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Mizilus
Ok, I dont want this to be the atypical religion thread that dissolves into a "holier than thou" free for all. I want it to be a "religious" discussion in that it should be peaceful and helpful because I have a question/concern.

I'm sure most could agree that the message that Jesus preached was the most beautiful thing/thought that could ever have been shared with others.

I just have a few concerns:


The God of the Old Testament was known as "Jehovah of armies" and led, yes Led, the Isrealites on a campaign of conquest. He was a jealous God and he rendered his punishment nearly instantly. There were certain strict rules of worship, and there was a certain family/clan that the priesthood was specifically reserved for.

Now along comes Jesus and he changes a whole lot of stuff (for the good personally speaking) and for the times these changes were BEYOND RADICAL.

I mean it's no wonder many Jews do not accept Christ as the Messiah. No matter how pretty his words are. They look at the Torah, and the very first Commandment, and the history of what had happened to their people when they got out of line...well it seems to me a no-brainer if one would read the Bible cover to cover.
Bee
QUOTE(Mizilus @ Feb 18 2005, 06:26 PM)
Ok, I dont want this to be the atypical religion thread that dissolves into a "holier than thou" free for all. I want it to be a "religious" discussion in that it should be peaceful and helpful because I have a question/concern.

I'm sure most could agree that the message that Jesus preached was the most beautiful thing/thought that could ever have been shared with others.

I just have a few concerns:
The God of the Old Testament was known as "Jehovah of armies" and led, yes Led, the Isrealites on a campaign of conquest. He was a jealous God and he rendered his punishment nearly instantly. There were certain strict rules of worship, and there was a certain family/clan that the priesthood was specifically reserved for.

Now along comes Jesus and he changes a whole lot of stuff (for the good personally speaking) and for the times these changes were BEYOND RADICAL.

I mean it's no wonder many Jews do not accept Christ as the Messiah. No matter how pretty his words are. They look at the Torah, and the very first Commandment, and the history of what had happened to their people when they got out of line...well it seems to me a no-brainer if one would read the Bible cover to cover.
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I haven't read the Torah, I know that the OT is basically only a part of it. Most of the Jews I know are rather peaceful progressive thinkers, though.
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(Mizilus @ Feb 18 2005, 11:26 PM)
Ok, I dont want this to be the atypical religion thread that dissolves into a "holier than thou" free for all. I want it to be a "religious" discussion in that it should be peaceful and helpful because I have a question/concern.

I'm sure most could agree that the message that Jesus preached was the most beautiful thing/thought that could ever have been shared with others.

I just have a few concerns:
The God of the Old Testament was known as "Jehovah of armies" and led, yes Led, the Isrealites on a campaign of conquest. He was a jealous God and he rendered his punishment nearly instantly. There were certain strict rules of worship, and there was a certain family/clan that the priesthood was specifically reserved for.

Now along comes Jesus and he changes a whole lot of stuff (for the good personally speaking) and for the times these changes were BEYOND RADICAL.

I mean it's no wonder many Jews do not accept Christ as the Messiah. No matter how pretty his words are. They look at the Torah, and the very first Commandment, and the history of what had happened to their people when they got out of line...well it seems to me a no-brainer if one would read the Bible cover to cover.
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Can't quite determine what your concern/question is, miz....but from a Christian perspective the Jews will be "trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
csh
Then Almitra spoke, saying, We would ask now of Death.
And he said:
You would know the secret of death.
But how shall you find it unless you seek it in the heart of life?
The owl whose night-bound eyes are blind unto the day cannot unveil the mystery of light.
If you would indeed behold the spirit of death, open your heart wide unto the body of life.
For life and death are one, even as the river and the sea are one.
In the depth of your hopes and desires lies your silent knowledge of the beyond; And like seeds dreaming beneath the snow your heart dreams of spring.
Trust the dreams, for in them is hidden the gate to eternity.
Your fear of death is but the trembling of the shepherd when he stands before the king whose hand is to be laid upon him in honour.
Is the shepherd not joyful beneath his trembling, that he shall wear the mark of the king?
Yet is he not more mindful of his trembling?
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun?
And what is it to cease breathing, but to free the breath from its restless tides, that it may rise and expand and seek God unencumbered?
Only when you drink from the river of silence shall you indeed sing.
And when you have reached the mountaintop, then you shall begin to climb.
And when the earth shall claim your limbs, then shall you truly dance.

A question taken from the THE PROPHIT by Kahlil Gibran

There is way too much fear. Way too much fear
There are too many lies preached from pulpits.
csh
Franciscans

Canticle of the Creatures (English version)

Most high, all-powerful, all good, Lord!
All praise is yours, all glory, all honor
And all blessing.

To you alone, Most High, do they belong.
No mortal lips are worthy
To pronounce your name.

All praise be yours, my Lord, through all that you have made,
And first my lord Brother Sun,
Who brings the day; and light you give to us through him.
How beautiful is he, how radiant in all his splendor!
Of you, Most High, he bears the likeness.

All praise be yours, my Lord, through Sister Moon and Stars;
In the heavens you have made them, bright
And precious and fair.

All praise be yours, my Lord, through Brothers Wind and Air,
And fair and stormy, all the weather's moods,
By which you cherish all that you have made.

All praise be yours, my Lord, through Sister Water,
So useful, lowly, precious, and pure.

All praise be yours, my Lord, through Brother Fire,
Through whom you brighten up the night.
How beautiful he is, how gayl Full of power and strength.

All praise be yours, my Lord, through Sister Earth, our mother,
Who feeds us in her sovereignty and produces
Various fruits and colored flowers and herbs.

All praise be yours, my Lord, through those who grant pardon
For love of you; through those who endure
Sickness and trial.

Happy those who endure in peace,
By you, Most High, they will be crowned.

All praise be yours, my Lord, through Sister Death,
From whose embrace no mortal can escape.
Woe to those who die in mortal sinl
Happy those She finds doing your will!
The second death can do no harm to them.
Praise and bless my Lord, and give him thanks,
And serve him with great humility.

--St. Francis of Assisi

csh
water and wine

turning water into wine at the wedding feast
the disciples were drunk on wine

Alternatively, could this also mean that the water represents the symbol of the old ways and teachings
the wine then represents the symbol of the new ways and teachings

rather than the religious dishonesty that these two events were physical miracles

Repub_Bub
QUOTE(csh @ Apr 30 2005, 12:53 AM)
water and wine

turning water into wine at the wedding feast
the disciples were drunk on wine

Alternatively, could this also mean that the water represents the symbol of the old ways and teachings
the wine then represents the symbol of the new ways and teachings

rather than the religious dishonesty that these two events were physical miracles
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Based upon your outlook, I'm surprised you don't think it might have been a coded message to the Gallo brothers.
Bee
Once again, omnipotent bub makes a judgement based on....who knows what

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csh
I tried that analogy on a "devote" christian who is upset with her church splitting and the angry and violent people left the fold of the church'''''(many members started a new church but still affiliated with the big organization...so now they can ask for more money from the newbees and the whole of the organization will still be sending the money to mr big) didn't tell her that part
cut me some slack... while talking to the person I did not mention organized religious dishonesty...but rather think...
csh
The Beatitudes is a wish
That more Christians
Would remember
But often times the bible
Is more and more similar to opera
Full filling truths of the flesh.
Man is always forgetting
That beauty is often
Just a blink
csh
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(csh @ May 10 2005, 04:07 AM)
The Beatitudes is a wish
That more Christians
Would remember
But often times the bible
Is more and more similar to opera
Full filling truths of the flesh.
Man is always forgetting
That beauty is often
Just a blink
csh
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The beatitudes are a beauty
and so priceless in their meaning
They compare no more to opera
than some full fat lady singing.
csh
Power of Prayer:

In the spring of 1902, a young farmer was confronted with a couple of problems. His horses got distemper that spring and he couldn’t get much work out of them. He went to his uncle and told him his troubles and asked him if he could borrow a horse 'till he could get his crop in. The uncle told him he didn’t have a horse he could loan him but he would pray for him. The young farmer was two weeks late getting his corn planted than his neighbors but the summer rains came a little late and the early corn got hurt and the rains came just right for his corn and his corn made twice the yield per acre.

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Bix12
QUOTE(csh @ May 13 2005, 06:50 PM)
Power of Prayer:

In the spring of 1902, a young farmer was confronted with a couple of problems. His horses got distemper that spring and he couldn’t get much work out of them. He went to his uncle and told him his troubles and asked him if he could borrow a horse 'till he could get his crop in. The uncle told him he didn’t have a horse he could loan him but he would pray for him. The young farmer was two weeks late getting his corn planted than his neighbors but the summer rains came a little late and the early corn got hurt and the rains came just right for his corn and his corn made twice the yield per acre.

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Or inefficency...

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csh
Hey that was a story out of a geneology on my father's father side of the family.

The really good story is the one on the price of land in Iowa during the times after the 1880's bank crash, the homesteading and the prices of farms and acres prior to the banks crashing in the 1920's....really interesting prices!

reminds me of today and Greenspan's latest Senate informational hearings.
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Repub_Bub
QUOTE(csh @ May 13 2005, 10:50 PM)
Power of Prayer:

In the spring of 1902, a young farmer was confronted with a couple of problems. His horses got distemper that spring and he couldn’t get much work out of them. He went to his uncle and told him his troubles and asked him if he could borrow a horse 'till he could get his crop in. The uncle told him he didn’t have a horse he could loan him but he would pray for him. The young farmer was two weeks late getting his corn planted than his neighbors but the summer rains came a little late and the early corn got hurt and the rains came just right for his corn and his corn made twice the yield per acre.

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Guess the prayer musta worked. wink.gif
csh
Our local newspaper printed a strange letter so I have been doing further research into religion and the organization of Christians.

Kingdom Now theology
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_Now_theology

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Bee
This is from the New Republic (subscription) so I'm posting the whooole thing. Hope it's of interest.

THE CASE AGAINST INTELLIGENT DESIGN.
The Faith That Dare Not Speak Its Name
by Jerry Coyne

Post date 08.11.05 | Issue date 08.22.05

Of Pandas and People
By Percival Davis and Dean H. Kenyon
(Haughton Publishing Company, 170 pp., $24.95)
Click here to purchase the book.

I.

Exactly eighty years after the Scopes "monkey trial" in Dayton, Tennessee, history is about to repeat itself. In a courtroom in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania in late September, scientists and creationists will square off about whether and how high school students in Dover, Pennsylvania will learn about biological evolution. One would have assumed that these battles were over, but that is to underestimate the fury (and the ingenuity) of creationists scorned.

The Scopes trial of our day--Kitzmiller, et al v. Dover Area School District et al--began innocuously. In the spring of 2004, the district's textbook review committee recommended that a new commercial text replace the outdated biology book. At a school board meeting in June, William Buckingham, the chair of the board's curriculum committee, complained that the proposed replacement book was "laced with Darwinism." After challenging the audience to trace its roots back to a monkey, he suggested that a more suitable textbook would include biblical theories of creation. When asked whether this might offend those of other faiths, Buckingham replied, "This country wasn't founded on Muslim beliefs or evolution. This country was founded on Christianity and our students should be taught as such." Defending his views a week later, Buckingham reportedly pleaded: "Two thousand years ago, someone died on a cross. Can't someone take a stand for him?" And he added: "Nowhere in the Constitution does it call for a separation of church and state."

After a summer of heated but inconclusive wrangling, on October 18, 2004 the Dover school board passed, by a vote of six to three, a resolution that read: "Students will be made aware of gaps/problems in Darwin's theory and of other theories of evolution including, but not limited to, intelligent design. Note: Origins of Life is not taught." A month later, the Dover school district issued a press release revealing how the alternative of "intelligent design" was to be presented. Before starting to teach evolution, biology teachers were to read their ninth-grade students a statement, which included the following language:

The Pennsylvania Academic Standards require students to learn about Darwin's Theory of Evolution and eventually to take a standardized test of which evolution is a part.

