grounds that hate speech is context-dependent. Citing J.L. Austin's concept of the performative utterance, Butler notes that words’ ability to “do things” makes hate speech possible but also at the same time dependent on its specific embodied context.[citation needed] Austin’s claim that what a word “does,” its illocutionary force, varies with the context in which it is uttered implies that it is impossible to adequately define the performative meanings of words, including hate, abstractly.[citation needed] On this basis, Butler rejects arguments like Richard Delgado’s which justify the censorship of certain specific words by claiming the use of those words constitutes hate speech in any context. In this way, Butler underlines the difficulty inherent in efforts to systematically identify hate speech.


[edit] Undoing Gender (2004)
Undoing Gender collects Butler's reflections on gender, sex, sexuality, psychoanalysis and the medical treatment of intersex for a more general readership than many of her other books. Butler revisits and refines her notion of performativity, which is the focus of Gender Trouble.

In her discussion of intersex, Butler addresses the case of David Reimer, a person whose sex was medically "reassigned" from male to female after a botched circumcision at eight months of age. Reimer was "made" female by doctors, but later in life identified as "really" male, and ultimately committed suicide.[14].


[edit] Giving an Account of Oneself (2005)
In Giving an Account of Oneself, Butler develops an ethics based on the opacity of the subject to itself, the limits of self-knowledge. Borrowing from Adorno, Foucault, Nietzsche, Laplanche and Levinas, among others, Butler develops a theory of the formation of the subject as a relation to the social – a community of others and their norms – which is beyond the control of the subject it forms as precisely the very condition of that subject’s formation, the resources by which the subject becomes recognizably human, a grammatical "I", in the first place. The subject is therefore dispossessed of itself by an other or others as the very condition of its being at all, and this process by which I become myself only in relation to others and therefore cannot own myself completely, this constitutive dispossession, is the opacity of the contemporary subject to itself, what I cannot know, possess, and master consciously about myself.

Butler then turns to the ethical question: If my narrative account of myself is necessarily incomplete, breaking down tellingly at the point precisely when "I" am called to elucidate the foundations of this "I", my genesis and ontology, what kind of ethical agent, or "I", am "I"?[citation needed] Butler rejects the claim that if the subject is opaque to itself it is necessarily free of ethical responsibility and obligations.[citation needed] Instead she argues for an ethics based precisely on the limits of self-knowledge as the limits of responsibility itself.[citation needed] Any concept of responsibility which demands the full transparency of the self to itself, an entirely accountable self, necessarily does violence to the opacity which marks the constitution of the self it addresses. The scene of address by which responsibility is enabled is always already a relation between subjects who are variably opaque to themselves and to each other. The ethics that Butler envisions is therefore one in which the responsible self knows the limits of its knowing, recognizes the limits of its capacity to give an account of itself to others, and respects those limits as symptomatically human.[citation needed] To take seriously one's opacity to oneself in ethical deliberation means then to critically interrogate the social world in which one comes to be human in the first place and which remains precisely that which one cannot know about oneself. In this way, Butler locates social and political critique at the core of ethical practice.[citation needed]


[edit] Style and politics
Butler's academic (though not her popular) writing is dense and theoretical. Butler explains the density of her academic writing by reference to Theodor Adorno, who comments on the necessity to break from traditional language if one is to subvert the dominant cultural narrative.[citation needed]

In a London Review of Books article published in August 2003, Butler identifies herself as an anti-Zionist Jewish American who is concerned with the loss of academic freedom implicitly advocated by pro-Israeli groups.[15] She expounds upon her views on Zionism in a section of Precarious Life examining a debacle surrounding Harvard President Lawrence Summers. On September 7th, 2006, she partook in a faculty-organized teach-in at the University of California, Berkeley, scrutinizing the Israeli war on Lebanon during the summer.[16]


[edit]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Butler
Nomarchy
QUOTE
If you really do not have the inability to distinguish between your sexual orientation, pedophilia, and moral actions such as theft, then the only thing standing between you and robbery, raping children, etc., is your religious beliefs. If true, that makes us very different, and that difference is very creepy. I’m sure you really do have the ability to make these simple distinctions and are just being difficult, however.


So, sexual orientation is NOT a moral matter, whatever its provenance and etiology?

