Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Gender Wars!!!!!
C-Span sucks community > non political topics > non-political
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19
lil bart
QUOTE(Ward @ Jan 2 2005, 09:33 PM)
A woman with kids is now the head of the family.  If underclass poor, she can call upon the resources of the State's safety net.  If working class or middle class, she can muster the police power of the State to extract payment from the hapless sperm doner turned paycheck.
[right][snapback]35107[/snapback][/right]


OK, gents, here is where we keep parting company. I see (or read of) most women who get child support getting less than half of what it costs to keep & raise the kids. How 'bout if the hapless womb donor trots off and leaves the man to support & raise the kids? Would you not think she owes a monthly contribution proportional to her paycheck and their (and the kids') former lifestyle?

I see women largely as financially disadvantaged, career disadvantaged (if she has kids) and personally overtaxed and consumed.

I have never known a single woman of the types that one would think, reading you guys, are the laughing-all-the-way-to-the-bank norm.
Human Ills
QUOTE(lil bart @ Jan 2 2005, 09:42 PM)
OK, gents, here is where we keep parting company. I see (or read of) most women who get child support getting less than half of what it costs to keep & raise the kids. How 'bout if the hapless womb donor trots off and leaves the man to support & raise the kids? Would you not think she owes a monthly contribution proportional to her paycheck and their (and the kids') former lifestyle?

I see women largely as financially disadvantaged, career disadvantaged (if she has kids) and personally overtaxed and consumed.

I have never known a single woman of the types that one would think, reading you guys, are the laughing-all-the-way-to-the-bank norm.
[right][snapback]35111[/snapback][/right]

I think she should pay for half of the kids groceries. Half of the kids health insurance. That sort of thing. As far as maintaining a former lifestyle? That's a slippery slope.
Ward
QUOTE(lil bart @ Jan 2 2005, 10:42 PM)
OK, gents, here is where we keep parting company. I see (or read of) most women who get child support getting less than half of what it costs to keep & raise the kids. How 'bout if the hapless womb donor trots off and leaves the man to support & raise the kids? Would you not think she owes a monthly contribution proportional to her paycheck and their (and the kids') former lifestyle?

I see women largely as financially disadvantaged, career disadvantaged (if she has kids) and personally overtaxed and consumed.

I have never known a single woman of the types that one would think, reading you guys, are the laughing-all-the-way-to-the-bank norm.
[right][snapback]35111[/snapback][/right]

Those statistics are as twisted as a Harkin Energy annual report. In the social class you are talking about, dads know better than to declare income on the books or be seen anywhere near the trailer park or housing project when social services is visiting. Women with minor children are, at worst, never homeless.

I don't buy the career disadvantage, either, at the working class level. A second generation high-school educated Latina around here is an easier hire (less threatening) than her brothers.
lil bart
QUOTE(Ward @ Jan 2 2005, 09:52 PM)
Those statistics are as twisted as a Harkin Energy annual report.  In the social class you are talking about, dads know better than to declare income on the books or be seen anywhere near the trailer park or housing project when social services is visiting.  Women with minor children are, at worst, never homeless.

I don't buy the career disadvantage, either, at the working class level.  A second generation high-school educated Latina around here is an easier hire (less threatening) than her brothers.
[right][snapback]35114[/snapback][/right]


What social class are you talking about? The upper 20 percent?

But what the hell, I didn't even know until today there was a Gender War, much less plural with several exclamation points. sad.gif
Ward
One of my favorite gender issue writers is Kathy Young.

QUOTE
Consider the widening reach and the unintended consequences of rape shield laws. These statutes, hailed as a way to keep victims from being smeared as skits in court, have sometimes kept juries from hearing evidence highly relevant to the guilt or innocence of the accused.

snip

And then there are the more obscure cases:

* In Wisconsin in 1993, 18-year-old Charles Steadman was convicted of raping his 22-year-old foster sister Jessica in a he said/she said case in which physical evidence of force was absent and the defendant claimed that the sex was consensual. What the jury didn't know was that when Jessica filed the complaint, she herself was facing criminal charges of having sex with minors. (She eventually received probation with mandatory psychiatric treatment.) Clearly, this gave her a reason to lie--particularly since she had had sexual relations with Steadman when he was underage. She might have thought that being a victim would improve her legal situation as a defendant, or she might have worried that if her encounter with Steadman became known, she would get in more trouble with the law. None of these possible motives could be introduced at Stead-man's trial, since Jessica's legal problems were related to her past sexual activities and hence inadmissible.

* In Oregon in 1989, James Anderson was convicted of raping "Donna R." while both were patients at a substance-abuse clinic. Anderson insisted that the sex was consensual and that Donna made up the charges in order to sue the clinic, which threw her out the morning after the alleged rape because she wouldn't sign up for long-term treatment. After initially claiming that she had tried to tell clinic staffers about the attack but was rebuffed, Donna reversed herself under cross-examination and said that she had not spoken about it to any of them because she was too embarrassed. In his summation, the prosecutor sneered that the defense expected a rape victim to "just walk up to one of the staff" and discuss "those most intimate details."