Because Darwin's Theory is a theory, it continues to be tested as new evidence is discovered. The Theory is not a fact. Gaps in the Theory exist for which there is no evidence.... Intelligent design is an explanation of the origin of life that differs from Darwin's view. The reference book, Of Pandas and People, is available for students to see if they would like to explore this view in an effort to gain an understanding of what intelligent design actually involves. As is true with any theory, students are encouraged to keep an open mind.

The results were dramatic but predictable. Two school board members resigned. All eight science teachers at Dover High School sent a letter to the school superintendent pointing out that "intelligent design is not science. It is not biology. It is not an accepted scientific theory." The biology teachers asked to be excused from reading the statement, claiming that to do so would "knowingly and intentionally misrepresent subject matter or curriculum," a violation of their code of professional standards. And so, in January of this year, all ninth-grade biology classes were visited by the assistant superintendent himself, who read the mandated disclaimer while the teachers and a few students left the room.

Inevitably, the controversy went to the courts. Eleven Dover parents filed suit against the school district and its board of directors, asking that the "intelligent design" policy be rescinded for fostering "excessive entanglement of government and religion, coerced religious instruction, and an endorsement by the state of religion over non-religion and of one religious viewpoint over others." The plaintiffs are represented by the Philadelphia law firm of Pepper Hamilton, the Pennsylvania American Civil Liberties Union, and Americans United for Separation of Church and State; the defendants, by the Thomas More Law Center, a conservative Christian organization in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

Why all the fuss about a seemingly inoffensive statement? Who could possibly object to students "keep[ing] an open mind" and examining a respectable-sounding alternative to evolution? Isn't science about testing theories against each other? The furor makes sense only in light of the tortuous history of creationism in America. Since it arose after World War I, Christianfundamentalist creationism has undergone its own evolution, taking on newer forms after absorbing repeated blows from the courts. "Intelligent design," as I will show, is merely the latest incarnation of the biblical creationism espoused by William Jennings Bryan in Dayton. Far from a respectable scientific alternative to evolution, it is a clever attempt to sneak religion, cloaked in the guise of science, into the public schools.

The journey from Dayton to Dover was marked by a series of legal verdicts, only one of which, the Scopes trial, favored creationism. In 1925, John Scopes, a high school teacher, was convicted of violating Tennessee's Butler Act, which prohibited the teaching of "any theory that denies the Story of Divine Creation of Man as taught in the Bible, and to teach instead that man has descended from a lower order of animal." The verdict was reversed on a technicality (the judge, instead of the jury, levied the $100 fine), so the case was never appealed. In the wake of Scopes, anti-evolution laws were passed in Mississippi and Arkansas, adding to those passed by Florida and Oklahoma in 1923. Although these laws were rarely enforced, evolution nonetheless quickly disappeared from most high school biology textbooks because publishers feared losing sales in the South, where anti-evolution sentiment ran high.

In 1957, the situation changed. With the launch of Sputnik, Americans awoke to find that a scientifically advanced Soviet Union had beaten the United States into space. This spurred rapid revisions of science textbooks, some emphasizing biological evolution. But the anti-evolution statutes were still in force, and so some teachers using newer books were violating the law. One of these teachers, Susan Epperson, brought suit against the state of Arkansas for violating the Establishment Clause. She won the right to teach evolution, and Epperson v. Arkansas was upheld by the United States Supreme Court in 1968, only a year after Tennessee finally rescinded the Butler Act. Finally it was legal to teach evolution everywhere in America.

The opponents of evolution proceeded to re-think their strategy, deciding that if they could not beat scientists, they would join them. They thus recast themselves as "scientific creationists," proposing an ostensibly non-religious alternative to the theory of evolution that might be acceptable in the classroom. But the empirical claims of scientific creationism--that the Earth is young (6,000 to 10,000 years old), that all species were created suddenly and simultaneously, that mass extinctions were caused by a great worldwide flood--bore a suspicious resemblance to creation stories in the Bible. This strategy was devised largely by Henry Morris, an engineering professor who headed the influential Institute for Creation Research in San Diego and helped to write the Scientific Creationism. The book came in two versions: one purged of religious references for the public schools, the other containing a scriptural appendix explaining that the science came from interpreting the Bible literally.

Scientific creationism proved a bust for two reasons. First, the "science" was ludicrously wrong. We have known for a long time that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old (the 6,000- to 10,000-year claim comes from biblical statements, including toting up the number of "begats") and that species were not created suddenly or simultaneously (not only do most species go extinct, but various groups appear at different times in the fossil record), and we have ample evidence for species' changing over time, as well as for fossils that illustrate large morphological transformations. Most risible was Scientific Creationism's struggle to explain the geological record as a result of a great flood: according to its account, "primitive" organisms such as fish would be found in the lowest layers, while mammals and more "advanced" species appeared in higher layers because they climbed hills and mountains to escape the rising waters. Why dolphins are found in the upper strata with other mammals is one of many facts that this ludicrous fantasy fails to explain.

Scientific creationism also came to grief because its advocates did not adequately hide its religious underpinnings. In 1981, the Arkansas legislature passed an "equal time" bill mandating balanced treatment for "evolution science" and "creation science" in the classroom. The bill was quickly challenged in federal court by a group of religious and scientific plaintiffs led by a Methodist minister named William McLean. The defense was easily outgunned, with Judge William Overton quickly spotting biblical literalism underlying the scientific-creationist arguments. In a landmark opinion (and a masterpiece of legal argument), Overton ruled in McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education that the balanced-treatment act was unconstitutional, asserting that it violated the Establishment Clause in three ways: it lacked a secular legislative purpose, its primary effect was to advance religion, and it fostered excessive government entanglement with religion.

McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education began a string of legal setbacks for scientific creationists. Five years later, in Edwards v. Aguillard, the Supreme Court held that Louisiana's "Creationism Act"--an act that required the teaching of evolution in public schools to be balanced by instruction in "creation science"--was unconstitutional. In the last two decades, federal courts have also used the First Amendment to allow schools to prohibit teaching creationism and to ban school districts from requiring teachers to read evolution disclaimers similar to the one used in Dover, Pennsylvania. To get around these rulings, schools in Alabama, Arkansas, and Georgia began pasting warning stickers in biology textbooks, as if learning about evolution could endanger one's mental health. A recent specimen from Cobb County, Georgia reads: "This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered."

To laypeople--particularly those unfamiliar with the scientific status of evolution, which is actually a theory and a fact--the phrasing may seem harmless. But in 2005 a federal judge ordered the stickers removed. By singling out evolution as uniquely controversial among scientific theories, the stickers catered to religious biases and thus violated the First Amendment.

But the creationists did not despair. They are animated, after all, by faith. And they are very resourceful. They came up with intelligent design.

II.

Intelligent design, or ID, is the latest pseudoscientific incarnation of religious creationism, cleverly crafted by a new group of enthusiasts to circumvent recent legal restrictions. ID comes in two parts. The first is a simple critique of evolutionary theory, to the effect that Darwinism, as an explanation of the origin, the development, and the diversity of life, is fatally flawed. The second is the assertion that the major features of life are best understood as the result of creation by a supernatural intelligent designer. To understand ID, then, we must first understand modern evolutionary theory (often called "neo-Darwinism" to take into account post-Darwinian modifications).

It is important to realize at the outset that evolution is not "just a theory." It is, again, a theory and a fact. Although non-scientists often equate "theory" with "hunch" or "wild guess," the Oxford English Dictionary defines a scientific theory as "a scheme or system of ideas or statements held as an explanation or account of a group of facts or phenomena; a hypothesis that has been confirmed or established by observation or experiment, and is propounded or accepted as accounting for the known facts." In science, a theory is a convincing explanation for a diversity of data from nature. Thus scientists speak of "atomic theory" and "gravitational theory" as explanations for the properties of matter and the mutual attraction of physical bodies. It makes as little sense to doubt the factuality of evolution as to doubt the factuality of gravity.

Neo-Darwinian theory is not one proposition but several. The first proposition is that populations of organisms have evolved. (Darwin, who used the word "evolved" only once in On the Origin of Species, called this principle "descent with modification.") That is, the species on earth today are the descendants of other species that lived earlier, and the change in these lineages has been gradual, taking thousands to millions of years. Humans, for example, evolved from distinctly different organisms that had smaller brains and probably lived in trees.

The second proposition is that new forms of life are continually generated by the splitting of a single lineage into two or more lineages. This is known as "speciation." About five million years ago, a species of primates split into two distinct lineages: one leading to modern chimpanzees and the other to modern humans. And this ancestral primate itself shared a common ancestor with earlier primates, which in turn shared a common ancestor with other mammals. The earlier ancestor of all mammals shared an even earlier ancestor with reptiles, and so on back to the origin of life. Such successive splitting yields the common metaphor of an evolutionary "tree of life," whose root was the first species to arise and whose twigs are the millions of living species. Any two extant species share a common ancestor, which can in principle be found by tracing that pair of twigs back through the branches to the node where they meet. (Extinction, of course, has pruned some branches--pterodactyls, for example--which represent groups that died off without descendants.) We are more closely related to chimpanzees than to orangutans because our common ancestor with these primates lived five million versus ten million years ago, respectively. (It is important to note that although we share a common ancestor with apes, we did not evolve from living apes, but from apelike species that no longer exist. Similarly, I am related to my cousin, but the ancestors we share are two extinct grandparents.)

The third proposition is that most (though not all) of evolutionary change is probably driven by natural selection: individuals carrying genes that better suit them to the current environment leave more offspring than individuals carrying genes that make them less adapted. Over time, the genetic composition of a population changes, improving its "fit" to the environment. This increasing fit is what gives organisms the appearance of design, although, as we shall see, the "design" can be flawed.

These three propositions were first articulated in 1859 by Darwin in On the Origin of Species, and they have not changed substantially, although they have been refined and supplemented by modern work. But Darwin did not propose these ideas as pure "theory"; he also provided voluminous and convincing evidence for them. The weight of this evidence was so overwhelming that it crushed creationism. Within fifteen years, nearly all biologists, previously adherents of "natural theology," abandoned that view and accepted Darwin's first two propositions. Broad acceptance of natural selection came much later, around 1930.

The overwhelming evidence for evolution can be found in many books (and on many websites). Here I wish to present just a few observations that not only support the neo-Darwinist account, but in so doing refute the alternative theory of creationism--that God specially created organisms and their attributes. Given the similarity between the claims of intelligent design and creationism, it is not surprising that these observations also refute the major tenets of ID.

The fossil record is the most obvious place to search for evidence of evolution. Although the record was sparse in Darwin's time, there were already findings that suggested evolution. The living armadillos of South America bore a striking resemblance to fossil glyptodonts, extinct armored mammals whose fossils occurred in the same area. This suggested that glyptodonts and armadillos shared a common South American ancestry. And the record clearly displayed changes in the forms of life existing over large spans of time, with the deepest and oldest sediments showing marine invertebrates, with fishes appearing much later, and still later amphibians, reptiles, and mammals (along with the persistence of some groups found in earlier stages). This sequence of change was in fact established by creationist geologists long before Darwin, and was often thought to reflect hundreds of acts of divine creation. (This does not exactly comport with the account given in Genesis.)

Yet evolution predicts not just successions of forms, but also genetic lineages from ancestors to descendants. The absence of such transitional series in the fossil record bothered Darwin, who called this "the most obvious and serious objection that can be urged against the theory." (He attributed the missing links, quite reasonably, to the imperfection of the fossil record and the dearth of paleontological collections.) But this objection is no longer valid. Since 1859, paleontologists have turned up Darwin's missing evidence: fossils in profusion, with many sequences showing evolutionary change. In large and small organisms, we can trace, through successive layers of the fossil record, evolutionary changes occurring in lineages. Diatoms get bigger, clamshells get ribbier, horses get larger and toothier, and the human lineage evolves bigger brains, smaller teeth, and increased efficiency at bipedal walking. Moreover, we now have transitional forms connecting major groups of organisms, including fish with tetrapods, dinosaurs with birds, reptiles with mammals, and land mammals with whales. Darwin predicted that such forms would be found, and their discovery vindicated him fully. It also destroys the creationist notion that species were created in their present form and thereafter remained unchanged.