I am not asking whether it SHOULD be a 'moral' matter, but whether it is EXPERIENCED as a moral matter, treated as a moral matter, etc.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE
Butler's academic (though not her popular) writing is dense and theoretical. Butler explains the density of her academic writing by reference to Theodor Adorno, who comments on the necessity to break from traditional language if one is to subvert the dominant cultural narrative.[citation needed]


Maybe Butler could use Klingon. rolleyes.gif
hunin
Finally a sex folder. wink.gif
Arturo_Vandelay
It was more fun when it was intertwined with Nuclear Iran.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Apr 19 2007, 05:47 PM) [snapback]296825[/snapback]

It was more fun when it was intertwined with Nuclear Iran.


As it should be (from some perspectives).
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Apr 19 2007, 07:39 PM) [snapback]296819[/snapback]

Maybe Butler could use Klingon. rolleyes.gif

You've got to be pretty tricky when you are subverting the dominant social norm.

Maybe they should use candy. smile.gif
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(Innocent @ Apr 19 2007, 04:47 PM) [snapback]296799[/snapback]

You haven't even answered basic questions that would allow me to understand your position, such as "Are you able to differentiate your sexual orientation from theft."

A more appropriate question would be: could one differentiate his sexual orientation from an equally substantial urge to steal?

My attempt had been to simply equate orientation with tendency, propensity, urge, inclination and etc. The point being that whatever the propensity one can certainly differentiate between the style and degree of urges...and can, barring forms of insanity, maintain responsibililty for his actions in pursuit of satisfying the urge.

QUOTE(Innocent @ Apr 19 2007, 04:47 PM) [snapback]296799[/snapback]

What one chooses to believe theologically as an individual or as a faith community is certainly their own personal concern. However, the argumentation you have used is classic SBC fundamentalist evangelical Baptism, which is very much an extreme for of religion. smile.gif

I merely compared my beliefs to traditional Methodist/Baptist so I'm at a bit of a loss to understand how you can label me so subjectively or how the above might be construed as an extreme form of religion.

Surely you don't mean to suggest that since it ain't Catholic its gotta be a rogue?
Nomarchy
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Apr 19 2007, 05:50 PM) [snapback]296832[/snapback]

You've got to be pretty tricky when you are subverting the dominant social norm.


In all candor, Butler cannot really use that 'excuse' (or, ahem, explanation) for the . . . opacity of her academic lingo (opacity being one of her favorite words, along with iterability, phantasmatic, etc.) as liberally as she would like.
Mizilus
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Apr 19 2007, 05:47 PM) [snapback]296825[/snapback]

It was more fun when it was intertwined with Nuclear Iran.



Sex is everywhere!


unsure.gif

Nomarchy
Is There Progress and Direction in Evolution?
This is relevant to some of the discussion regarding what 'sexuality' is about and 'for' and what difference the 'effect' makes to the 'cause' of a trait.
Nomarchy
When and how does human "sexual orientation" develop?

Is 'sexual orientation' the result of a physical and psychical (affective/emotional and cognititive)developmental process?

Is it an inborn (genotypically), intra-uterine hormonally fixed and puberty-activated characteristic or trait?

Both?

Friend Judy
Bub:

I'm curious. Given the definition you use for "homosexual" (that is, doing the deed with person of same sex rather than merely being attracted to same sex but refraining from the actual deed)...

What did you mean when you asked about experiences or events that led to homosexuality? Were you speaking of actual seductions/experimentations common among adolescents of both sexes, or something else?
Nomarchy
Sexual and Affectional Orientation and Identity Scales

QUOTE
Sexual identity (how people think of themselves) sometimes has little to do with their sexual behavior. Three different people may have the same distribution of sexual behavior in the past and/or present, but have three different sexual identities: homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual. This may be confusing at first, but is important to remember. This point is often useful in helping people to understand that just because someone has a different sexual identity does not necessarily mean that that person's sexual behavior is different from their own. Conversely, the fact that someone else has the same sexual identity does not mean that that person's sexual behavior is the same as their own.

People who think of themselves as bisexual, heterosexual, or homosexual may find they are quite similar in some aspects and different in others. For example, in choosing people to spend time with in social activities, most women hang out with women and most men hang out with men. That is, both women and men show a social preference for members of the same sex. According to many national surveys, whether their sex is male or female, and whether their sexual identity is homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual, most people have an emotional preference for women as close friends. We may all be more alike than we think.