The jurors were never told that the day before, she had discussed equally "intimate details"--an alleged earlier rape and childhood sexual abuse--with one of the counselors. All records of this conversation were excluded from the trial under the rape shield law as pertaining to the accuser's sexual history; so was the fact that Donna had given several inconsistent accounts of her prior sexual victimization, Whether or not Donna was raped, the case seemed to leave ample room for reasonable doubt--particularly if one knew that Donna was not a reliable witness.


http://p201.ezboard.com/fcathyyoungfrm3.sh...topicID=5.topic
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(lil bart @ Jan 3 2005, 01:02 AM)
What social class are you talking about? The upper 20 percent?

But what the hell, I didn't even know until today there was a Gender War, much less plural with several exclamation points. sad.gif
[right][snapback]35117[/snapback][/right]

It's that California incubator again. Coming soon to life near you.
Human Ills
QUOTE(lil bart @ Jan 2 2005, 10:02 PM)
What social class are you talking about? The upper 20 percent?

But what the hell, I didn't even know until today there was a Gender War, much less plural with several exclamation points. sad.gif
[right][snapback]35117[/snapback][/right]

lol cheer up. I hold you in very high regard.

I figure soon the gals will stop by and tell us all what's wrong with men.
Ward
Aborting Equality
Men’s odd place in the abortion debate.

By Cathy Young

REASON April 2003


The 30th anniversary of Roe v. Wade in January evoked the usual rhetoric from the usual suspects: anti-abortion activists lamenting the slaughter of fetuses, feminists lamenting the threat to women’s rights, cautious language from the president about respect for life. But in all the commentary, little attention was paid to one crucial aspect of the issue: how the availability of abortion affects relations between men and women.

Pro-choicers see legal abortion as essential to gender equality, a guarantee that a woman can enjoy sexual freedom just like a man, without an unwanted pregnancy disrupting her career or education. As one Planned Parenthood pamphlet puts it, the basic issue is, "Should women make their own decisions about family, career and how to live their lives?" Men are rarely mentioned in pro-choice commentary, except to celebrate women’s freedom from male control over their reproductive lives -- though supportive partners of women who have abortions may sometimes be acknowledged as well.

On the pro-life side, abortion is depicted as the epitome of several purported feminist evils: selfish and unwomanly careerism, the decline of motherly qualities, and the liberation of women from "natural distinctions" between the sexes. At the same time, in keeping with the popular conservative theme that women are oppressed by liberation, anti-abortion activists have increasingly depicted women who have abortions as victims of a society that undervalues motherhood -- and of selfish, irresponsible boyfriends. Their rhetoric occasionally refers to bereaved fathers of aborted "babies" but more often invokes evil males for whom legal abortion makes it easy to seduce and abandon women.

A few maverick activists and commentators have argued that, in fact, the current legal situation puts men and women on a footing that is far from equal -- and is blatantly stacked in favor of women. Women have reproductive rights, and men have reproductive responsibilities.

If a woman gets pregnant and does not want to be a mother, she can end the pregnancy with or without her partner’s knowledge. If she wants to have the baby, she can force the father to pay child support -- so that, as lawyer Melanie McCulley pointed out in a 1998 article for The Journal of Law and Policy, he "does not have the luxury, after the fact of conception, to decide that he is not ready for fatherhood."

Once, biology colluded with male privilege to ensure that women were largely the ones who paid the price (often a heavy one) for illicit sex. Scientific and social progress has changed that: Even as reliable contraception and legal abortion allowed women to control reproduction, their ability to hold absentee fathers financially liable was enhanced by new methods of establishing paternity and by friendlier laws.

The issue of men’s reproductive rights occasionally surfaces in largely symbolic legal cases. In August 2002 a Philadelphia man, John Stachokus, obtained a temporary court injunction barring his former girlfriend Tanya Meyers from having an abortion -- much to the dismay of feminists and pro-choicers, who called the decision "an abuse of the legal system" and "a disgrace." A few days later, the judge dissolved the order. Had he not, it undoubtedly would have been reversed on emergency appeal, like a handful of other such court orders issued in the past 30 years.

Meanwhile, a few men fighting paternity suits have argued, so far unsuccessfully, that "forced parenthood" denies men equal protection. Peter Wallis, a New Mexico real estate broker, made headlines in 1998 when he sued ex-girlfriend Kellie Smith for "intentionally acquiring and misusing" his bodily fluids by getting pregnant against his wishes. The case was quickly tossed out. Even victories by men whose child support obligations resulted from deception -- when the woman lied about using birth control or even, in one bizarre case, used a syringe to inseminate herself with semen collected in a condom -- have been struck down on appeal.

Public opinion has been generally unsympathetic to men in such cases. Men who want to stop their partners from having abortions are seen as domineering patriarchs. Men who want to avoid paying child support are seen as irresponsible playboys. But it’s not always so simple.