Darwin's second line of evidence comprised the developmental and structural remnants of past ancestry that we find in living species--those features that Stephen Jay Gould called "the senseless signs of history." Examples are numerous. Both birds and toothless anteaters develop tooth buds as embryos, but the teeth are aborted and never erupt; the buds are the remnants of the teeth of the reptilian ancestor of birds and the toothed ancestor of anteaters. The flightless kiwi bird of New Zealand, familiar from shoe-polish cans, has tiny vestigial wings hidden under its feathers; they are completely useless, but they attest to the fact that kiwis, like all flightless birds, evolved from flying ancestors. Some cave animals, descended from sighted ancestors that invaded caves, have rudimentary eyes that cannot see; the eyes degenerated after they were no longer needed. A creator, especially an intelligent one, would not bestow useless tooth buds, wings, or eyes on large numbers of species.

The human body is also a palimpsest of our ancestry. Our appendix is the vestigial remnant of an intestinal pouch used to ferment the hard-to-digest plant diets of our ancestors. (Orangutans and grazing animals have a large hollow appendix instead of the tiny, wormlike one that we possess.) An appendix is simply a bad thing to have. It is certainly not the product of intelligent design: how many humans died of appendicitis before surgery was invented? And consider also lanugo. Five months after conception, human fetuses grow a thin coat of hair, called lanugo, all over their bodies. It does not seem useful--after all, it is a comfortable 98.6 degrees in utero--and the hair is usually shed shortly before birth. The feature makes sense only as an evolutionary remnant of our primate ancestry; fetal apes also grow such a coat, but they do not shed it.

Recent studies of the human genome provide more evidence that we were not created ex nihilo. Our genome is a veritable Gemisch of non-functional DNA, including many inactive "pseudogenes" that were functional in our ancestors. Why do humans, unlike most mammals, require vitamin C in our diet? Because primates cannot synthesize this essential nutrient from simpler chemicals. Yet we still carry all the genes for synthesizing vitamin C. The gene used for the last step in this pathway was inactivated by mutations forty million years ago, probably because it was unnecessary in fruit-eating primates. But it still sits in our DNA, one of many useless remnants testifying to our evolutionary ancestry.

Darwin's third line of evidence came from biogeography, the study of the geographic distribution of plants and animals. I have already mentioned what Darwin called his "Law of Succession": living organisms in an area most closely resemble fossils found in the same location. This implies that the former evolved from the latter. But Darwin found his strongest evidence on "oceanic islands"--those islands, such as Hawaii and the Galápagos, that were never connected to continents but arose, bereft of life, from beneath the sea.

What struck Darwin about oceanic islands--as opposed to continents or "continental islands" such as Great Britain, which were once connected to continents--was the bizarre nature of their flora and fauna. Oceanic islands are simply missing or impoverished in many types of animals. Hawaii has no native mammals, reptiles, or amphibians. These animals, as well as freshwater fish, are also missing on St. Helena, a remote oceanic island in the middle of the South Atlantic Ocean. It seems that the intelligent designer forgot to stock oceanic (but not continental!) islands with a sufficient variety of animals. One might respond that this was a strategy of the creator, as those organisms might not survive on islands. But this objection fails, because such animals often do spectacularly well when introduced by humans. Hawaii has been overrun by the introduced cane toad and mongoose, to the detriment of its native fauna.

Strikingly, the native groups that are present on these islands--mainly plants, insects, and birds--are present in profusion, consisting of clusters of numerous similar species. The Galápagos archipelago harbors twenty-three species of land birds, of which fourteen species are finches. Nowhere else in the world will you find an area in which two-thirds of the birds are finches. Hawaii has similar "radiations" of fruit flies and silversword plants, while St. Helena is overloaded with ferns and weevils. Compared with continents or continental islands, then, oceanic islands have unbalanced flora and fauna, lacking many familiar groups but having an over-representation of some species.

Moreover, the animals and the plants inhabiting oceanic islands bear the greatest similarity to species found on the nearest mainland. As Darwin noted when describing the species of the Galápagos, this similarity occurs despite a great difference in habitat, a fact militating against creationism:

Why should the species which are supposed to have been created in the Galápagos Archipelago, and nowhere else, bear so plainly the stamp of affinity to those created in America? There is nothing in the conditions of life, in the geological nature of the islands, in their height or climate, or in the proportions in which the several classes are associated together, which resembles closely the conditions of the South American coast: in fact there is a considerable dissimilarity in all these respects.

As the final peg in Darwin's biogeographic argument, he noted that the kinds of organisms commonly found on oceanic islands--birds, plants, and insects--are those that can easily get there. Insects and birds can fly to islands (or be blown there by winds), and the seeds of plants can be transported by winds or ocean currents, or in the stomachs of birds. Hawaii may have no native terrestrial mammals, but the islands do harbor one native aquatic mammal, the monk seal, and one native flying mammal, the hoary bat. In a direct challenge to creationists (and now also to advocates of ID), Darwin posed this rhetorical question:

Though terrestrial mammals do not occur on oceanic islands, aerial mammals do occur on almost every island. New Zealand possesses two bats found nowhere else in the world: Norfolk Island, the Viti Archipelago, the Bonin Islands, the Caroline and Marianne Archipelagoes, and Mauritius, all possess their peculiar bats. Why, it may be asked, has the supposed creative force produced bats and no other mammals on remote islands?

The answer is that the creative force did not produce bats, or any other creatures, on oceanic islands. All of Darwin's observations about island biogeography point to one explanation: species on islands descend from individuals who successfully colonized from the mainland and subsequently evolved into new species. Only the theory of evolution explains the paucity of mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, and freshwater fish on oceanic islands (they cannot get there), the radiation of some groups into many species (the few species that make it to islands find empty niches and speciate profusely), and the resemblance of island species to those from the nearest mainland (an island colonist is most likely to have come from the closest source).

In the last 150 years, immense amounts of new evidence have been collected about biogeography, embryology, and, especially, the fossil record. All of it supports evolution. But support for the idea of natural selection was not so strong, and Darwin had no direct evidence for it. He relied instead on two arguments. The first was logical. If individuals in a population varied genetically (which they do), and some of this variation affected the individual's chance of leaving descendants (which seems likely), then natural selection would work automatically, enriching the population in genes that better adapted individuals to their environment.

The second argument was analogical. Artificial selection used by breeders had wrought immense changes in plants and animals, a fact familiar to everyone. From the ancestral wolf, humans selected forms as diverse as Chihuahuas, St. Bernards, poodles, and bulldogs. Starting with wild cabbage, breeders produced domestic cabbage, broccoli, kohlrabi, kale, cauliflower, and Brussels sprouts. Artificial selection is nearly identical to natural selection, except that humans rather than the environment determine which variants leave offspring. And if artificial selection can produce such a diversity of domesticated plants and animals in a thousand-odd years, natural selection could obviously do much more over millions of years.

But we no longer need to buttress natural selection solely with analogy and logic. Biologists have now observed hundreds of cases of natural selection, beginning with the well-known examples of bacterial resistance to antibiotics, insect resistance to DDT, and HIV resistance to antiviral drugs. Natural selection accounts for the resistance of fish and mice to predators by making them more camouflaged, and for the adaptation of plants to toxic minerals in the soil. (A long list of examples may be found in Natural Selection in the Wild, by John Endler.) Moreover, the strength of selection observed in the wild, when extrapolated over long periods, is more than adequate to explain the diversification of life on Earth.

Since 1859, Darwin's theories have been expanded, and we now know that some evolutionary change can be caused by forces other than natural selection. For example, random and non-adaptive changes in the frequencies of different genetic variants--the genetic equivalent of coin-tossing--have produced evolutionary changes in DNA sequences. Yet selection is still the only known evolutionary force that can produce the fit between organism and environment (or between organism and organism) that makes nature seem "designed." As the geneticist Theodosius Dobzhansky remarked, "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."

And so evolution has graduated from theory to fact. We know that species on earth today descended from earlier, different species, and that every pair of species had a common ancestor that existed in the past. Most evolutionary change in the features of organisms, moreover, is almost certainly the result of natural selection. But we must also remember that, like all scientific truths, the truth of evolution is provisional: it could conceivably be overturned by future investigations. It is possible (but unlikely!) that we could find human fossils co-existing with dinosaurs, or fossils of birds living alongside those of the earliest invertebrates 600 million years ago. Either observation would sink neo-Darwinism for good.

When applied to evolution, the erroneous distinction between theory and fact shows why tactics such as the Dover disclaimer and the Cobb County textbook sticker are doubly pernicious. To teach that a scientific theory is equivalent to a "guess" or a "hunch" is deeply misleading, and to assert that "evolution is a theory, not a fact" is simply false. And why should evolution, alone among scientific theories, be singled out with the caveat "This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered"? Why haven't school boards put similar warnings in physics textbooks, noting that gravity and electrons are only theories, not facts, and should be critically considered? After all, nobody has ever seen gravity or an electron. The reason that evolution stands alone is clear: other scientific theories do not offend religious sensibilities.

III.

Given the copious evidence for evolution, it seems unlikely that it will be replaced by an alternative theory. But that is exactly what intelligent-design creationists are demanding. Is there some dramatic new evidence, then, or some insufficiency of neo-Darwinism, that warrants overturning the theory of evolution?

The question is worth asking, but the answer is no. Intelligent design is simply the third attempt of creationists to proselytize our children at the expense of good science and clear thinking. Having failed to ban evolution from schools, and later to get equal classroom time for scientific creationism, they have made a few adjustments designed to sneak Christian cosmogony past the First Amendment. And these adjustments have given ID a popularity never enjoyed by earlier forms of creationism. Even the president of the United States has lent a sympathetic ear: George W. Bush recently told reporters in Texas that intelligent design should be taught in public schools alongside evolution because "part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought." Articles by IDers, or about their "theory," regularly appear in mainstream publications such as The New York Times.

Why have the new image and the new approach been more successful? For a start, IDers have duped many people by further removing God from the picture, or at least hiding him behind the frame. No longer do creationists mention a deity, or even a creator, but simply a neutral-sounding "intelligent designer," as if it were not the same thing. This designer could in principle be Brahma, or the Taoist P'an Ku, or even a space alien; but ID creationists, as will be evident to anybody who attends to all that they say, mean only one entity: the biblical God. Their problem is that invoking this deity in science classes in public schools is unconstitutional. So IDers never refer openly to God, and people unfamiliar with the history of their creationist doctrine might believe that there is a real scientific theory afoot. They use imposing new terms such as "irreducible complexity," which make their arguments seem more sophisticated than those of earlier creationists.

In addition, many IDers have more impressive academic credentials than did earlier scientific creationists, whose talks and antics always bore a whiff of the revival meeting. Unlike scientific creationists, many IDers work at secular institutions rather than at Bible schools. IDers work, speak, and write like trained academics; they do not come off as barely repressed evangelists. Their ranks include Phillip Johnson, the most prominent spokesperson for ID, and a retired professor of law at the University of California, Berkeley; Michael Behe, a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University; William Dembski, a mathematician-philosopher and the director of the Center for Theology and Science at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary; and Jonathan Wells, who has a doctorate in biology from Berkeley.

All of these proponents, save Johnson, are senior fellows at the Center for Science and Culture (CSC), a division of the Discovery Institute, which is a conservative think tank in Seattle. (Johnson is the "program advisor" to the CSC.) The CSC is the nerve center of the intelligentdesign movement. Its origins are demonstrably religious: as described by the Discovery Institute, the CSC was designed explicitly "to defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural, and political legacies" and "to replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God." Between them, these IDers have published more than a dozen books about intelligent design (Johnson alone has produced eight), which in turn have provoked numerous responses by scientists. Let us examine one of their most influential volumes, the textbook called Of Pandas and People. This is the book recommended by the Dover school district as a "reference book" for students interested in learning about intelligent design.

Of Pandas and People is a textbook designed as an antidote to the evolution segment of high school biology classes. It was first published in 1989. By repackaging and updating a subset of traditional young-earth creationist arguments while avoiding taking a stand on any issues that might divide creationists (such as the age of the Earth), it marked the beginning of the modern intelligent design movement. By presenting the case for ID, it is supposedly designed to give students a "balanced perspective" on evolution. Although the second edition of Pandas is now twelve years old (a third edition, called Design of Life, is in the works), it accurately presents to students the major arguments for ID.

