Dear Kindly Sargeant Krupke, ya gotta understand .....

Heck ya, what about the kid's own upbringing?

At any rate, I am of course on board with what Nomarchy says: all appropriate measures against the kid-turned-criminal, and a closer, longer look elsewhere for all the rest of us at what is going so horribly wrong.

I ain't too sure about Bee and ole Hu, from reading their posts.

If there was one kid or a couple who were brutally targetting this kid and then he snapped -- at them -- your justification defense, in whole or part, might be better taken (by me). As it is, there may be a pathology in the socialization structure, but the mass murderer gets no effective mitigation there beyond his age, and that's another kettle of messy fish.

They are responsible for the bullying. Not getting killed.

The kid might say they asked for it. I won't. There is no excuse for that kind of extreme action.

Here is another question. (or a monkey wrench in the gears) Was the kid into first-person shooter video games? I have to wonder these days. Virtual combat isn't real but it can train a person.

I don't know why you would absolve him if his tormentors were abberations but condemn him if his tormentors were the norm in society.

How about this then. How about we go out and round up every bully and have them pay restitution to every bullied person for the losses they have suffered not only in quality of life but opportunities in higher education and employment?

Victims of bullying have their life cut short in a way as well. And this seems totally lost on people.
I'm sick of it. And if given the chance in a court, I would send a message.

I don't think she would. In short, if you shoot your tormentors, even if it's not in the heat of the moment, there's room for 'mitigating circumstances'. If you go on a wild shooting rampage and you shoot innocent people in the process, that's not kosher, and you should get the appropriate punishment.

That said, let's look at the precipitating and deeper causes, and see if we can do something about them pre-emptively. The less intrusive the better, in re 'solutions'.

I don't think that's quite what she said either. I think my take was more accurate save for the black/white in my absolve/condemn.

I am on board with that . . .

Then you need to read better.

You are trying to blow smoke.

Then again easy access to guns is another issue yet untouched. Want to play that one? How many could he have killed w/ a set of steak knives?

Is that the real issue you're blowing smoke about?

No it isn't totally lost on me. I understand. It's the level of response.


I don't like bullies. Never have, never will.

Kids shooting kids. I'm surprised bullying hasn't went down. You'd think the bullies in the schools would have figured that whacko crazy gun thing out by now.

Cops aren't supposed to have guns?

BTW: Your "so many signs" is such a lame farqing thing. Even Simple Simon could see the signs, after the fact. Don't they always?

You go watch some kids, and when you accurately predict one that's going to take off and kill a bunch of people, get back to me. Until then, have fun with your amateur psych shrink delusions.

I'm surprised there isn't a shooting every week in 50 schools, if it's kids reacting to bullies that causes it all.

There will always be screwed up people that do unfathomable things. We shouldn't encourage it by breeding them, though. The problem will be around as long as people countenance bullies.

I haven't read smoke. Access to the guns is a legitimate issue. I'm for responsible gun ownership, not the wild west.

If a kid is a goth or nazi type, dwells on the macabre, ect, and lives with me? I'm gonna install a gun safe. If there were a kid I would have a safe. There are also other new gagets that allow fairly quick access to a firearm in an emergency.

What say you barto? What's the newest quick access gun safe/lock up? You'd know more than me.

I'm also surprised it doesn't happen more often.

Add in people that FEEL they are bullied even when maybe they aren't much or are just ignored. A single overt act may just be the trigger for some kid that feels more ignored than abused.

As much as I hate true bullies, some kids may think everything and anything is bullying.

maybe a little moisterizer.

I use GunVault cases that have the memory pad on top and the spring loaded front opening door. They are also bolted down to their locations. There are higher tech ones, but these are pretty safe and reliable. Change the batteries once a year.

Bee's "ideal man".

I think it's because most kids don't go stark raving bug fork crazy from it.

Consider all the damage bullies are doing without having weapons then tell me again with a straight face that access to guns is the problem.

That's a point. Being ignored is also painful. But one doesn't usually come without the other. How about being ignored except when you're being bullied.

That's a fun little life, right?

That's sort of what I'm saying. Somebody who is mostly ignored, but maybe once or twice bullied by the one or two class bullies every school has. A good way to be set on a path of revenge.

For most of my public school life I was smaller than everyone else(because I started early) and know a bit about bullying. But still it's no excuse for attacking everyone, since most people aren't bullying, merely living their own lives. Yet they still may get shot if some kid goes off.

I can only go by my own experience and what I see and hear. I hate bullies, but to some extent bullying is in the eye of the beholder.

I don't know why Nomarchy thinks you are making the same argument he is.

No, I do not think your take is accurate. In your take, most kids are bullies and a precious few ought lay waste to lots of them throughout the land.

Sidepoint: take note that many people in many countries find the US a bully.

have to look it up. Sounds like a hand print.