Very few studies have looked at the men implicated in unwanted pregnancies. Drexel University sociologist Arthur Shostak and journalist Gary McLouth surveyed 1,000 men in abortion clinic waiting rooms and did some in-depth interviews for the 1984 book Men and Abortion: Lessons, Losses, and Love. They found that in most cases ending the pregnancy was a mutual decision, and only 5 percent of the men didn’t want the abortion -- though nearly half of the single and divorced men said that they had suggested getting married and having the baby.

As for the roughly 50 percent of men who don’t show up at the clinics, various estimates cited by Shostak and McLouth suggest that while some fit the stereotype of the feckless runaway male, a significant percentage oppose the abortion or are too upset about it to come along. As many as one in six men are never told about the pregnancy or the abortion.

Occasionally, wrenching personal stories appear in articles on the subject, such as one published a few years ago in the Bergen County, New Jersey, Record. One man profiled in the article said he was an emotional wreck for several years after his fiancée had two abortions without consulting him; the second time, she had assured him she wanted the child, then walked out on him after an argument and terminated the pregnancy.

And the flip side? A girl who gets pregnant in high school can decide that she’s not ready for motherhood. If her male classmate gets his partner pregnant, he can spend the next 21 years paying for an unwanted child, to the detriment of his education, his career, and his ability to have a family of his own. Yet if he complains about his predicament, the typical response is "You play, you pay" -- uncannily similar to the attitude of some abortion opponents who say that if women want to exercise "choice" they should just keep their legs together.

Given biological realities, it may be impossible to come up with a solution that wouldn’t be unfair to someone. The current situation is indeed inequitable to men. But allowing a paternal veto raises the disturbing specter of giving a man authority over a woman’s body. Allowing men to renounce paternity obligations means that a woman who wants to avoid unwanted parenthood has to undergo surgery or drug treatment while a man merely has to fill out some forms. One could argue that 21 years of child support is a greater burden than nine months of pregnancy, but bodily autonomy is generally seen as a more fundamental value than the financial kind.

One can argue for some legal reforms -- for instance, requiring that the prospective father be notified of an abortion (with exemptions for cases of domestic violence or rape), though any such measure would require the Supreme Court to reverse its 1992 Planned Parenthood v. Casey ruling. Limiting a mother’s ability to collect child support when the pregnancy results from deceit, or to sue for retroactive support after waiting years to let the man know he has fathered a child, should be feasible as well.

The most important change may be cultural. Abortion can create a radical imbalance rather than equality between the sexes, giving women unilateral power over a reproductive process that involves two people. Can men be expected to be full partners in child rearing but mere bystanders in pregnancy?
http://p201.ezboard.com/fcathyyoungfrm3.sh...opicID=22.topic
Ward
QUOTE
Dad Blood
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
November 2002

Dad Blood

If DNA tests prove that you’re not your children’s father, do you still owe child support?

By Cathy Young


Imagine raising a family for years, only to find out one day that your children are not really yours.

Imagine, after the divorce, being told by the courts that you have to continue paying financial support for these children.

Is this a Kafkaesque nightmare, or an unfortunate necessity to protect the children’s interests?

No one knows exactly how many men -- and children -- around the United States are confronting this question in their own lives, but the individual cases that have made it into the spotlight are wrenching.

One such story, told recently on NBC’s "Dateline," is that of Morgan Wise, an engineer in Big Springs, Texas. Wise’s fateful discovery, several years after his divorce, was prompted by the desire to help treat his 6-year-old son for cystic fibrosis: When he took a blood test to find out which cystic fibrosis gene he carried, it turned out that he didn’t have the gene at all. Both parents have to be carriers for a child to inherit the gene.

Subsequent genetic tests showed that of the four children born to Wise’s former wife during their 13-year marriage, only the eldest was his. "I never experienced a heart attack, and I can tell you, I had one that day," Wise told "Dateline." "I mean...a part of me died."

When Wise went to court asking to be relieved of the child support payments that consumed a third of his take-home pay, he was turned down. Wise was later barred from contact with all four children because he had discussed the issue of their parentage with them in violation of the judge’s order, but he still had to keep the checks coming. In January the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear Wise’s appeal.  more


Human Ills
As I stated before. DNA testing to establish paternity should be routine at every child's birth. That way there would be no hard feelings between mommy and not the daddy.
lil bart
QUOTE(Ward @ Jan 2 2005, 10:35 PM)
Aborting Equality
Men’s odd place in the abortion debate.

By Cathy Young

REASON April 2003
The 30th anniversary of Roe v. Wade in January evoked the usual rhetoric from the usual suspects: anti-abortion activists lamenting the slaughter of fetuses, feminists lamenting the threat to women’s rights, cautious language from the president about respect for life. But in all the commentary, little attention was paid to one crucial aspect of the issue: how the availability of abortion affects relations between men and women.

Pro-choicers see legal abortion as essential to gender equality, a guarantee that a woman can enjoy sexual freedom just like a man, without an unwanted pregnancy disrupting her career or education. As one Planned Parenthood pamphlet puts it, the basic issue is, "Should women make their own decisions about family, career and how to live their lives?" Men are rarely mentioned in pro-choice commentary, except to celebrate women’s freedom from male control over their reproductive lives -- though supportive partners of women who have abortions may sometimes be acknowledged as well.