Klein's research and the experience of many people indicates that sexual identity can be fluid (at least for some people), and can change from one period of a person's life to another. A person's identity may move to a new position on the continuum; that is,

a heterosexual may change to a bisexual or homosexual identity;

a bisexual may change to a homosexual or heterosexual identity;

a homosexual may change to a bisexual or heterosexual identity.

Many people were sure that they would be, for instance, heterosexual all their lives, but discovered later that they no longer were. It therefore behooves one to treat others as one would like to be treated, regardless of one's current sexual identity, because one's sexual identity may change.

Both Kinsey's and Klein's work gives some evidence that older people are more likely to have been sexual with both sexes than are younger people. This contradicts conventional wisdom, which says that sexual experimentation is common among youths but uncommon among adults.

Despite the fact that someone may have had different sexual identities at different times, each sexual identity was appropriate and valid for that person in its time.

In some areas, the Lesbian and Gay male communities take the position that bisexuals are not welcome in the Lesbian and Gay communtites, that they do not exist, and/or that they are "traitors to the cause" and "sleeping with the enemy." This collection of attitudes is often termed "biphobia." It usually occurs with greater frequency and virulence in Lesbian communities, where it is associated with negative feelings about and political action against patriarchy and women's oppression. It is also clearly present in Gay male communities, often in the more subtle form of deprecation and ridicule of bisexual identity. In biphobic communities, an individual who might otherwise identify as bisexual may choose to suppress attractions to and activities with one gender or the other in order to identify as either heterosexual or homosexual. Alternatively, a person may switch back and forth, trying alternately to identify as homosexual or heterosexual.

Repub_Bub
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Apr 19 2007, 08:21 PM) [snapback]296905[/snapback]

Bub:

I'm curious. Given the definition you use for "homosexual" (that is, doing the deed with person of same sex rather than merely being attracted to same sex but refraining from the actual deed)...

What did you mean when you asked about experiences or events that led to homosexuality? Were you speaking of actual seductions/experimentations common among adolescents of both sexes, or something else?

I suppose you're talking about innocent.

Most of the homosexuals I have known experienced some sort of signifncantly negative event early in life and pursued increasingly bizarre behaviors styles to meet some perceived balanace. The end product could vary in extremes from the arrogant whose actions were vengeful to the submissive whose groveling actions could never be sufficient.

Subjective as it may be, I've never known a homosexual whose "orientation" was not a conscious desire to rationalize action in some way...and was merely curious if it had been Innocent's experience also.
SherryB


I think all this dissecting, analyzing, categorizing, moralising, takes all the fun out of it. It IS fun, you know. smile.gif
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(SherryB @ Apr 20 2007, 11:56 AM) [snapback]296994[/snapback]

I think all this dissecting, analyzing, categorizing, moralising, takes all the fun out of it. It IS fun, you know. smile.gif

cool.gif
beasty
QUOTE(SherryB @ Apr 20 2007, 09:56 AM) [snapback]296994[/snapback]

I think all this dissecting, analyzing, categorizing, moralising, takes all the fun out of it. It IS fun, you know. smile.gif


Maybe that part needs a separate thread....
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(SherryB @ Apr 20 2007, 09:56 AM) [snapback]296994[/snapback]

I think all this dissecting, analyzing, categorizing, moralising, takes all the fun out of it. It IS fun, you know. smile.gif

Never had the desire to experiment with the same sex so I'll just have to take your word on it. smile.gif
SherryB
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Apr 20 2007, 01:31 PM) [snapback]297004[/snapback]

Never had the desire to experiment with the same sex so I'll just have to take your word on it. smile.gif


I didn't read the looooong posting, is that what it's about? Well, nevermind. laugh.gif
Nomarchy
QUOTE(SherryB @ Apr 20 2007, 09:56 AM) [snapback]296994[/snapback]

I think all this dissecting, analyzing, categorizing, moralising, takes all the fun out of it. It IS fun, you know. smile.gif


Dissecting, analyzing, categorizing are one set of activities. Moralising is quite another.

Moralising, by the way, also adds to the 'fun' of some activities. The more something is 'not exactly proper' (by how much is a different question) the more it is likely to elicit an 'that's what makes it fun' response.