Pandas carefully avoids mentioning God (except under aliases such as "intelligent designer," "master intellect," and so on); but a little digging reveals the book's deep religious roots. One of its authors, Percival Davis, wrote explicitly about his religious beliefs in his book A Case for Creation, co-authored with Wayne Frair: "Truth as God sees it is revealed in the pages of Scripture, and that revelation is therefore more certainly true than any human rationalism. For the creationist, revealed truth controls his view of the universe to at least as great a degree as anything that has been advanced using the scientific method." Its other author, Dean Kenyon, has written approvingly of scientific creationism.

Pandas is published by the Haughton Publishing Company of Dallas, a publisher of agricultural books, but the copyright is held by the Foundation for Thought and Ethics (FTE) in Richardson, Texas. Although the FTE website scrupulously avoids mentioning religion, its articles of incorporation note with stark clarity that its "primary purpose is both religious and educational, which includes, but is not limited to, proclaiming, preaching, teaching, promoting, broadcasting, disseminating, and otherwise making known the Christian gospel and understanding of the Bible and the light it sheds on the academic and social issues of our day." In a fund-raising letter for the proposed third edition of Pandas, Jon Buell, president of the FTE, is equally frank about his goals:

We will energetically continue to publish and propel these strategic tools in the battle for the minds and hearts of the young.... Yes, most young Americans are exposed to numerous gospel presentations. But the fog of the alien world view deadens their responses. This is why we have to inundate them with a rational, defensible, well-argued Judeo-Christian world view. FTE's carefully-researched books do just that.

Charles Thaxton, the "academic editor" of Pandas, is the director of curriculum research for FTE and a fellow of the CSC. In a proto-ID book on the origin of life, Thaxton argued that "Special Creation by a Creator beyond the cosmos is a plausible view of origin science."

Given Pandas' pedigree and the affiliations of its authors, it is not surprising that the book is nothing more than disguised creationism. What is surprising is the transparency of this disguise. Despite the efforts of IDers to come up with new anti-Darwinian arguments, Pandas turns out to be nothing more than recycled scientific creationism, with most of the old arguments buffed up and proffered as new. (Unlike scientific creationism, however, Pandas adopts a studied neutrality toward the facts of astronomy and geology, instead of denying them outright.)

Pandas' discussion of the Earth's age is a prime example of the book's creationist roots, and of its anti-scientific attitude. If the Earth were young--say, the 6,000 to 10,000 years old posited by "young earth" biblical creationists--then evolution would be false. Life simply could not have originated, evolved, and diversified in such a short time. But we now know from several independent and mutually corroborating lines of evidence that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old. All geologists agree on this. So what is Pandas' stance on this critical issue? The book merely notes that design proponents "are divided on the issue of the earth's age. Some take the view that the earth's history can be compressed into a framework of thousands of years, while others adhere to the standard old earth chronology." Well, what's the truth? This equivocation is an attempt to paper over a strong disagreement between young-earth creationists and old-earth creationists, both of whom have marched under the banner of ID. It is typical of creationists to exploit disagreements between evolutionists as proof that neo-Darwinism is dead while at the same time hiding their own disagreements from the public.

This equivocation about the fundamental fact of Earth's age does not bode well for the textbook's treatment of the fossil record. Indeed, in this area the authors continue their misrepresentations. Their basic premise is the old creationist argument that organisms appeared simultaneously and have remained largely unchanged ever since. Pandas says of the fossil record that "fully formed organisms appear all at once, separated by distinct gaps." That's not exactly true. Different types of organisms appear in a distinct sequence supporting evolution. The first fossils of living organisms, bacteria, appear 3.5 billion years ago, followed two billion years later by algae, the first organisms having true cells with a nucleus containing distinct chromosomes. Then, 600 million years ago, we see the appearance of rudimentary animals with shells, and many soft-bodied marine organisms. Later, in the Cambrian period, about 543 million years ago, a number of groups arose in a relatively short period of time, the so-called "Cambrian explosion." ("Short period" here means geologically short, in this case 10 million to 30 million years). The Cambrian groups include mollusks, starfish, arthropods, worms, and chordates (including vertebrates). And in some cases, such as worms, modern groups do not just spring into being, but increase in complexity over millions of years.

Creationists have always made much of the "Cambrian explosion," and IDers are no exception. The relatively sudden appearance of many groups seems to support the Genesis view of creation. But IDers--and Pandas--fail to emphasize several facts. First, the Cambrian explosion was not "sudden"; it took many millions of years. (We still do not understand why many groups originated in even this relatively short time, although it may reflect an artifact: the evolution of easily fossilized hard parts suddenly made organisms capable of being fossilized.) Moreover, the species of the Cambrian are no longer with us, though their descendants are. But over time, nearly every species that ever lived (more than 99 percent of them) has gone extinct without leaving descendants. Finally, many animals and plants do not show up as fossils until well after the Cambrian explosion: bony fishes and land plants first appeared around 440 million years ago, reptiles around 350 million years ago, mammals around 250 million years ago, flowering plants around 210 million years ago, and human ancestors around 5 million years ago. The staggered appearance of groups that become very different over the next 500 million years gives no support to the notion of instantaneously created species that thereafter remain largely unchanged. If this record does reflect the exertions of an intelligent designer, he was apparently dissatisfied with nearly all of his creations, repeatedly destroying them and creating a new set of species that just happened to resemble descendants of those that he had destroyed.

Pandas also makes much of the supposed absence of transitional forms: the "missing" links between major forms of life that, according to evolutionary theory, must have existed as common ancestors. Their absence, claim creationists, is a major embarrassment for evolutionary biology. Phillip Johnson's influential book Darwin on Trial, which appeared in 1993, particularly emphasizes these gaps, which, IDers believe, reflect the designer's creation of major forms ex nihilo. And there are indeed some animals, such as bats, that appear in the fossil record suddenly, without obvious ancestors. Yet in most cases these gaps are certainly due to the imperfection of the fossil record. (Most organisms do not get buried in aquatic sediments, which is a prerequisite for fossilization.) And species that are soft-bodied or have fragile bones, such as bats, degrade before they can fossilize. Paleontologists estimate that we have fossils representing only about one in a thousand of all the species that ever lived.

In its treatment of evolutionary transitions, Pandas is again guilty of distortion. Paleontologists have uncovered many transitional forms between major groups, almost more than we have a right to expect. Pandas simply ignores--or waves away--these "non-missing links," stating that "we cannot form a smooth, unambiguous transitional series linking, let's say, the first small horse to today's horse, fishes to amphibians, or reptiles to mammals." This is flatly wrong. All three cited transitions (and others) are well documented with fossils. Moreover, the transitional forms appear at exactly the right time in the fossil record: after the ancestral forms already existed, but before the "linked" later group had evolved.

Take one example: the link between early reptiles and later mammals, the so-called mammal-like reptiles. Three hundred fifty million years ago, the world was full of reptiles, but there were no mammals. By 250 million years ago, mammals had appeared on the scene. (Fossil reptiles are easily distinguished from fossil mammals by a complex of skeletal traits including features of the teeth and skull.) Around 275 million years ago, forms appear that are intermediate in skeletal traits between reptiles and mammals, in some cases so intermediate that the animals cannot be unambiguously classified as either reptiles or mammals. These mammal-like reptiles, which become less reptilian and more mammalian with time, are the no-longer-missing links between the two forms, important not only because they have the traits of both forms, but also because they occur at exactly the right time.

One of these traits is worth examining in detail because it is among the finest examples of an evolutionary transition. This trait is the "chewing" hinge where the jaw meets the skull. In early reptiles (and their modern reptilian descendants), the lower jaw comprises several bones, and the hinge is formed by the quadrate bone of the skull and the articular bone of the jaw. As mammal-like reptiles become more mammalian, these hinge bones become smaller, and ultimately the jaw hinge shifts to a different pair of bones: the dentary (our "jawbone") and the squamosal, another bone of the skull. (The quadrate and articular, much reduced, moved into the middle ear of mammals, forming two of the bones that transmit sounds from the eardrum to the middle ear.) The dentary-squamosal articulation occurs in all modern mammals, the quadrate-articular in modern reptiles; and this difference is often used as the defining feature of these groups.

Like earlier creationist tracts, Pandas simply denies that this evolution of the jaw hinge occurred. It asserts that "there is no fossil record of such an amazing process," and further notes that such a migration would be "extraordinary." This echoes the old creationist argument that an adaptive transition from one type of hinge to another by means of natural selection would be impossible: members of a species could not eat during the evolutionary period when their jaws were being unhinged and then rehinged. (The implication is that the intelligent designer must have done this job instantaneously and miraculously.) But we have long known how this transition happened. It was easily accomplished by natural selection. In 1958, Alfred Crompton described the critical fossil: the mammal-like reptile Diarthrognathus broomi. D. broomi has, in fact, a double jaw joint with two hinges--the reptilian one and the mammalian one! Obviously, this animal could chew. What better "missing link" could we find?

It should embarrass IDers that so many of the missing links cited by Pandas as evidence for supernatural intervention are no longer missing. Creationists make a serious mistake when using the absence of transitional forms as evidence for an intelligent designer. In the last decade, paleontologists have uncovered a fairly complete evolutionary series of whales, beginning with fully terrestrial animals that became more and more aquatic over time, with their front limbs evolving into flippers and their hind limbs and pelvis gradually reduced to tiny vestiges. When such fossils are found, as they often are, creationists must then punt and change their emphasis to other missing links, continually retreating before the advance of science.

As for other transitional forms, IDers simply dismiss them as aberrant fossils. Pandas characterizes Homo erectus and other probable human ancestors as "little more than apes." But this is false. While H. erectus has a skull with large brow ridges and a braincase much smaller than ours, the rest of its skeleton is nearly identical to that of modern humans.The famous fossil Archaeopteryx, a small dinosaur-like creature with teeth and a basically reptilian skeleton but also with wings and feathers, is probably on or closely related to the line of dinosaurs that evolved into birds. But Pandas dismisses this fossil as just an "odd-ball" type, and laments instead the lack of the unfossilizable: "If only we could find a fossil showing scales developing the properties of feathers, or lungs that were intermediate between the very different reptilian and avian lungs, then we would have more to go on." It is again a typical creationist strategy that when skeletons of missing links turn up, creationists ignore them and insist that evidence of intermediacy be sought instead in the soft parts that rarely fossilize. In sum, the treatment of the fossil evidence for evolution in Pandas is shoddy and deceptive, and offers no advance over the discredited arguments of scientific creationism.

In contrast to its long treatment and dismissal of the fossil record, Pandas barely deals with evidence for evolution from development and vestigial traits. The best it can do is note that vestigial features can have a function, and therefore are not really vestigial. The vestigial pelvic bones and legs of the transitional whale Basilosaurus, which were not connected to the skeleton, may have functioned as a guide for the penis during mating. Such a use, according to the authors of Pandas, means that the legs and pelvis "were not vestigial as originally thought." But this argument is wrong: no evolutionist denies that the remnants of ancestral traits can retain some functionality or be co-opted for other uses. The "penis guide" has every bone in the mammalian pelvis and rear leg in reduced form--femur, tibia, fibula, and digits. In Basilosaurus, nearly all of these structures lay within the body wall, and most parts were immobile. Apparently the intelligent designer had a whimsical streak, choosing to construct a sex aid that looked exactly like a degenerate pelvis and set of hind limbs.

And what about the strong evidence for evolution from biogeography? About this Pandas, like all creationist books, says nothing. The omission is strategic. It would be very hard for IDers to give plausible reasons why an "intelligent" designer stocked oceanic islands with only a few types of animals and plants--and just those types with the ability to disperse from the nearest mainland. Biogeography has always been the Achilles' heel of creationists, so they just ignore it.

IV.