On the pro-life side, abortion is depicted as the epitome of several purported feminist evils: selfish and unwomanly careerism, the decline of motherly qualities, and the liberation of women from "natural distinctions" between the sexes. At the same time, in keeping with the popular conservative theme that women are oppressed by liberation, anti-abortion activists have increasingly depicted women who have abortions as victims of a society that undervalues motherhood -- and of selfish, irresponsible boyfriends. Their rhetoric occasionally refers to bereaved fathers of aborted "babies" but more often invokes evil males for whom legal abortion makes it easy to seduce and abandon women.

A few maverick activists and commentators have argued that, in fact, the current legal situation puts men and women on a footing that is far from equal -- and is blatantly stacked in favor of women. Women have reproductive rights, and men have reproductive responsibilities.

If a woman gets pregnant and does not want to be a mother, she can end the pregnancy with or without her partner’s knowledge. If she wants to have the baby, she can force the father to pay child support -- so that, as lawyer Melanie McCulley pointed out in a 1998 article for The Journal of Law and Policy, he "does not have the luxury, after the fact of conception, to decide that he is not ready for fatherhood."

Once, biology colluded with male privilege to ensure that women were largely the ones who paid the price (often a heavy one) for illicit sex. Scientific and social progress has changed that: Even as reliable contraception and legal abortion allowed women to control reproduction, their ability to hold absentee fathers financially liable was enhanced by new methods of establishing paternity and by friendlier laws.

The issue of men’s reproductive rights occasionally surfaces in largely symbolic legal cases. In August 2002 a Philadelphia man, John Stachokus, obtained a temporary court injunction barring his former girlfriend Tanya Meyers from having an abortion -- much to the dismay of feminists and pro-choicers, who called the decision "an abuse of the legal system" and "a disgrace." A few days later, the judge dissolved the order. Had he not, it undoubtedly would have been reversed on emergency appeal, like a handful of other such court orders issued in the past 30 years.

Meanwhile, a few men fighting paternity suits have argued, so far unsuccessfully, that "forced parenthood" denies men equal protection. Peter Wallis, a New Mexico real estate broker, made headlines in 1998 when he sued ex-girlfriend Kellie Smith for "intentionally acquiring and misusing" his bodily fluids by getting pregnant against his wishes. The case was quickly tossed out. Even victories by men whose child support obligations resulted from deception -- when the woman lied about using birth control or even, in one bizarre case, used a syringe to inseminate herself with semen collected in a condom -- have been struck down on appeal.

Public opinion has been generally unsympathetic to men in such cases. Men who want to stop their partners from having abortions are seen as domineering patriarchs. Men who want to avoid paying child support are seen as irresponsible playboys. But it’s not always so simple.

Very few studies have looked at the men implicated in unwanted pregnancies. Drexel University sociologist Arthur Shostak and journalist Gary McLouth surveyed 1,000 men in abortion clinic waiting rooms and did some in-depth interviews for the 1984 book Men and Abortion: Lessons, Losses, and Love. They found that in most cases ending the pregnancy was a mutual decision, and only 5 percent of the men didn’t want the abortion -- though nearly half of the single and divorced men said that they had suggested getting married and having the baby.

As for the roughly 50 percent of men who don’t show up at the clinics, various estimates cited by Shostak and McLouth suggest that while some fit the stereotype of the feckless runaway male, a significant percentage oppose the abortion or are too upset about it to come along. As many as one in six men are never told about the pregnancy or the abortion.

Occasionally, wrenching personal stories appear in articles on the subject, such as one published a few years ago in the Bergen County, New Jersey, Record. One man profiled in the article said he was an emotional wreck for several years after his fiancée had two abortions without consulting him; the second time, she had assured him she wanted the child, then walked out on him after an argument and terminated the pregnancy.

And the flip side? A girl who gets pregnant in high school can decide that she’s not ready for motherhood. If her male classmate gets his partner pregnant, he can spend the next 21 years paying for an unwanted child, to the detriment of his education, his career, and his ability to have a family of his own. Yet if he complains about his predicament, the typical response is "You play, you pay" -- uncannily similar to the attitude of some abortion opponents who say that if women want to exercise "choice" they should just keep their legs together.

Given biological realities, it may be impossible to come up with a solution that wouldn’t be unfair to someone. The current situation is indeed inequitable to men. But allowing a paternal veto raises the disturbing specter of giving a man authority over a woman’s body. Allowing men to renounce paternity obligations means that a woman who wants to avoid unwanted parenthood has to undergo surgery or drug treatment while a man merely has to fill out some forms. One could argue that 21 years of child support is a greater burden than nine months of pregnancy, but bodily autonomy is generally seen as a more fundamental value than the financial kind.

One can argue for some legal reforms -- for instance, requiring that the prospective father be notified of an abortion (with exemptions for cases of domestic violence or rape), though any such measure would require the Supreme Court to reverse its 1992 Planned Parenthood v. Casey ruling. Limiting a mother’s ability to collect child support when the pregnancy results from deceit, or to sue for retroactive support after waiting years to let the man know he has fathered a child, should be feasible as well.