QUOTE(SherryB @ Apr 20 2007, 11:44 AM) [snapback]297020[/snapback]

I didn't read the looooong posting, is that what it's about? Well, nevermind. laugh.gif


Thanks for adding a couple posts to this new thread, rendering it more 'active' and earning it a 'red' color.
Friend Judy
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Apr 20 2007, 01:42 PM) [snapback]297022[/snapback]

Dissecting, analyzing, categorizing are one set of activities. Moralising is quite another.


This may be what Bub was trying to get at. I know my grandfather's molesting me left me with a sense that hetero sex is "dirty" and secretive and painful and frightening with most men, and seriously allergic to people of either sex who are into dominance games, i.e., dykes or fems.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Apr 20 2007, 02:05 PM) [snapback]297050[/snapback]

This may be what Bub was trying to get at. I know my grandfather's molesting me left me with a sense that hetero sex is "dirty" and secretive and painful and frightening with most men, and seriously allergic to people of either sex who are into dominance games, i.e., dykes or fems.


I had a girlfriend quite a few years ago who, having been 'seduced' when she was a late pre-teen, early teen by a male cousin, who was himself a teen and who was extremely 'gentle' (soft caresses, etc.), had to work at not 'revolting' against such tenderness and gentleness during love-making, etc.

OTOH, having myself then recently come out of a 4 and 1/2 year relationship during which I had 'allowed' myself to experience and enjoy the more, hmm, Klingon-type (those of us who watched and enjoyed Star Trek The Next Generation know what that entails) aspects of human sexuality only to find out, eventually, that it was only during the time that the woman in question was 'sick' with bulimia nervosa that she 'wanted' that sort of sexual activity (upon beginning her recovery, she eschewed any and all such Klingon-like sexual activities), I found myself reticent to 'go there' with the new girlfriend.

It's amazing that we managed, now that I think about it.
SherryB


Darn, now I just HAVE TO KNOW what on earth "Klingon" sex is. Sounds like fun, maybe. ?
Bart Katz
QUOTE(SherryB @ Apr 20 2007, 04:32 PM) [snapback]297063[/snapback]

Darn, now I just HAVE TO KNOW what on earth "Klingon" sex is. Sounds like fun, maybe. ?


Wanna have a little fun? biggrin.gif
Nomarchy
QUOTE(SherryB @ Apr 20 2007, 02:32 PM) [snapback]297063[/snapback]

Darn, now I just HAVE TO KNOW what on earth "Klingon" sex is. Sounds like fun, maybe. ?


QUOTE
Klingon mating rituals involve limited domination and combative attitudes. Par'machpu' (singular par'mach) are chosen mates for dedicated recreational sexual congress, equivalent to fiancées among Terran humans. Lieutenant Worf, when questioned in this area of Klingon lore, said (perhaps obliquely) that females roar loudly, hurl heavy objects, and claw at their desired mate – the males, conversely, read love poetry aloud and duck a lot.[4]

Klingon females reportedly search for their own partners, whom they deem worthy of copulation. Normally this has to be a male of great strength, valour or who at least possess great courage. The mating process can be a very wild and sometimes violent affair. When Worf was questioned by Guinan while still onboard the Enterprise-D, as to why he had not taken a par'mach, the Klingon said he was only chaste in concern for the "safety" of his fellow female crewmates. Guinan joked that many would find a male Klingon "tame," producing a rare laugh of pleasure from Worf.[5] Later aboard Station Deep Space Nine, Worf engaged in romance with Jadzia Dax, a Trill with deep connections to Klingon society. Their first night of relations produced a surprising number of contusions and broken limbs for Doctor Bashir to treat. As they arrived, the Klingon woman Lady Grilka was already in the infirmary with a very injured Quark in tow. Bashir stated that "he did not want to know what had happened."

There has never been a representation or reference to anything but heterosexual Klingons, in the Star Trek canon.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klingon_culture

Obviously, I didn't mean the reference to be taken 'literally'.
SherryB


I think I'm a little too old for all that action but I sure would like to WATCH!!! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(SherryB @ Apr 20 2007, 03:02 PM) [snapback]297075[/snapback]

I think I'm a little too old for all that action but I sure would like to WATCH!!! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Charlie Ray might have something on youtube...Inyer fer sure.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Apr 20 2007, 04:33 PM) [snapback]297115[/snapback]

Charlie Ray might have something on youtube...Inyer fer sure.