Although intelligent design rejects much of the evidence for evolution, it still admits that some evolutionary change occurs through natural selection. This change is what Pandas calls "microevolution," or "small scale genetic changes, observable in organisms." Such microevolutionary changes include the evolution of antibiotic resistance in bacteria, changes in the proportion of different-colored moths due to predation by birds, and all changes wrought by artificial selection. But Pandas hastens to add that microevolution gives no evidence for the origin of diverse types of organisms, because "these limited changes do not accumulate the way Darwinian evolutionary theory requires in order to produce macro changes. The process that produces macroevolutionary changes [defined here as "large scale changes, leading to new levels of complexity"] must be different from any that geneticists have studied so far."

So, though one can use selection to transform a wolf into either a Chihuahua or a St. Bernard, that is merely microevolution: they are all still dogs. And a DDT-resistant fly is still a fly. Pandas thus echoes the ID assertion that natural selection cannot do more than create microevolutionary changes: "It cannot produce new characteristics. It only acts on traits that already exist." But this is specious reasoning. As we have noted, fossils already show that "macro change," as defined by Pandas, has occurred in the fossil record (the evolution of fish into amphibians, and so on). And if breeders have not turned a dog into another kind of animal, it is because dog breeding has been going on for only a few thousand years, while the differences between dogs and cats, for example, have evolved over more than ten million years. No principle of evolution dictates that evolutionary changes observed during a human lifetime cannot be extrapolated to much longer periods.

In fact, Pandas admits that the fruit flies of Hawaii--a diverse group of more than 300 species--have all evolved from a common ancestor. We now know that this common ancestor lived about 20 million years ago. The species of Hawaiian flies differ in many traits, including size, shape, ecology, color pattern, mating behavior, and so on. One can in fact make a good case that some of the fly species differ more from each other than humans differ from chimps. Why, then, do IDers assert that chimps and humans (whose ancestor lived only 5 million years ago) must have resulted from separate acts of creation by the intelligent designer, while admitting that fruit flies evolved from a common ancestor that lived 20 million years ago? The answer is that humans must at all costs not be lumped in with other species, so as to protect the biblical status of humans as uniquely created in God's image.

According to Pandas, the theory of "limits to evolution" is a scientific one: "The idea of intelligent design does not preclude the possibility that variation within species occurs, or that new species are formed from existing populations . . . the theory of intelligent design does suggest that there are limits to the amount of variation that natural selection and random change mechanisms can produce." But there is nothing in the theory of intelligent design that tells us how far evolution can go. This "thus far and no further" view of evolution comes not from any scientific findings of ID; it comes from ID's ancestor, scientific creationism. Scientific Creationism notes that "the creation model . . . recognizes only the kind as the basic created unit, in this case, mankind," and a chart contrasting evolution with the "creation model" says that the former predicts "new kinds appearing," while the latter says "no new kinds appearing."

But what is a "kind"? No creationist has ever defined it, though they are all very sure that humans and apes are different "kinds." In fact, the notion that evolution and creation have operated together, with the latter creating distinct "kinds," was nicely rebutted by Darwin in On the Origin of Species:

Several eminent naturalists . . . admit that they [evolved species] have been produced by variation, but they refuse to extend the same view to other and very slightly different forms. Nevertheless they do not pretend that they can define, or even conjecture, which are the created forms of life, and which are those produced by secondary laws. They admit variation as a vera causa in one case, they arbitrarily reject it in another, without assigning any distinction in the two cases. The day will come when this will be given as a curious illustration of the blindness of preconceived opinion. These authors seem no more startled at a miraculous act of creation than at an ordinary birth. But do they really believe that at innumerable periods in the earth's history certain elemental atoms have been commanded suddenly to flash into living tissues? Do they believe that at each supposed act of creation one individual or many were produced? Were all the infinitely numerous kinds of animals and plants created as egg or seed, or as full grown? and in the case of mammals, were they created bearing the false marks of nourishment from the mother's womb? Although naturalists very properly demand a full explanation of every difficulty from those who believe in the mutability of species, on their own side they ignore the whole subject of the first appearance of species in what they consider reverent silence.

In fact, the biblical appendix of Scientific Creationism shows that the term "kind" derives from the biblical notion of created kinds:

The Scriptures are very clear in their teaching that God created all things as He wanted them to be, each with its own particular structure, according to His own sovereign purposes. The account of Genesis 1, for example, indicates that at least ten major categories of organic life were specially created "after his kind." . . . Finally, man "kind" was created as another completely separate category. The phrase "after his kind" occurs ten times in this first chapter of Genesis.

There is thus a clear line of descent from the story of Genesis to the ID notion of evolutionary limits, a line charted by what Darwin called "the blindness of preconceived opinion." Until IDers tell us what the limits to evolution are, how they can be ascertained, and what evidence supports these limits, this notion cannot be regarded as a genuinely scientific claim.

Bee
(continued)

V.

Ders make one claim that they tout as truly novel, a claim that has become quite popular. It is the idea that organisms show some adaptations that could not be built by natural selection, thus implying the need for a supernatural creative force such as an intelligent designer. These adaptations share a property called "irreducible complexity," a characteristic discussed in Pandas but defined more explicitly by Michael Behe in 1996 in his book Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution: "By irreducibly complex I mean a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning."

Many man-made objects show this property: Behe cites the mousetrap, which would not work if even one part were removed, such as the catch, the spring, the base, and so on. Pandas mentions a car engine, which will not work if one removes the fan belt, spark plugs, distributor cap, or any of numerous individual parts. A famous example of an irreducibly complex system in the biological realm is the "camera" eye of humans and other vertebrates. The eye has many parts whose individual removal would render the organ useless, including the lens, retina, and optic nerve.

The reason IDers love "irreducibly complex" features of organisms is that natural selection is powerless (or so they claim) to create such features. As Behe notes:

An irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly ... by slight, successive modifications of a precursor system, because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional.... Since natural selection can only choose systems that are already working, then if a biological system cannot be produced gradually it would have to arise as an integrated unit, in one fell swoop, for natural selection to have anything to act on.

"One fell swoop," of course, implies that the feature must have been produced by the miraculous intervention of the intelligent designer.

But this argument for intelligent design has a fatal flaw. We have realized for decades that natural selection can indeed produce systems that, over time, become integrated to the point where they appear to be irreducibly complex. But these features do not evolve by the sequential addition of parts to a feature that becomes functional only at the end. They evolve by adding, via natural selection, more and more parts into an originally rudimentary but functional system, with these parts sometimes co-opted from other structures. Every step of this process improves the organism's survival, and so is evolutionarily possible via natural selection.

Consider the eye. Creationists have long maintained that it could not have resulted from natural selection, citing a sentence from On the Origin of Species: "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." But in the next passage, invariably omitted by creationists, Darwin ingeniously answers his own objection:

Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.

Thus our eyes did not suddenly appear as full-fledged camera eyes, but evolved from simpler eyes, having fewer components, in ancestral species. Darwin brilliantly addressed this argument by surveying existing species to see if one could find functional but less complex eyes that not only were useful, but also could be strung together into a hypothetical sequence showing how a camera eye might evolve. If this could be done--and it can--then the argument for irreducible complexity vanishes, for the eyes of existing species are obviously useful, and each step in the hypothetical sequence could thus evolve by natural selection.

A possible sequence of such changes begins with pigmented eye spots (as seen in flatworms), followed by an invagination of the skin to form a cup protecting the eyespot and allowing it to better localize the image (as in limpets), followed by a further narrowing of the cup's opening to produce an improved image (the nautilus), followed by the evolution of a protective transparent cover to protect the opening (ragworms), followed by coagulation of part of the fluid in the eyeball into a lens to help focus the light (abalones), followed by the co-opting of nearby muscles to move the lens and vary the focus (mammals). The evolution of a retina, an optic nerve, and so on would follow by natural selection. Each step of this transitional "series" confers increased adaptation on its possessor, because it enables the animal to gather more light or to form better images, both of which aid survival. And each step of this process is exemplified by the eye of a different living species. At the end of the sequence we have the camera eye, which seems irreducibly complex. But the complexity is reducible to a series of small, adaptive steps.

Now, we do not know the precise order in which the components of the camera eye evolved--but the point is that the appearance of "irreducible complexity" cannot be an argument against neo-Darwinism if we can document a plausible sequence in which the complexity can arise from a series of adaptive steps. The "irreducible complexity" argument is not, in fact, completely novel. It descends, with modification, from the British theologian William Paley, who in 1802 raised the famous "argument from design" in his book Natural Theology. Paley argued that just as finding a watch on the ground implies a conscious designer (the watchmaker), so finding an equally complex organism implies a cosmic designer (God).

But the eye is not a watch. The human eye, though eminently functional, is imperfect--certainly not the sort of eye an engineer would create from scratch. Its imperfection arises precisely because our eye evolved using whatever components were at hand, or produced by mutation. Since our retina evolved from an everted part of the brain, for example, the nerves and blood vessels that attach to our photoreceptor cells are on the inside rather than the outside of the eye, running over the surface of the retina. Leakage of these blood vessels can occlude vision, a problem that would not occur if the vessels fed the retina from behind. Likewise, to get the nerve impulses from the photocells to the brain, the different nerves must join together and dive back through the eye, forming the optic nerve. This hole in the retina creates a blind spot in the eye, a flaw that again would be avoidable with a priori design. The whole system is like a car in which all the wires to the dashboard hang inside the driver's compartment instead of being tucked safely out of sight. Evolution differs from a priori design because it is constrained to operate by modifying whatever features have evolved previously. Thus evolution yields fitter types that often have flaws. These flaws violate reasonable principles of intelligent design.

IDers tend to concentrate more on biochemistry than on organs such as the eye, citing "irreducibly complex" molecular systems such as the mechanism for blood-clotting and the immune system. Like the eye, these systems supposedly could not have evolved, since removal of any step in these pathways would render the entire pathway non-functional. (This biochemical complexity is the subject of Behe's book Darwin's Black Box.) Discussing the blood-clotting system in its sixth chapter (partially written by Behe), Pandas asserts that "like a car engine, biological systems can only work after they have been assembled by someone who knows what the final result will be." This is nonsense. As we have seen in the case of the eye, biological systems are not useful only at the end of a long evolutionary process, but during every step of that process. And biochemical systems--like all adaptations created by natural selection--are not assembled with foresight. Whatever useful mutations happen to arise get folded into the system.

There is no doubt that many biochemical systems are dauntingly complex. A diagram of the blood-clotting pathway looks like a complicated circuit board, with dozens of proteins interacting with one another to one end: healing a wound. And the system seems irreducibly complex, because without any of several key proteins, the blood would not clot. Yet such biochemical systems evolved in the same way that the eye evolved, by adding parts successively and adaptively to simpler, functioning systems. It is more difficult to trace the evolution of biochemical pathways than of anatomical structures because the ancestral metabolic pathways are no longer present. But biologists are beginning to provide plausible scenarios for how "irreducibly complex" biochemical pathways might have evolved. As expected, these systems involve using bits co-opted from other pathways originally having different functions. (Thus, one of the enzymes in the blood-clotting system also plays a role in digestion and cell division.) In view of our progress in understanding biochemical evolution, it is simply irrational to say that because we do not completely understand how biochemical pathways evolved, we should give up trying and invoke the intelligent designer. If the history of science shows us anything, it is that we get nowhere by labeling our ignorance "God."

VI.

Insofar as intelligent-design theory can be tested scientifically, it has been falsified. Organisms simply do not look as if they had been intelligently designed. Would an intelligent designer create millions of species and then make them go extinct, only to replace them with other species, repeating this process over and over again? Would an intelligent designer produce animals having a mixture of mammalian and reptilian traits, at exactly the time when reptiles are thought to have been evolving into mammals? Why did the designer give tiny, non-functional wings to kiwi birds? Or useless eyes to cave animals? Or a transitory coat of hair to a human fetus? Or an appendix, an injurious organ that just happens to resemble a vestigial version of a digestive pouch in related organisms? Why would the designer give us a pathway for making vitamin C, but then destroy it by disabling one of its enzymes? Why didn't the intelligent designer stock oceanic islands with reptiles, mammals, amphibians, and freshwater fish, despite the suitability of such islands for these species? And why would he make the flora and fauna on those islands resemble that of the nearest mainland, even when the environments are very different? Why, about a million years ago, would the designer produce creatures that have an apelike cranium perched atop a humanlike skeleton? And why would he then successively replace these creatures with others having an ever-closer resemblance to modern humans?