The most important change may be cultural. Abortion can create a radical imbalance rather than equality between the sexes, giving women unilateral power over a reproductive process that involves two people. Can men be expected to be full partners in child rearing but mere bystanders in pregnancy?
http://p201.ezboard.com/fcathyyoungfrm3.sh...opicID=22.topic
[right][snapback]35123[/snapback][/right]


Good piece. Full and fair. I still think that biology disallows "equality." Equal protection requires treating like as like, and different in proportion to differences. If you want freedom for men specifically from child support obligations for any women who, in a legal system that allows abortion, have not obtained contractual agreement aforehand for such support, are you prepared to assume generally the support for all the babies whose fathers will be able to absent it?

One might be better not to view it as the mother forcing the father to pay child support, but rather as either the mother or the state doing it in the child's interest. That's an interest in which I would argue that the minor deserves protection from either of their irresponsible preferences. Elsewise the burden falls back on society writ large. I think "we" have the right to trace it back to and enforce it upon the direct progenitors. Codified in law, this concept as most makes best sense when codified in culture.

The impetus in much of this new "gender war" debate (of which unmarried couples are a part, and married and divorcing couples another it would seem) is to reset the parameters of these culture codes. I rarely if ever find that the anger extremes reset those points well.
lil bart
QUOTE(Human Ills @ Jan 3 2005, 03:57 AM)
As I stated before. DNA testing to establish paternity should be routine at every child's birth. That way there would be no hard feelings between mommy and not the daddy.
[right][snapback]35128[/snapback][/right]


Morning, Millness. How's yer love life? user posted image
Ward
QUOTE(lil bart @ Jan 3 2005, 11:42 AM)
(snipped) I still think that biology disallows "equality." Equal protection requires treating like as like, and different in proportion to differences.

One might be better not to view it as the mother forcing the father to pay child support, but rather as either the mother or the state doing it in the child's interest.
[right][snapback]35168[/snapback][/right]

Yes, the gestation process is unique. There is no other situation like it. Which is why I don't consider individual bodily integrity of the woman to be a grotesque right, but rather a practical default. You prefer a political compromise entailing trimesters and socially acceptable exclusions. I'm surprised you regard that compromise formula as having moral and practical domain over the bodily integrity of individual pregnant women. Not to mention domain over sperm-doner's interests, which are superceded (hell, totally ingnored) by both the woman and formulaic state compromise.

It's not so much about "forcing" child support. Its about power and rights within the family structure. From conception to age 18, men are well advised to NOT invest any emotional interest in their offspring. At any time, mom can toss your sorry dad-ass out of the house and out of the family, on a whim.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(lil bart @ Jan 2 2005, 11:25 PM)
That "at street level, women are today's aristocracy?" I don't really know what that means.
[right][snapback]35104[/snapback][/right]


dada daa on the street where you live da dada daaaaaa smile.gif
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Ward @ Jan 3 2005, 02:13 PM)
Yes, the gestation process is unique.  There is no other situation like it.  Which is why I don't consider individual bodily integrity of the woman to be a grotesque right, but rather a practical default.  You prefer a political compromise entailing trimesters and socially acceptable exclusions.  I'm surprised you regard that compromise formula as having moral and practical domain over the bodily integrity of individual pregnant women.  Not to mention domain over sperm-doner's interests, which are superceded (hell, totally ingnored) by both the woman and formulaic state compromise.

It's not so much about "forcing" child support.  Its about power and rights within the family structure.  From conception to age 18, men are well advised to NOT invest any emotional interest in their offspring.  At any time, mom can toss your sorry dad-ass out of the house and out of the family, on a whim.
[right][snapback]35177[/snapback][/right]


It’s the laws and customs governing divorce that you would need to change to fix that. Maybe get rid of no fault divorce, and favor parental custody for the “innocent” spouse (if any).
lil bart
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Jan 3 2005, 11:39 AM)
dada daa on the street where you live da dada daaaaaa smile.gif
[right][snapback]35178[/snapback][/right]


Love that song.

That's one that will be on my swing collections on the stereo when I throw these godforsaken tv sets out. smile.gif
lil bart
QUOTE(Ward @ Jan 3 2005, 11:13 AM)
Yes, the gestation process is unique.  There is no other situation like it.  Which is why I don't consider individual bodily integrity of the woman to be a grotesque right, but rather a practical default.  You prefer a political compromise entailing trimesters and socially acceptable exclusions.  I'm surprised you regard that compromise formula as having moral and practical domain over the bodily integrity of individual pregnant women.  Not to mention domain over sperm-doner's interests, which are superceded (hell, totally ingnored) by both the woman and formulaic state compromise.

It's not so much about "forcing" child support.  Its about power and rights within the family structure.  From conception to age 18, men are well advised to NOT invest any emotional interest in their offspring.  At any time, mom can toss your sorry dad-ass out of the house and out of the family, on a whim.
[right][snapback]35177[/snapback][/right]


I'm not bringing the abortion discussion here. There's a whole forum for it and it has been interjected into enough already, or more than.


Briefly: bullshit.