Why is everyone suddenly 'mum'? Can't we discuss these topics openly and extensively?
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Apr 20 2007, 04:38 PM) [snapback]297118[/snapback]

Why is everyone suddenly 'mum'? Can't we discuss these topics openly and extensively?

Waitin' for the link from Inyer...
inyerface
http://commentburner.com/attitude/att00048.gif
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Apr 20 2007, 04:40 PM) [snapback]297119[/snapback]

Waitin' for the link from Inyer...


Why? Why are petty 'rivalries' more important than a frank exchange of ideas and experiences?
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Apr 20 2007, 04:53 PM) [snapback]297127[/snapback]

Why? Why are petty 'rivalries' more important than a frank exchange of ideas and experiences?

They're not necessarily...my comment was intended to be humor neutral.

That is...not neutral on the funny/not funny scale but neutral on the lefty/right scale.

Although...one could make a case.....

But I digress....

What was the question?
beasty
QUOTE(SherryB @ Apr 20 2007, 02:32 PM) [snapback]297063[/snapback]

Darn, now I just HAVE TO KNOW what on earth "Klingon" sex is. Sounds like fun, maybe. ?


Finally the sex thread heats up. All the way to PG-13.

Anyone ready to try for NC-17?
Friend Judy
Maybe we should move it back to the Iran thread, where folks were more open.
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Apr 20 2007, 05:14 PM) [snapback]297138[/snapback]

Maybe we should move it back to the Iran thread, where folks were more open.

Actually Nomarchy did the decent thing by moving it here...perhaps we should approach this more seriously.
SherryB
When I was married to my first husband I hated sex. He was physically and verbally abusive and only had sex to relieve himself. I felt like a toilet. ugh.

THEN I met my second husband. smile.gif He really, really wanted me to have fun. Boy, DID WE. laugh.gif laugh.gif

One Valentines Day I didn't have any money to buy him a card or anything so I shaved my kootchie into a heart.

HE LOVED IT!!

It itched like hell growing back in. laugh.gif

I think watching porn with my hubby loosened me up. I saw that the things we did were not aberrations or naughty. I grew up in an extremely uptight household where sex was never mentioned except as something bad. My Mom didn't ever like sex, ever.

My husband thinks I'm just the greatest thing on two feet. That makes for a great sex life and a life long partnership.

I never had a bi-sexual relationship but I don't thinik it's a bad thing. Some women are so scarred from abuse they prefer to stay with their own kind. I don't blame them for that.

Is this the kind of post you were looking for?? Or is it WAAAY TOO MUCH INFORMATION?? Let me know. smile.gif
beasty
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Apr 20 2007, 05:18 PM) [snapback]297145[/snapback]

Actually Nomarchy did the decent thing by moving it here...perhaps we should approach this more seriously.


Oh well, back to G. dry.gif tongue.gif

Repub_Bub
QUOTE(SherryB @ Apr 20 2007, 05:19 PM) [snapback]297147[/snapback]

When I was married to my first husband I hated sex. He was physically and verbally abusive and only had sex to relieve himself. I felt like a toilet. ugh.

THEN I met my second husband. smile.gif He really, really wanted me to have fun. Boy, DID WE. laugh.gif laugh.gif

One Valentines Day I didn't have any money to buy him a card or anything so I shaved my kootchie into a heart.

HE LOVED IT!!

It itched like hell growing back in. laugh.gif

I think watching porn with my hubby loosened me up. I saw that the things we did were not aberrations or naughty. I grew up in an extremely uptight household where sex was never mentioned except as something bad. My Mom didn't ever like sex, ever.

My husband thinks I'm just the greatest thing on two feet. That makes for a great sex life and a life long partnership.

I never had a bi-sexual relationship but I don't thinik it's a bad thing. Some women are so scarred from abuse they prefer to stay with their own kind. I don't blame them for that.

Is this the kind of post you were looking for?? Or is it WAAAY TOO MUCH INFORMATION?? Let me know. smile.gif

We will need verification...got pics?
Nomarchy
QUOTE(SherryB @ Apr 20 2007, 05:19 PM) [snapback]297147[/snapback]

When I was married to my first husband I hated sex. He was physically and verbally abusive and only had sex to relieve himself. I felt like a toilet. ugh.