I did not say access to guns was THE problem. I said access to guns is a legitimate issue. Guns are lethal and should be treated that way. If there are children present addition precautions may be needed. Whether the kid has problems or not.

I think I'll go look at barto's GunVault.

So why'd he jump mill for just noting the powerful effect of bullying.

Nobody was suggesting Jeff should have been given a pass had he survived. Nobody here was suggesting that. Not at all. Not one.

Just a lot of wondering why such a tragedy might occur. Considering the factors.

Yet Many rolls in accusing any and all of giving the kid a pass.

The kid is dead. 9 others as well - by his hand. It is only sane to look for causes - yet he damns those who do. That is smoke.

So on to safe gun ownership. How'd that clearly unstable kid get the 1st gun? The gun he killed gramps with - and then got more.

I wouldn't consider any one that is bullied once or twice in a week by one or two class bullies (let alone over the course of semester) to be a victim of what I am talking about.

Website is being redone. Bummer.

Oh but they should. That is, if the sane is the crazy and the crazy should be the sane.

I saw two guys get stripped of their lunchmoney every day. One is a marine seargent. The bully?

Doing time. I kid you not.

It's not only my take (most kids are bullies) hunin has put forth arguments that document this.
Nor do I want to see kids waste a shitload of kids across the land.
But if I was on the jury that was trying that kid (the abstract one that doesn't kill himself in the process) I'd find him guilty of murder only of the kids that could not be demonstrated to bully him. That would open the eyes of the little pricks parents that were always so quick to defend their little monster.


They could have saved his life by straightening his ass out, but chose not to, preferring instead to buy into the thinking that the kid has somehow done something to get bullied. As if he is in some way responsible for his own torment. In that way, they are negligent.

People try to minimize it by relating it to some infrequent occurence. At its worst, it's not infrequent, and it's not a handful of kids that take part in it.

And in none of those posts did I suggest the kid should get off scot-free.

Yes, that is what I said. Do you have a comment?

Point?

The point is the one that I have repeatedly made. I hear Millness saying let these guys off -- at least partially. I hear Nomarchy say legal system as per usual; look elsewhere into what is wrong with sociology in the school system. Then I hear Nomarchy say Millness has the same take he does.

Not from my reading.

I don't throw those us up as anything but to emphasize what they say, that seems to be altered in the flow.

It is interesting to equate or differentiate bullying with murder in the scheme of wrongs which we may do each other.

Separately: the personal behind the political permeates your posts, Millness. (I've been there, too.)

You have a better solution? manslaughter for the predators, murder for the bystanders.

I didn't see mill giving these criminal events a pass - just noting mitigating circumstances. And noting if a juror he'd give it worth from the top. Likely w/such an attitude he wouldn't make it on the jury.

too far. vigilantes?


no way. what's next?

Would I try to hide such sentiment?

The whole jury selection thing is one of my pet peeves as well.
For one thing, it removes the citizen's last defense against an unjust law, nullification.

But that's a whole different discussion.

Peace and happiness for all on the playground and classroom?
A healthy environment to live and grow and express oneself without fear of daily assault?


I think it's worth the risk.

The kids went one school that had - and had to have - a consistent social skills training program applied to all the kids all the time and an anti-bully process that worked quite well - and a public school.

They also went to a school where there were a small number of kids that were basically in charge, and whose families denied any ability nor tolerated any expectation that they'd be expected to control them.

That family finally moved to another town.

If their kids had not had the opportunity to get beat nearly daily for weeks, had, in fact stayed in the other town, we'd have been reading about them in the paper, no doubt in my mind.

I think this kind of killing is mitigated in this age group by the age of the offender, I also see HI's point that the people responsible for controlling & teaching control to those kids are part of the problem clearly.

And the bullying has taken on a more forceful and meaner quality too. I was 'the new kid' in seven different schools, and it really is worse now: unrelenting, lower blows, more aggressive and less controlled by staff.

And the bully's in the upper social strata of these schools, too. More support and, like in Columbine football players deputized as culture police, giving kids who wouldn't ordinairily throw a slam permission to do so with impunity and support.

Not just a bully or two, but the whole class or grade.

When did you turn into such an idealistic social engineer? And which is it you think most people are: evil or good -- as you said the other day was the natural demarcation line between Republicans and Democrats?

aah Barta, if you could have only known me in my youth. Much sharper than the current version.


I think people are basically evil. That is to say selfish at the core. The better ones have learned that cooperation and interdependence are the key to a bigger whole from which to cut out their chunk.

Note celt's observation here....


And the bully's in the upper social strata of these schools, too. More support and, like in Columbine football players deputized as culture police, giving kids who wouldn't ordinairily throw a slam permission to do so with impunity and support.

Not just a bully or two, but the whole class or grade.


That is my experience.

Are you ever a bully?