And we are beyond the family structure and all this bullshit and power plays here; we are into strictly protection and assurance of child welfare, or some effort in that direction in the form of requisite financial support.
lil bart
The way some of you carry on I hope you never have sex or babies, and you may as well be not just pro-abortion but pro-infanticide at whatever level & stage.

I think I've had enough of this forum for awhile.

Gender WARS .... yeah, like we needed a farging 'nother one.
Ward
QUOTE(lil bart @ Jan 3 2005, 01:08 PM)
The way some of you carry on I hope you never have sex or babies, and you may as well be not just pro-abortion but pro-infanticide at whatever level & stage.
[right][snapback]35185[/snapback][/right]

cute
Human Ills
QUOTE(lil bart @ Jan 3 2005, 10:44 AM)
Morning, Millness. How's yer love life? user posted image
[right][snapback]35169[/snapback][/right]

Morning, barta. Unaccompanied. ph34r.gif
Human Ills
QUOTE(lil bart @ Jan 3 2005, 12:07 PM)
I'm not bringing the abortion discussion here. There's a whole forum for it and it has been interjected into enough already, or more than.


Briefly: bullshit.

And we are beyond the family structure and all this bullshit and power plays here; we are into strictly protection and assurance of child welfare, or some effort in that direction in the form of requisite financial support.

[right][snapback]35184[/snapback][/right]

You don't think behaviour might be modified, just a lil' bit? You don't think some behaviours need modification, just a lil bit?
Human Ills
QUOTE(lil bart @ Jan 3 2005, 12:08 PM)
The way some of you carry on I hope you never have sex or babies, and you may as well be not just pro-abortion but pro-infanticide at whatever level & stage.

I think I've had enough of this forum for awhile.

Gender WARS .... yeah, like we needed a farging 'nother one.
[right][snapback]35185[/snapback][/right]

More guys think this way than admit, or that you care to admit to yourself. We have been conditioned to go along to get some. And what are the fellas already in the fix going to do, all they can do, grin and bear it. Most guys don't catch on until it's really too late, or they think the sex and companionship is worth the price. I think I'm expressing something that needs to be expressed.
Will be happy to chat more about it upon your return.
Ward
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Jan 3 2005, 12:48 PM)
It’s the laws and customs governing divorce that you would need to change to fix that.  Maybe get rid of no fault divorce, and favor parental custody for the “innocent” spouse (if any).
[right][snapback]35180[/snapback][/right]

I'm not sure if there is any solution, Space. Prior to no-fault divorce, testimony in divorce court was a prevarication fest with advantage to the best liar.

Marriage is no longer a binding contract. The oath is not backed up by custom or law anymore.
Ward
QUOTE(Human Ills @ Jan 3 2005, 02:50 PM)
More guys think this way than admit, or that you care to admit to yourself. We have been conditioned to go along to get some. And what are the fellas already in the fix going to do, all they can do, grin and bear it. Most guys don't catch on until it's really too late, or they think the sex and companionship is worth the price. I think I'm expressing something that needs to be expressed.
Will be happy to chat more about it upon your return.
[right][snapback]35195[/snapback][/right]

Do you really see guys your age catching on in significant numbers?

I've heard younger men in Italy have largely given up on the family thing.
Human Ills
QUOTE(Ward @ Jan 3 2005, 02:03 PM)
Do you really see guys your age catching on in significant numbers? 

I've heard younger men in Italy have largely given up on the family thing.
[right][snapback]35199[/snapback][/right]

I think my point was we catch on too late. For awhile marriage was on the decline, but I think it's picking up slightly. As far as guys my age..how young do you think I am?
Human Ills
QUOTE(Ward @ Jan 3 2005, 01:58 PM)
I'm not sure if there is any solution, Space.  Prior to no-fault divorce, testimony in divorce court was a prevarication fest with advantage to the best liar.

Marriage is no longer a binding contract.  The oath is not backed up by custom or law anymore.
[right][snapback]35196[/snapback][/right]

I think the women would argue, and rightly so, that marriage was never really a binding contract. Only it used to be the men that would be able to wiggle away scot-free. I'm just wanting a balance, and I don't see us arriving at that point without some major public discourse, some jock-burning if you will. biggrin.gif
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Human Ills @ Jan 3 2005, 04:50 PM)
More guys think this way than admit, or that you care to admit to yourself. We have been conditioned to go along to get some. And what are the fellas already in the fix going to do, all they can do, grin and bear it. Most guys don't catch on until it's really too late, or they think the sex and companionship is worth the price. I think I'm expressing something that needs to be expressed.
Will be happy to chat more about it upon your return.
[right][snapback]35195[/snapback][/right]

If you want lil bart back, you might be wise to posit the existence of some good women who do not manipulate family law to the disadvantage of their spouse. There are good women out there, I know for a fact.