THEN I met my second husband. smile.gif He really, really wanted me to have fun. Boy, DID WE. laugh.gif laugh.gif

One Valentines Day I didn't have any money to buy him a card or anything so I shaved my kootchie into a heart.

HE LOVED IT!!

It itched like hell growing back in. laugh.gif

I think watching porn with my hubby loosened me up. I saw that the things we did were not aberrations or naughty. I grew up in an extremely uptight household where sex was never mentioned except as something bad. My Mom didn't ever like sex, ever.

My husband thinks I'm just the greatest thing on two feet. That makes for a great sex life and a life long partnership.

I never had a bi-sexual relationship but I don't thinik it's a bad thing. Some women are so scarred from abuse they prefer to stay with their own kind. I don't blame them for that.

Is this the kind of post you were looking for?? Or is it WAAAY TOO MUCH INFORMATION?? Let me know. smile.gif


Certainly not TMI.


QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Apr 20 2007, 05:24 PM) [snapback]297155[/snapback]

We will need verification...got pics?



tongue.gif biggrin.gif laugh.gif cool.gif
beasty
QUOTE(SherryB @ Apr 20 2007, 05:19 PM) [snapback]297147[/snapback]

When I was married to my first husband I hated sex. He was physically and verbally abusive and only had sex to relieve himself. I felt like a toilet. ugh.

THEN I met my second husband. smile.gif He really, really wanted me to have fun. Boy, DID WE. laugh.gif laugh.gif

One Valentines Day I didn't have any money to buy him a card or anything so I shaved my kootchie into a heart.

HE LOVED IT!!

It itched like hell growing back in. laugh.gif

I think watching porn with my hubby loosened me up. I saw that the things we did were not aberrations or naughty. I grew up in an extremely uptight household where sex was never mentioned except as something bad. My Mom didn't ever like sex, ever.

My husband thinks I'm just the greatest thing on two feet. That makes for a great sex life and a life long partnership.

I never had a bi-sexual relationship but I don't thinik it's a bad thing. Some women are so scarred from abuse they prefer to stay with their own kind. I don't blame them for that.

Is this the kind of post you were looking for?? Or is it WAAAY TOO MUCH INFORMATION?? Let me know. smile.gif


Not too much for me. laugh.gif My first wife liked shopping more than sex and almost bankrupted me. I'm much happier now living in sin. (but faithful sin, as she is mother to my last (better be) child)

A partnership is a good thing when life moves past JUST sex.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Apr 20 2007, 05:04 PM) [snapback]297134[/snapback]

They're not necessarily...my comment was intended to be humor neutral.

That is...not neutral on the funny/not funny scale but neutral on the lefty/right scale.

Although...one could make a case.....

But I digress....

What was the question?


Even I can figure out that the above was humorous and actually appreciate it.

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beasty
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Apr 20 2007, 05:24 PM) [snapback]297155[/snapback]

We will need verification...got pics?


You wish. She is a beautiful gal, but we don't want her hubby getting another ulcer.
SherryB
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Apr 20 2007, 08:24 PM) [snapback]297155[/snapback]

We will need verification...got pics?


I prefer to keep those private. smile.gif
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(SherryB @ Apr 20 2007, 05:28 PM) [snapback]297160[/snapback]

I prefer to keep those private. smile.gif

You're a lucky woman...but then, so is my wife.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Apr 20 2007, 05:29 PM) [snapback]297162[/snapback]

You're a lucky woman...but then, so is my wife.


Bub, you're in rare form today! Excellent.

SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(SherryB @ Apr 20 2007, 07:19 PM) [snapback]297147[/snapback]

When I was married to my first husband I hated sex. He was physically and verbally abusive and only had sex to relieve himself. I felt like a toilet. ugh.

THEN I met my second husband. smile.gif He really, really wanted me to have fun. Boy, DID WE. laugh.gif laugh.gif

One Valentines Day I didn't have any money to buy him a card or anything so I shaved my kootchie into a heart.

HE LOVED IT!!

It itched like hell growing back in. laugh.gif

I think watching porn with my hubby loosened me up. I saw that the things we did were not aberrations or naughty. I grew up in an extremely uptight household where sex was never mentioned except as something bad. My Mom didn't ever like sex, ever.