There are only two answers to these questions: either life resulted not from intelligent design, but from evolution; or the intelligent designer is a cosmic prankster who designed everything to make it look as though it had evolved. Few people, religious or otherwise, will find the second alternative palatable. It is the modern version of the old argument that God put fossils in the rocks to test our faith.

The final blow to the claim that intelligent design is scientific is its proponents' admission that we cannot understand the designer's goals or methods. Behe owns up to this in Darwin's Black Box: "Features that strike us as odd in a design might have been placed there by the designer for a reason--for artistic reasons, to show off, for some as-yetundetectable practical purpose, or for some unguessable reason--or they might not." And, discussing skeletal differences between placental and marsupial mammals, Pandas notes:

Why were not the North American placentals given the same bones? Would an intelligent designer withhold these structures from placentals if they were superior to the placental system? At present we do not know; however, we all recognize that an engineer can choose any of several different engineering solutions to overcome a single design problem. An intelligent designer might reasonably be expected to use a variety (if a limited variety) of design approaches to produce a single engineering solution, also. Even if it is assumed that an intelligent designer did indeed have a good reason for every decision that was made, and for including every trait in each organism, it does not follow that such reasons will be obvious to us.

Well, if we admit that the designer had a number of means and motives, which can be self-contradictory, arbitrary, improvisatory, and "unguessable," then we are left with a theory that cannot be rejected. Every conceivable observation of nature, including those that support evolution, becomes compatible with ID, for the ways of the designer are unfathomable. And a theory that cannot be rejected is not a scientific theory. If IDers want to have a genuinely scientific theory, let them propose a model that can be rigorously tested.

Given its lack of rigor, one might expect that ID theory would not inspire much scientific research. And there is virtually none. Despite the claims of ID to be a program of research, its adherents have published only one refereed paper supporting ID in a scientific journal: a review of ID by Stephen C. Meyer, the director of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture, which appeared in the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington. This paper merely rehashes ID arguments for why natural selection and evolution cannot explain the diversity of life and then asserts that intelligent design is the only alternative. It distorts the evolutionary literature it purports to review, and it neither advances new scientific arguments nor suggests any way that ID better explains patterns in nature. Not surprisingly, the Council of the Biological Society of Washington later disowned the paper because it did "not meet the scientific standards of the Proceedings."

The gold standard for modern scientific achievement is the publication of new results in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. By that standard, IDers have failed miserably. As William Dembski himself noted, "There are good and bad reasons to be skeptical of intelligent design. Perhaps the best reason is that intelligent design has yet to establish itself as a thriving scientific research program." IDers desperately crave scientific respectability, but it is their own theory that prevents them from attaining it. Thus, while IDers demand that evolutionists produce thousands of transitional fossils and hundreds of detailed scenarios about the evolution of biochemical pathways, they put forth no observations supporting the plausibility of a supernatural designer, nor do they show how appeal to such a designer could explain the fossil record, embryology, and biogeography better than neo-Darwinism. Herbert Spencer could have been describing ID when he declared that "those who cavalierly reject the Theory of Evolution as not being adequately supported by facts, seem to forget that their own theory is supported by no facts at all. Like the majority of men who are born to a given belief, they demand the most rigorous proof of any adverse belief, but assume that their own needs none."

Finally, the reliance of ID on supernatural intervention means that the enterprise cannot be seen, strictly speaking, as scientific. In his rejection of scientific creationism in McLean v. Arkansas, Judge Overton described the characteristics of good science:


(1) It is guided by natural law;

(2) It has to be explanatory by reference to natural law;

(3) It is testable against the empirical world;

(4) Its conclusions are tentative, i.e., are not necessarily the final word; and

(5) It is falsifiable.

By invoking the repeated occurrence of supernatural intervention by an intelligent designer to create new species and new traits, ID violates criteria 1 and 2; and in its ultimate reliance on Christian dogma and God, it violates criteria 3, 4, and 5.


In candid moments, usually when writing for or speaking to a religious audience, IDers admit the existence not only of supernatural acts as a part of their theory, but also of Christian supernatural acts. In a foreword to a book on creationism, Johnson wrote: "The intelligent design movement starts with the recognition that 'In the beginning was the Word,' and 'In the beginning God created.' Establishing that point isn't enough, but it is absolutely essential to the rest of the gospel message." And here is Dembski writing in Touchstone, a Christian magazine: "The world is a mirror representing the divine life.... Intelligent design readily embraces the sacramental nature of physical reality. Indeed intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory." Indeed, in the manuscript draft of the first edition of Pandas, the terms "creationism," "creationist," and "creation" are used repeatedly instead of the equivalent ID terms, and "creationism" is defined identically to "intelligent design" in the published version. Nothing gives a clearer indication that one ancestor of this textbook was the Bible.

It is clear, then, that intelligent design did not arise because of some long-standing problems with evolutionary theory, or because new facts have called neoDarwinism into question. ID is here for only one reason--to act as a Trojan horse poised before the public schools: a seemingly secular vessel ready to inject its religious message into the science curriculum. The contents of Pandas, and of the other writings of IDers, are simply a cunning pedagogical ploy to circumvent legal restrictions against religious creationism. (With any luck, though, the publicity will backfire. Last month The York Dispatch in Pennsylvania reported that the Foundation for Thought and Ethics, the group that publishes this textbook and others designed to present "a Christian perspective," wanted to intervene in the Dover lawsuit. According to John Buell, the foundation's president, the association of ID with creationism "would make the book radioactive," and his outfit could lose as much as $525,000 in sales.)

ID is part of what Johnson candidly calls the "wedge strategy," a carefully crafted scheme that begins with the adoption of intelligent design as an alternative theory to evolution, after which ID will edge out evolution until it is the only view left, after which it will become full-blown biblical creationism. The ultimate goal is to replace naturalist science with spiritualist thinking, and the method is to hammer the wedge of ID into science at its most vulnerable point: public education. In Johnson's own words:

So the question is: "How to win?" That's when I began to develop what you now see full-fledged in the "wedge" strategy: "stick with the most important thing," the mechanism and the building up of information. Get the Bible and the Book of Genesis out of the debate because you do not want to raise the so-called Bible-science dichotomy. Phrase the argument in such a way that you can get it heard in the secular academy and in a way that tends to unify the religious dissenters. That means concentrating on, "Do you need a Creator to do the creating, or can nature do it on its own?" and refusing to get sidetracked onto other issues, which people are always trying to do.

Johnson was even more explicit in 1999 in remarks to a conference on "Reclaiming America for Christ." Rob Boston reported Johnson's remarks in Church & State magazine:

Johnson calls his movement "The Wedge." The objective, he said, is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism v. evolution to the existence of God v. the nonexistence of God. From there people are introduced to "the truth" of the Bible and then "the question of sin" and finally "introduced to Jesus."

Other major figures in the ID movement have been equally clear about their religious motivations. Here is Dembski:

But there are deeper motivations. I think at a fundamental level, in terms of what drives me in this is that I think God's glory is being robbed by these naturalistic approaches to biological evolution, creation, the origin of the world, the origin of biological complexity and diversity. When you are attributing the wonders of nature to these mindless material mechanisms, God's glory is getting robbed.

And here is Jonathan Wells, a member of Reverend Moon's Unification Church:

Father's [Reverend Moon's] words, my studies, and my prayers convinced me that I should devote my life to destroying Darwinism, just as many of my fellow Unificationists had already devoted their lives to destroying Marxism. When Father chose me (along with about a dozen other seminary graduates) to enter a Ph.D. program in 1978, I welcomed the opportunity to prepare myself for battle.

Do these people really believe in intelligent design? There is no reason to think otherwise. They are not lying for their cause, but sincerely hold that life on earth reflects a succession of miracles worked by a supernatural agent. In fact, they view evolutionists as the duplicitous ones. In an interview in The Sacramento Bee in 1991, Johnson proclaimed that "scientists have long known that Darwinism is false. They have adhered to the myth out of self-interest and a zealous desire to put down God." Never mind that many scientists, including evolutionists, are religious.

Given the overwhelming evidence for evolution and the lack of evidence for ID, how can intelligent people hold such views? Is their faith so strong that it blinds them to all evidence? It is a bit more complicated than that. After all, many theologians and religious people accept evolution. The real issues behind intelligent design--and much of creationism--are purpose and morality: specifically, the fear that if evolution is true, then we are no different from other animals, not the special objects of God's creation but a contingent product of natural selection, and so we lack real purpose, and our morality is just the law of the jungle. Tom DeLay furnished a colorful example of this view on the floor of the House of Representatives on June 16, 1999. Explaining the causes of the massacre at Columbine High School, he read a sarcastic letter in a Texas newspaper that suggested that "it couldn't have been because our school systems teach the children that they are nothing but glorified apes who have evolutionized out of some primordial soup of mud."

The notion that naturalism and materialism are the enemies of morality and a sense of human purpose, and that religion is their only ally, is pervasive in the writings of IDers. As Johnson noted, "Once God is culturally determined to be imaginary, then God's morality loses its foundation and withers away." Nancy Pearcey, a senior fellow of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture, summarizes why evolution disturbs so many Americans:

Why does the public care so passionately about a theory of biology? Because people sense intuitively that there's much more at stake than a scientific theory. They know that when naturalistic evolution is taught in the science classroom, then a naturalistic view of ethics will be taught down the hallway in the history classroom, the sociology classroom, the family life classroom, and in all areas of the curriculum.

Even some parents in Dover, though opposed to teaching ID in school, worry that learning evolution will erode the Christian values that they are trying to instill in their children.

But the acceptance of evolution need not efface morality or purpose. Evolution is simply a theory about the process and patterns of life's diversification, not a grand philosophical scheme about the meaning of life. Philosophers have argued for years about whether ethics should have a basis in nature. There is certainly no logical connection between evolution and immorality. Nor is there a causal connection: in Europe, religion is far less pervasive than in America, and belief in evolution is more widespread, but somehow the continent remains civilized. Most religious scientists, laymen, and theologians have not found the acceptance of evolution to impede living an upright, meaningful life. And the idea that religion provides the sole foundation for meaning and morality also cannot be right: the world is full of skeptics, agnostics, and atheists who live good and meaningful lives.

Barring a miracle, the Dover Area School District will lose its case. Anyone who bothers to study ID and its evolution from earlier and more overtly religious forms of creationism will find it an unscientific, faith-based theory ultimately resting on the doctrines of fundamentalist Christianity. Its presentation in schools thus violates both the Constitution and the principles of good education. There is no secular reason why evolutionary biology, among all the sciences, should be singled out for a school-mandated disclaimer. But the real losers will be the people of Dover, who will likely be saddled with huge legal bills and either a substantial cut in the school budget or a substantial hike in property taxes. We can also expect that, if they lose, the IDers will re-group and return in a new disguise even less obviously religious. I await the formation of the Right to Teach Problems with Evolution Movement.

IDers have been helped by Americans' continuing doubts about the truth of evolution. According to a Gallup poll taken last year, 45 percent of Americans agree with the statement, "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years." Asked if evolution is well supported by evidence, 35 percent of Americans said yes, 35 percent said no, and 29 percent said they lack the knowledge to reply. As a rationalist, I cannot help but believe that the first group would swell were Americans to be thoroughly taught the evidence for evolution, which is rarely done in public high schools. I have seen creationist students become evolutionists when they learn about biogeography or examine the skulls of mammal-like reptiles. What we need in the schools is not less teaching of evolution but more.

In the end, many Americans may still reject evolution, finding the creationist alternative psychologically more comfortable. But emotion should be distinguished from thought, and a "comfort level" should not affect what is taught in the science classroom. As Judge Overton wrote in his magisterial decision striking down Arkansas Act 590, which mandated equal classroom time for "scientific creationism":

The application and content of First Amendment principles are not determined by public opinion polls or by a majority vote. Whether the proponents of Act 590 constitute the majority or the minority is quite irrelevant under a constitutional system of government. No group, no matter how large or small, may use the organs of government, of which the public schools are the most conspicuous and influential, to foist its religious beliefs on others.