Still, with the divorce rate at 50%, and the cost of a mistake 30% of your income, the "expected costs of marriage" can look pretty high to a rational bachelor.
Human Ills
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Jan 3 2005, 02:15 PM)
If you want lil bart back, you might be wise to posit the existence of some good women who do not manipulate family law to the disadvantage of their spouse. There are good women out there, I know for a fact.
[right][snapback]35203[/snapback][/right]

That's not what this thread is about. That's like saying during the feminist battles before us, that if you wanted a reasonable man to return to the discussion, then you should make it plain that you think there are good men out there.
I know there are good women out there as well. They're just all spoken for. tongue.gif
And I know she's taking it a little personal, but I'm not making it personal. And I've said more than once that I think she's a great person.
I've just got something on my chest that bugs me every time I think of it, and I see no reason not to change the way we as a society deal with it.
Ward
QUOTE(Human Ills @ Jan 3 2005, 03:06 PM)
I think my point was we catch on too late. For awhile marriage was on the decline, but I think it's picking up slightly. As far as guys my age..how young do you think I am?
[right][snapback]35200[/snapback][/right]

Early to mid thirties.
Human Ills
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Jan 3 2005, 02:15 PM)
Still, with the divorce rate at 50%, and the cost of a mistake 30% of your income, the "expected costs of marriage" can look pretty high to a rational bachelor.
[right][snapback]35203[/snapback][/right]

Ding. Ding. Ding. Ding. I'm sure that the ones that are worth the risk are snatched up by now, Space. I've a better shot at reshaping society. laugh.gif
Human Ills
QUOTE(Ward @ Jan 3 2005, 02:22 PM)
Early to mid thirties.
[right][snapback]35205[/snapback][/right]

I assumed we were around the same age. You make it sound young. Mid 30's is old to be single. I think.
Ward
QUOTE(Human Ills @ Jan 3 2005, 03:26 PM)
I assumed we were around the same age. You make it sound young. Mid 30's is old to be single. I think.
[right][snapback]35207[/snapback][/right]

I'm old enough to be your DNA doner.

Mid 30's is getting close to decision time.

http://www.eharmony.com/core/eharmony?cmd=ghome&ref=301

Get to work. smile.gif
Human Ills
QUOTE(Ward @ Jan 3 2005, 03:16 PM)
I'm old enough to be your DNA doner. 

Mid 30's is getting close to decision time.

http://www.eharmony.com/core/eharmony?cmd=ghome&ref=301

Get to work.  smile.gif
[right][snapback]35232[/snapback][/right]

I have a few things I want to get done to the pad before I bring a woman home...Remodel the kitchen, bathrooms, tile the floors, aquariums and fountains. You know, the usual things. cool.gif

biggrin.gif
Human Ills
Q Do men really fake orgasms?
A Yes. Especially as we get older, if the sex is particularly bad or we realize we've made some sort of mistake, we sometimes fake it and try to salvage a good night's rest.
Human Ills
Q When will men ever grow up and mature?

A Funny you should ask. I just got home from the Boy's Club™ meeting, and we finally had a vote on this issue. It had been tabled for discussion for quite a while, and it was hard to pass because on such serious issues, we needed more than just a simple majority. Anyhow, it was finally passed; and our final decision is "TOMORROW." Collectively, we'll all grow up, be mature, and act responsibly t_o_m_o_r_r_o_w. Tonight we're hanging out with the guys and going out drinking. And no, you can't come along.
Human Ills
Q Why won't men ever stop to ask for directions?

A Where do you think we would be today if Christopher Columbus had stopped and asked for directions? While the old frontier days are over, this evolutionarily honed genetic instinct to explore doesn't simply go away. Men are still very much true to their nomadic roots. Especially armed with the modern knowledge that the Earth is round, no self-respecting man will ever stop to ask for directions again either!
Human Ills
QWhy can't men ever give a straight answer to a simple question?
AFrankly, your questions aren't all that simple. In general, when a woman asks a question, she has a correct answer in mind. We men are well aware of this. Therefore, it may take us a while to come up with the right answer. If a question is particularly tough, we may not answer at all.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Human Ills @ Jan 3 2005, 06:36 PM)
Q Why won't men ever stop to ask for directions?

A Where do you think we would be today if Christopher Columbus had stopped and asked for directions? While the old frontier days are over, this evolutionarily honed genetic instinct to explore doesn't simply go away. Men are still very much true to their nomadic roots. Especially armed with the modern knowledge that the Earth is round, no self-respecting man will ever stop to ask for directions again either!
[right][snapback]35251[/snapback][/right]


I am a self-respecting man, and I have stopped and asked for directions, whether on the road or in a store, while not being the driver or 'driver' (e.g. not the primary shopper) and while being the driver or 'driver'. I find it silly to the point of sheer stupidity not to avail myself of free sources of information. "Competently accomplishing my mission" is more important an aspect of my adult masculinity than some "shot in the dark" discovery or nomadic instinct. Have you been clothes shopping (for her) with a significant other, and she refuses to ask attendants where x.y.z is/are located? It boggles the mind.
Human Ills
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Jan 3 2005, 05:46 PM)
I am a self-respecting man, and I have stopped and asked for directions, whether on the road or in a store, while not being the driver or 'driver' (e.g. not the primary shopper) and while being the driver or 'driver'. I find it silly to the point of sheer stupidity not to avail myself of free sources of information. "Competently accomplishing my mission" is more important an aspect of my adult masculinity than some "shot in the dark" discovery or nomadic instinct. Have you been clothes shopping (for her) with a significant other, and she refuses to ask attendants where x.y.z is/are located? It boggles the mind.
[right][snapback]35257[/snapback][/right]

I have a road atlas for california that I carry in my car, and one at home. Yes I ask for directions. Before I embark on my trip. Via mapquest yahoomaps what have you.
I really don't know what all the fuss is about. Only to say that I thought the line about the earth being round to be exceedingly clevah. OK maybe not exceedingly.