My husband thinks I'm just the greatest thing on two feet. That makes for a great sex life and a life long partnership.

I never had a bi-sexual relationship but I don't thinik it's a bad thing. Some women are so scarred from abuse they prefer to stay with their own kind. I don't blame them for that.

Is this the kind of post you were looking for?? Or is it WAAAY TOO MUCH INFORMATION?? Let me know. smile.gif

Great post.

Very cute valentine's story.

I never got one of those, but would have loved it. laugh.gif
Innocent
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Apr 19 2007, 07:55 PM) [snapback]296803[/snapback]

So, sexual orientation is NOT a moral matter, whatever its provenance and etiology?

I am not asking whether it SHOULD be a 'moral' matter, but whether it is EXPERIENCED as a moral matter, treated as a moral matter, etc.


No, mere sexual orientation isn't a moral matter, IMHO, since it is not chosen. Sexual behavior is open to moral argumentation - at least w/humans - since it is an act, and actions are chosen, and some actions can have moral components.

I don't experience sexual orientation as a moral matter any more than I experience brown eyes as a moral matter – for me it’s just something built into ones biology. I suppose if you wanted to form a moral argument against mere sexual orientation, or brown eyes, you would have to direct that moral argument against a deity, or other sentient being that may be responsible for guiding biological processes, if any exist.

Using an extreme example, even if pedophilia were someday upgraded to a sexual orientation, I would not consider it a moral matter. It’s acting on a pedophiliac orientation that would be open to moral argumentation.

smile.gif
Innocent
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Apr 19 2007, 08:58 PM) [snapback]296837[/snapback]
A more appropriate question would be: could one differentiate his sexual orientation from an equally substantial urge to steal?


Sure, I'll take what I can get. For me there is a vast difference between sexual orientation, and sexual behavior, just as there is a vast difference between the occasional urge to steal, and the act of stealing. Also, I wouldn't consider sexual orientation and the occassional urge to steal as "equally substantial." I find the former more fundamental than the latter.

QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Apr 19 2007, 08:58 PM) [snapback]296837[/snapback]
I merely compared my beliefs to traditional Methodist/Baptist so I'm at a bit of a loss to understand how you can label me so subjectively or how the above might be construed as an extreme form of religion.


It's your argument that I find extreme, and that argument stems specifically from a evangelical fundamentalist Protestant ideology best represented by conservative SBC Baptists. I know little of you personally, and you may or may not agree with evangelical fundamentalist Protestantism generally, but you do use some of their arguments, and it's these arguments I find extreme. To claim that one doesn't have a sexual orientation unless one engages in sexual behavior is an easy argument from this category to recognize. It's quite unique to their ideology.

QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Apr 19 2007, 08:58 PM) [snapback]296837[/snapback]
Surely you don't mean to suggest that since it ain't Catholic its gotta be a rogue?


Essentially, yes. There are two branches of Catholicism due to historical political circumstances, and I can see how it might be different to choose between them, but to claim to be a traditional Christian, but not be Catholic of some variety, is to misrepresent oneself from the perspective of a Catholic, IMHO, since Protestantism is a heretical doctrine. Now mind you, I have a great respect for the more liberal versions of Protestantism in that I feel that they best represent the life and philosophy of Jesus as a person, but your version of Protestantism is no more traditional Christianity than these liberal versions of Protestantism from the perspective of a Catholic. It's also important to note that I don't consider myself a Catholic any longer. I just recognize that Catholicism is the original and authentic Christianity. Of course, by the same token, I think of Catholicism as a heretical form of Judaism with more or less equal parts of Judaism, Paganism, & St. Paul. I’m sure I win no friend with this perspective. It’s just so ingrained from Catholic educational indoctrination. From the perspective of a Catholic, you follow a false religion that puts your salvation in jeopardy, and this wouldn’t qualify you as a “traditional Christian.”

smile.gif
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Innocent @ Apr 20 2007, 06:15 PM) [snapback]297182[/snapback]

No, mere sexual orientation isn't a moral matter, IMHO, since it is not chosen. Sexual behavior is open to moral argumentation - at least w/humans - since it is an act, and actions are chosen, and some actions can have moral components.