Jerry Coyne is a professor in the Department of Ecology and Evolution at the University of Chicago.
SherryB
Since I've been older I really questioned my "Christian" faith and more or less discounted the Bible as anything other than a historical book. Too many revisions, alterations, translations, etc. to be able to figure out what exactly was the "truth".

Reggie White was a Rev. and star football player. Before his death at a fairly young age he had turned against "Christianity" saying he would never again preach what he had been taught. He had been studying the language the Bible had been written in and he said all he had been preaching were "traditions" not "the truth".

Theology Thursdays: Dead Sea Scrolls, Prophecy and Messiah XIX



"I was deeply touched this past Super Bowl Sunday by ESPN’s airing of a special feature on the last days of the late NFL great Reggie White. The segment which aired during the all-sports network's "Sunday NFL Countdown," was hosted by Andrea Kremer. It was poignant to me not only because of the way it captured the pain and strength of Mr. White’s widow and his surviving son, Jeremy, but also because of its chronicling of the journey that Reggie White’s spiritual life took, during and after his football career. As a Philadelphia Eagle football fan I was very well acquainted with Rev. Reggie White’s strong religious expressions but after he left to play for the Green Bay Packers, I did not much hear about Reggie White and his faith except for some controversy in the media over statements he made.

What I did not know, and which ESPN’s special made vividly clear was that for the past few years, Reggie White had begun to question elements of his religious beliefs and practices in extraordinary ways and had decided to discontinue his work in public ministry. According to reports Mr. White had “become a religious scholar of sorts, studying the Old Testament and the Torah”. He reportedly stated in a Fox Sports Net’s "Behind The Glory" profile, "I don't want to have nothing to do with Christianity. I do want to have something to do with the Jewish Messiah who died for my sins, but I don't want to have nothing to do with Christianity."

His new position and his studies, which eventually included 10 hours a day of learning Hebrew (under the guidance of Nehemiah Gordon) and studying the Torah, caused many of his friends to believe he was converting to Judaism or had become a heretic. Reggie White maintained, in interview footage in the special, that he was not converting to Judaism, but that rather, he was seeking to get closer to God. He mentioned that he believes a problem he experienced and witnessed in religion was the teaching of tradition as opposed to an emphasis placed foremost on the scriptures. He said he would never tell another person that God had spoken to him, unless he could know for sure from the original scriptures what God’s words were. In one portion of the special he explains that he believed he would know the Son better, if he knew the Father. It was clear to me, that from his perspective, he saw his relationship to the Messiah deepening from a study of Jehovah.

The show brought to mind several things. I first thought of numerous friends of mine, from childhood and more recently, some of whom are Black Christian Pastors, who have dedicated their lives to a fervent study of the scriptures, religion and theology. I also thought of this portion of what I wrote in Part XVIII of this series:

Over the last 15 years I have personally noticed an "explosion" in the supply and demand of Bible translations, concordances, apocrypha, study commentaries, historical narratives, and word origin books among Black Christians. I personally know directly or indirectly several Black preachers who have invested hundreds, if not thousands of dollars in these reference materials. Why? What is it that these Black Christian teachers are going after or pursuing as they look at different translations of the Bible, dissect words translated in English in search of their meanings in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek or when they read and intensely study commentaries, written by other men, about certain passages in the Old and New Testament? Are these Black Christians in their fervent study not essentially working to overcome a knowledge deficit that, for their people, uniquely began with the trans-Atlantic slave trade and an especially brutal period of mistreatement and miseducation in America?

On the point that Reggie White raised regarding how tradition had taken precedence over the scriptures in the religious beliefs and practices of many; I reflected over several verses of the Holy Qur’an that depict and warn about how the simple maintenance of inherited practices and the continuation of tradition for tradition’s sake affects our ability to accept reasonable presentations and invitations of others. I thought of how the prophets and warners are written to have been rejected because of the narrow mindedness of the people and their emotional attachments to religious tradition. Verses in two particular Surahs (Chapters) of the Qur’an stuck with me. They read (Yusuf Ali translation):

22. Nay! they say: "We found our fathers following a certain religion, and we do guide ourselves by their footsteps."

23. Just in the same way, whenever We sent a Warner before thee to any people, the wealthy ones among them said: "We found our fathers following a certain religion, and we will certainly follow in their footsteps."

24. He said: "What! Even if I brought you better guidance than that which ye found your fathers following?" They said: "For us, we deny that ye (prophets) are sent (on a mission at all)."

Surah 2 verse 170 succinctly expresses this dynamic:

170. When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?

Now, mentally try to place the history of Black Americans into these two quoted versions of Verses from the Qur’an. In Surah 43:23 consider how hard it would be for wealthy Americans to accept a divine warner sent to them from God, particularly if that person challenged the religious traditions that they had grown accustomed to and even institutionalized in their society. Imagine if that warner was from among the non-wealthy group of Americans.

In Surah 2:170 think of Black people in terms of those whose ancestors were “void of wisdom and guidance”. Not primarily through any original doing of their own, but because of the institution of slavery and their being stripped of everything including the knowledge of themselves, and their subsequent miseducation and misguidance. Then, a divine warner is sent to them who challenges their most deeply held emotional attachments to traditions which they have inherited – political, dietary and social. But give the closest attention to this group’s religious traditions, which they “inherited” from their fathers who were forced and made to accept them from others. Thinking of Reggie White’s apparently intense scrutiny of tradition and his investigation into scripture and language made me think of another portion of what I wrote on July 22, 2004, in Part XVIII of this series:

For the moment, think in terms of the history of Black people living in America and their interaction with the subject of religion and theology.

There are Black scholars and professors who teach at major universities throughout America who have written extensively about how Black people taken from Africa (of various belief systems) were systematically influenced to accept Christianity, primarily as it was taught to them by White slave masters and preachers. (When I was in college I read an interesting book on the subject called, Slave Religion: The Invisible Institution In Antebellum South). But where did these Whites gain their understanding of the Bible?

Generally speaking they received their religion and most of the theological basis that undergirds it from other Whites living in Europe. One can study the process that resulted in the King James translation of the Bible, and the drama and intrigue surrounding John Wycliffe’s translation of the Bible into English to learn important details regarding how the religious establishment in Europe handled the Bible and the education of the masses of people into their interpretation of it.

Then, one should study the theological debates between Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans and Episcopalians to learn even more details regarding the various interpretations of writings said to be inspired by the God. These debates and their consequences have had and continue to have serious political, economic, and scientific consequences for the entire world.

The study of the evolution of what is called Christianity, in Europe and how it spread and was taught in America; and how all of that differs in content, from the words of the historical Jesus and what he taught, should all be part of the research process and education of those seeking to understand the Black experience in America and the role of religion in American history.

Now, look at all of this from the perspective of a popular Black Christian Pastor preaching from The King James Bible, on television, about Jesus, whom he or she represents as the Messiah. Where did the ideas, arguments, and statements proclaimed by this prominent Black preacher originate? Some might say that what comes out of his or her mouth originated with the very person speaking. Others may say that the preacher got what he or she is teaching directly from God. Can either of those answers really be proven to any reasonable person?

Now think again of what Reggie White reportedly said: "I don't want to have nothing to do with Christianity. I do want to have something to do with the Jewish Messiah who died for my sins, but I don't want to have nothing to do with Christianity."

Another thing that came to mind while watching the ESPN special, particularly as footage was shown of Reggie White pouring over Hebrew scrolls of the Torah, was that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad made clear that the more accurate meanings of the scriptures that we have today, in English, could be found in the Hebrew and Greek translations. He also taught and included in The Muslim Program, “WE BELIEVE in the truth of the Bible, but we believe that it has been tampered with and must be reinterpreted so that mankind will not be snared by the falsehoods that have been added to it.” In his book Message To The Blackman and to others, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad gave greater details about the languages spoken by the prophets. For example, he wrote that Musa (Moses) spoke ancient Egyptian Arabic, and Isa (Jesus) spoke both Arabic and Hebrew.

Linguistics is the science of language; the study of the structure and development of a particular language and its relationship to other languages. Reggie White was deeply involved in that study and all of us who claim to believe in a writing or scripture that was revealed or authored in a language other than our own are inescapably affected by linguistics. Related to this is this interview excerpt from an article, “Freedom is untangling words and their meaning” by Jabril Muhammad. The article was preceded by the following verses from the Qur'an, "my brother, Aaron, he is more eloquent in speech than I, so send him with me as a helper to confirm me... He said: … We will give you both an authority, so that they shall not reach you. With Our signs, you two and those who follow you, will triumph.” (Holy Qur’an 28:34, 35)":

On December 4, 2004, I asked the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan: By the time you came into the Nation of Islam in 1955, you were already acquainted with the importance, the value and the use of such tools as dictionaries, thesauruses, synonym and antonym books. How did you first use them, even up to the present time?

Minister Farrakhan: Being a student of Latin, you become knowledgeable of suffixes and prefixes. And you become knowledgeable of the root of a word; how the word evolved; what is the origin of that word in terms of its origin, where did it come from. You learn that most English words evolved from either Latin or Greek. The Romance languages are French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and they come out of Latin.

Latin is considered a dead language, but as the Qur’an says, “He brings the living from the dead and the dead from the living.” So if you don’t know something of the dead language, you are missing the understanding of the living languages that are being used today by a great number of people on the planet.

Naturally, the meanings of words, and their shades of meaning are very, very important in developing our communicative skills.

The Honorable Elijah Muhammad one day told me of Clarence Darrow and President Woodrow Wilson, and he said, “The degree of knowledge that they had of the English language was profound.” He said, “That’s why Clarence Darrow never lost a case.” When he told me that, even though I was a baby in English to him in terms of his depth of understanding of the language, he was telling me that when you master words and the various shades of meaning of words, you can take one word and use it as a weapon of offense and you can take the same word with another shade of meaning and use it as a weapon of defense.

So that is why I believe the Saviour, Master Fard Muhammad, said in The Problem Book, “You will not be successful unless you learn to speak the language well.” The entanglement of the people is an entanglement of words, and how they perceive the meaning of those words. So, the freedom of people is the untangling of their understanding or perception of meaning, and giving them a new and better meaning of a word that they think they know or understand. That goes back to the Qur’an in Surah 20 when (Moses) said, “Loosen the knot from my tongue that they may understand my speech.”

So the Word of God that came to the Honorable Elijah Muhammad was a word that was designed to fit the condition of our minds at that time, but a deeper study of that same word would disentangle us from a limited understanding of what we thought we understood when we first heard that word.

So, through the plain language and the metaphorical language—which is the language that uses nature and the creatures of God to describe characteristics of human beings and nations; the forces of nature; the wind; the weather; aspects of zoology; aspects of botany; aspects of anthropology; aspects of meteorology; aspects of physics and chemistry and science—all of this language is used in scripture to couch and hide even truth, as well as to give a mind that is not yet ready for deeper aspects of truth enough to free that mind to start a movement toward the deeper understanding of what God had in mind when He revealed what He revealed.

Brother Jabril: He said to me one day that Master Fard Muhammad told him the number of dialects that both Clarence Darrow and President Woodrow Roosevelt knew of English. The number was around 23 and 22 respectfully, or close that. I just don’t remember the exact number right now. Did he ever mention to you anything like that?

Minister Farrakhan: No. He mentioned to me the degrees of understanding of the language that they both had mastered, which set them apart from their contemporaries in their ability to master language.

Sometimes, Brother Jabril, I didn’t use the dictionary. I would just use what I understood of the prefix, the suffix and the main word if it had a Latin root. Then, I would compare what I saw in the definition, even to what Webster said. Then, sometimes my definitions were deeper and more profound than what was in the dictionary.

Brother Jabril: Now, Brother Minister, that’s getting really deep into the very origin of the word—its very spirit!