Wait, I just thought of something. What is stopping wifey from finding out the proper route and pointing out with authority the minute the guydar flickers?

Now that would be helpful. If she could contain her disdain that is. wink.gif


Oh, and shopping? Noma, if she went straight to the X.Y.Z. aisle, she might miss out on G.
Q and ∞.
Human Ills
Besides, shopping's fun. I think I'll try it with money some day.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Human Ills @ Jan 3 2005, 06:51 PM)
I have a road atlas for california that I carry in my car, and one at home. Yes I ask for directions. Before I embark on my trip. Via mapquest yahoomaps what have you.
I really don't know what all the fuss is about. Only to say that I thought the line about the earth being round to be exceedingly clevah. OK maybe not exceedingly.

Wait, I just thought of something. What is stopping wifey from finding out the proper route and pointing out with authority the minute the guydar flickers?

Now that would be helpful. If she could contain her disdain that is. wink.gif
Oh, and shopping? Noma, if she went straight to the X.Y.Z. aisle, she might miss out on G.
Q and ∞.
[right][snapback]35261[/snapback][/right]


Agreed. I think it's also how "domains" and "activities" are constructed. A man may find needlework "girly" if done indoors on doylees (spelling?) but very manly when it's done on e.g. sails.

I think many women think of shopping as their domain and do not want to be seen as admitting that they really don't know their way around e.g. a department store.
Art.
Department stores don't like to make it too easy either. They want to keep you in there a while.
Human Ills
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Jan 3 2005, 06:03 PM)
Agreed. I think it's also how "domains" and "activities" are constructed. A man may find needlework "girly" if done indoors on doylees (spelling?) but very manly when it's done on e.g. sails.

I think many women think of shopping as their domain and do not want to be seen as admitting that they really don't know their way around e.g. a department store.
[right][snapback]35266[/snapback][/right]

LMAO. So different and yet so alike. Each criticizing the other for insecurities they harbour.
Human Ills
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Jan 3 2005, 06:07 PM)
Department stores don't like to make it too easy either. They want to keep you in there a while.
[right][snapback]35267[/snapback][/right]

I wish the same couldn't be said for our road system. blink.gif
I thought Phoenix was well laid out when I was living there, but I wasn't driving much.
Human Ills
A man goes to a half-price sale at a women's wear store, thinking to buy his wife a gift. The sale is a madhouse, and the man's every attempt to get near a rack of clothes is frustrated by several women pushing in front of him. After a half an hour of trying to excuse himself and delicately work his way through the throngs of women, he squares his shoulders and begins elbowing his way toward the most promising merchandise. One woman, after being roughly shoved aside, snaps, "Why don't you act like a gentleman?"

"I've been acting like a gentleman for half an hour." he retorts, "Now I'm acting like a lady."
Human Ills
When I was 14, I hoped that one day I would have a girlfriend.

When I was 16 I got a girlfriend, but there was no passion.
So I decided I needed a passionate girl with a zest for life.

In college I dated a passionate girl, but she was too emotional.
Everything was an emergency; she was a drama queen, cried all the time and threatened suicide.
So I decided I needed a girl with some stability.

When I was 25 I found a very stable girl but she was boring.
She was totally predictable and never got excited about anything.
Life became so dull that I decided I needed a girl with some excitement.

When I was 28 I found an exciting girl, but I couldn't keep up with her.
She rushed from one thing to another, never settling on anything.
She did mad impetuous things and flirted with everyone she met.
She made me miserable as often as happy.
She was great fun initially and very energetic, but directionless.
So I decided to find a girl with some ambition.

When I turned 31, I found a smart ambitious girl with her feet planted firmly on the ground and married her.
She was so ambitious that she divorced me and took everything I owned.

Now I'm 40 and all I want is a girl with big biggrin.gif

Human Ills
How can you tell when a man is well-hung?

When you can just barely slip your finger in between his neck and the noose.
Human Ills
What do you call a handcuffed man?

Trustworthy.

Human Ills
What do you call the useless piece of skin on the end of a man's penis?

His body.
Art.
QUOTE(Human Ills @ Jan 3 2005, 07:10 PM)
I wish the same couldn't be said for our road system. blink.gif
I thought Phoenix was well laid out when I was living there, but I wasn't driving much.
[right][snapback]35271[/snapback][/right]


Tucson is about the same, but no freeway through town. A square grid is best, but some idiot road people keep throwing in curves and bottlenecks.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2010 Invision Power Services, Inc.