I don't experience sexual orientation as a moral matter any more than I experience brown eyes as a moral matter – for me it’s just something built into ones biology. I suppose if you wanted to form a moral argument against mere sexual orientation, or brown eyes, you would have to direct that moral argument against a deity, or other sentient being that may be responsible for guiding biological processes, if any exist.

Using an extreme example, even if pedophilia were someday upgraded to a sexual orientation, I would not consider it a moral matter. It’s acting on a pedophiliac orientation that would be open to moral argumentation.

smile.gif


I really can't fathom how WHAT the object of one's sexual desire is is not experienced as a moral matter. I mean, seriously, let's say one's is exclusively heterosexsexual in what you call 'biological' sexual orientation. Does that mean, for example, that one can experience sexual desire for ANY age-appropriate member of the opposite sex and still feel 'morally ok' about it?

And how can this alleged "like eye color" genetic fixing work in practice, how can it manifest itself given that most of the time we feel sexual 'urges'/attraction without having 'secure' knowledge of the sex of the object of our sexual impulse? Do people today, in the U.S., when they first feel 'sexual urges' NOT feel them as 'triggered' by cultural 'markers'? Aren't our gazes and urges 'trained' consciously and subconsciously towards "morally acceptable, permitted, etc." objects and part-objects? Are you claiming that there's a genetic predisposition to be sexually aroused by the sight of skirts or longer hair or 'female posture' in genetically heterosexual 15-year old males?

Subtly or explicitly, subconsciously and consciously we learn and 'train' our sexual impulse towards morally acceptable objects of sexual desire, IMHO.

We are not dogs. It's not the smell of the human equivalent of "a bitch in heat" that 'triggers' the imperious, never aim-inhibited or object-deviant sexual impulse in heterosexual males.

And, let's be honest. Brown-eyes do not have an 'object'. The sexual impulse does. If someone tells me that I 'really' have blue-eyes, it's not a moral matter. OTOH, if a man tells me that I've been making 'eyes' towards him, if he tells me that I've been sexually coming on to him, that he can tell I want him sexually, I take it as a moral matter. If I 'detect' in myself homosexual sexual urges towards a man, or part of a man, I don't treat such an occurence 'stoically'. (most of the time, the internal, sub- and pre-conscious sensors catches those, I would argue, and deflects them in aim-inhibited directions). Maybe others do. My 'capacity' to do/enact/performatively accomplish 'heterosexual male' AND to 'deep act' heterosexual male (and a moral one, at that; when I find myself leering at an age-inappropriate woman (i.e. a GIRL, or even a young adult woman), I FEEL a strong internal sanction, for example) is a matter of great moral concern for me.

Sexual urges, as all OTHER urges in 'man', in that they are not 'genetically' or 'hormonally' fixed but plastic and capable of variant satisfaction, are subject, par excellence to moral sanction and control.

There is moral sanctioning against heterosexual urges (not only behaviors) within and among homosexual men and women. I know it, you know it, the American people know it.

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

QUOTE(Innocent @ Apr 20 2007, 06:39 PM) [snapback]297187[/snapback]


Essentially, yes. There are two branches of Catholicism due to historical political circumstances, and I can see how it might be different to choose between them, but to claim to be a traditional Christian, but not be Catholic of some variety, is to misrepresent oneself from the perspective of a Catholic, IMHO, since Protestantism is a heretical doctrine. Now mind you, I have a great respect for the more liberal versions of Protestantism in that I feel that they best represent the life and philosophy of Jesus as a person, but your version of Protestantism is no more traditional Christianity than these liberal versions of Protestantism from the perspective of a Catholic. It's also important to note that I don't consider myself a Catholic any longer. I just recognize that Catholicism is the original and authentic Christianity. Of course, by the same token, I think of Catholicism as a heretical form of Judaism with more or less equal parts of Judaism, Paganism, & St. Paul. I’m sure I win no friend with this perspective. It’s just so ingrained from Catholic educational indoctrination. From the perspective of a Catholic, you follow a false religion that puts your salvation in jeopardy, and this wouldn’t qualify you as a “traditional Christian.”

smile.gif


This thread/topic has 'arrived'. It has now had its first 'off topic' conversation. I am tempted to say let's take this discussion over to the religion thread, but as the topic-starter, I think I'll take the extra traffic for quite a while, instead.

biggrin.gif
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