****

One of America's Founding Fathers, Charles Thompson, Secretary of the Continental Congress until 1789 and signer of the Declaration Of Independence made the first translation of the Greek Septuagint Bible into English, in a process that took him decades. In a letter written to Rev. Samuel Miller and dated January 6, 1801 he wrote about the standards that guided the process of his translation. He wrote:

"Attached to no system nor peculiar tenets of any sect or party, I have sought for truth with the utmost ingenuity, and endeavored to give a just a true representation of the sense and meaning of the Sacred Scriptures; and in doing this, I have further endeavored to convey into the translation, as far as I could, the spirit and manner of the authors, and thereby give it the quality of an original."

"To translate well is: 1, to convey a just representation of the purpose of an author; 2, to convey into the translation the author's spirit and manner; 3, to give it the quality of an original by making it appear natural, a natural copy without applying words improperly, or in a meaning not warranted by use, or combining them in a way which renders the sense obscure, and the construction ungrammatical or harsh."

Was Brother Reggie White really a religious heretic and a man not following the Messiah in his search for God in the Hebrew language, as some charged?

How many Black Christians know the details of how the King James version of the Bible that they believe in was translated or the process by which the first hand-written English language Bible manuscripts were produced in the 1380s by John Wycliffe, an Oxford professor, scholar, and theologian.

He translated the Bible out of the Latin Vulgate, the only source available to him."



See my problem?? smile.gif


Cedric Muhammad

Thursday, February 17, 2005

http://www.blackelectorate.com/articles.asp?ID=1308
Bee
Sherry, Jefferson felt the same way and wrote his own bible, and took out what he thought were the parts put in by "priests" intent on controlling the masses.

He was fluent in Greek and Latin, it's rather well done (I'm on chapter 8).

You can find it here:

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/index.html
Bee
The Atlantic has made all their articles on evolution available the following is a synopsis, if anyone wants to read a particular article, let me know and I'll fetch it.

QUOTE
Defending Darwin

Articles from 1860 to the present on the conflict between evolution theory and religious fundamentalism
.....

In the coming months, the Kansas school board will determine whether to include a variant of creationist theory based on "intelligent design" in the state's curriculum as a counterpoint to the teaching of evolution. Intelligent design contends that the complexity of organic life cannot be explained without the intervention of a supernatural guiding force and argues that Charles Darwin's theory that contemporary species evolved from earlier ones is flawed.

School boards across America have been hearing many such cases in recent years, but the ebb and flow of anti-evolution forces has been most pronounced of late in Kansas, where in 1999, references to evolution were struck from texts. Since then, evolutionary theory has crept back into the Kansas curriculum, but not without a rider requiring teachers to present Darwin's theory as controversial.

The Atlantic has been commenting on the conflict between evolution theory and religious fundamentalism since Darwin first published his ground-breaking treatise in the nineteenth century. Almost immediately after the debut of The Origin of Species, Asa Gray reviewed the book in "Darwin on the Origin of Species" (July 1860). Gray, a botanist, was intrigued by Darwin's revolutionary new way of thinking about human origins, but given the major discoveries, advances, and upheavals then taking place in the world of science, he professed to be not altogether surprised by it:

Surely the scientific mind of an age which contemplates the solar system as evolved from a common, revolving, fluid mass,—which, through experimental research, has come to regard light, heat, electricity, magnetism, chemical affinity, and mechanical power as varieties or derivative and convertible forms of one force, ... and which speculates steadily in the direction of the ultimate unity of matter, of a sort of prototype or simple element ... the mind of such an age cannot be expected to let the old belief about species pass unquestioned.
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Gray explained that he found Darwin's theory persuasive for several reasons: all species have some variation within them, similar species tend to be found in locations geographically proximate to one another, and new research was revealing the earth to be far older than the few thousand years previously believed.

Four years later, in July 1863, an anonymous author contributed a review of Sir Charles Lyell's book The Geological Evidences of the Antiquity of Man. The reviewer was open to Lyell's thesis that humans have a history stretching back 30,000 years, as evidenced by archaeological findings. Nevertheless, he was skeptical of Lyell's support for Darwin's theory of how humans had evolved:

We can see no more reason why a giraffe should have had a long neck, because he wished to crop the leaves of tall trees, than that mankind should have become winged, because in all times both children and men have wished to fly.

The reviewer's primary reservation was that Darwin's theory was unsupported by any known scientific principle. Scientists could not explain the appearance of those adaptations so critical to natural selection. Rather than reject natural selection, however, he encouraged further investigation; Darwin's theory should be a starting point, he suggested—an idea for scientists to continue to test and prod.

Some were far less accepting of Darwin's theory. Then, as now, many were affronted by the notion that humankind is simply a highly developed primate. In 1867, E. P. Whipple mocked such skeptics by penning a satirical objection to Darwin's theory—allegedly from the perspective of a narrow-minded reactionary named Mr. Solomon Hardhack. This rant, titled "Mr. Hardhack on the Derivation of Man from the Monkey" (March 1867), expressed indignation toward the prospect of taking man from "one step below the angels" to "one step above the monkey":

With a monkey in the background, how can even a Hapsburg or a Guelf put on airs of superiority? How must he hide his face in shame to think, that, as his line lengthens into an obscure antiquity, the foreheads of his house slope, and their jaws project; that he has literally been all his life aping aristocracy, instead of being the real thing; and that, when he has reached his true beginning, his only consolation must be found in the fact that his great skulking, hulking, gibbering baboon of an ancestor rejoices, like himself, in the possession of the "third lobe," "the posterior cornu of the lateral ventricle," and "the hippocampus minor."
Stretching his feigned righteous anger to its limits, he wrote:

Do you tell me that this is a matter exclusively for anatomists and naturalists to decide? That's the most impudent pretension of all. Why, it's all the other way. Have I not a personal interest in the question greater than any possible interest I can have in the diabolical Jingo of scientific terms in which those fellows state the results of their investigations? Have I delegated to any College of Surgeons the privilege of chimpanzeeizing my ancestors? No, sir. Just look at it. Here are the members of the human race, going daily about their various avocations, entirely ignorant that any conspiracy is on foot to trick them out of their fatherhood in Adam. While they are thus engaged in getting an honest living, a baker's dozen of unauthorized miscreants assemble in a dissecting-room, manipulate a lot of skulls, and decide that the whole batch of us did not descend from a human being. I tell you the whole thing is an atrocious violation of the rights of man. It's unconstitutional, sir!

Science continued to advance rapidly in the decades that followed. Gregor Mendel's groundbreaking research into the inheritance of traits led to an understanding of chromosomal heredity, which, in the early twentieth century in turn led to the burgeoning new field of genetic science.

The Atlantic chronicled such changes, starting with John Burroughs' "In the Noon of Science" (September 1912). The new primacy of science, Burroughs wrote, was causing people to view the world more dispassionately and mechanically; cars, trains, and industry were increasingly cluttering the world with noise and distraction, and the insight afforded by laboratory science had reduced the animal world from companion beings to mere collections of cells and bones. But science, Burroughs contended, could also inspire:

It is only through science that we know we are on a planet, and are heavenly voyagers at all... Science enables us to understand our own ignorance and limitations, and so puts us at our ease amid the splendors and mysteries of creation. We fear and tremble less, but we marvel and enjoy more.

Evolution, he suggested, challenged people to let go of old beliefs and embrace those that reason, logic, and the scientific method were proving true. Despite the growing body of evidence to support it, however, many still found Darwin's theory difficult to accept because, he wrote, "there is no poetry or romance in it as there is in the Garden of Eden myth."

A little over a decade later, in "The Modern View of Evolution" (April 1924), Vernon Kellogg considered the religious opposition to Darwin's theory. His article appeared just a year before the Scopes trial, when anti-evolutionists attempted to proscribe the teaching of evolution in public schools. According to Kellogg, the end of World War I had brought with it a revival in religious thinking, which had solidified resistance to Darwin's theory:

Whatever the reason, there has been, since the war, a quickening of attention among us in Europe and America to the status of our religion. And in course of this attention evolution has come again to the position of whipping boy for those who take their religion too emotionally and thoughtlessly, hence violently.

Biologists, he explained, might debate the details of evolution—arguing in favor of varying theories as to how evolution works. But they accept the premise of evolution in general. Anti-evolutionists, on the other hand, rarely cite scientific uncertainty as their reason for dismissing evolution. They dismiss it, rather, simply because they prefer creation theory, and strenuously believe that any contradiction must be rejected.

A year later, The Atlantic published an article that provided further insight into these reactionary views. In "Religion and Science" (August 1925), Alfred North Whitehead suggested that the tendency of religious zealots to attack new discoveries and defend tradition revealed a fundamental lack of confidence in religion's ability to withstand an evolution of ideas. He wrote:

In the early medaeival times Heaven was in the sky, and Hell was underground; volcanoes were the jaws of Hell. I do not assert that these beliefs entered into the official formulations, but they did enter into the popular understanding of the general doctrines of Heaven and Hell. These notions were what everyone thought to be implied by the doctrine of the future state. They entered into the explanations of the most influential exponents of Christian belief.

Reliance on such literal interpretations of Christian concepts made them vulnerable to scientific challenges, wrote Whitehead, and forced religious thinkers to protect those concepts against the incursions of empirical discovery at all costs. In contrast, he wrote:

... When Darwin or Einstein proclaims theories which modify our ideas, it is a triumph for science. We do not go about saying that there is another defeat for science, because its old ideas have been abandoned. We know that another step of scientific insight has been gained.

By 1957, a century of scientists had answered the calls of Darwin, Gray, Lyell, and others to use science to evaluate evolutionary theory. In "Mutations and Evolution" (October 1957), biologist Evelyn M. Witkin reviewed their progress, lauding advancements in genetic science that had enabled evolutionary theory to be tested and proven. She wrote:

The study of evolution has moved into the laboratory, and while it is not possible to duplicate here the kinds of changes that have required millions of years in nature, the elementary steps of evolution can be analyzed... Genes and mutations are much the same, in their basic behavior, whether they are investigated in fruit flies, in maize plants, in man, or in microorganisms.
She explained that the familiar bacteria E. coli, for example, reproduces so rapidly that scientists can observe many generations over a period of hours. Experiments with colonies of bacteria proved that random mutations allowed the organisms to evolve such that future generations were more fit for survival. Witkin described the way bacteria evolved quickly to become resistant to antibiotics, a phenomenon troubling to medical doctors who today are pressed to find new medications to fight bacterial infections.

As science progressed rapidly throughout the middle of the twentieth Century, the quest to defend religious tradition continued apace. Creationists first tried to counter the teaching of evolution by introducing creation into the curriculum as a religious belief, but the Scopes trial of 1925 thwarted this effort. Later, creationists claimed that creationism itself qualified as science. A few years after Witkin's article appeared in The Atlantic, John Whitcomb and Henry Morris wrote a treatise called The Genesis Flood (1961) promoting this argument. In it, they attempted, as many had before them, to marshal scientific, geological evidence to support their contention that a great biblical flood had taken place approximately 5,000 years ago. Their treatise became the founding document of what has become known as "creation science."

In a September 1982 article, "Genesis vs. Geology," Stephen Jay Gould wrote a rebuttal to their work, taking Whitcomb and Morris to task for employing miracles to account for events not explicable using science:

Since we usually define science, at least in part, as a system of explanation that relies upon invariant natural laws, this charmingly direct invocation of miracles (suspensions of natural law) would seem to negate the central claims of the modern creationist movement -- that creationism is not religion but a scientific alternative to evolution; that creationism has been disregarded by scientists because they are a fanatical and dogmatic lot who cannot appreciate new advances; and that creationists must therefore seek legislative redress in their attempts to force a "balanced treatment" for both creationism and evolution in the science classrooms of our public schools.

Gould rhetorically suggested a compromise: a non-literal interpretation of Genesis that would allow for scientific realities without striking down religious beliefs:

One might be tempted to take a "liberal," or allegorical, view of Scripture and identify this sequence with the order of creation in Genesis 1, allowing millions or billions of years for the "days" of Moses. But creationists will admit no such reconciliation. Their fundamentalism is absolute and uncompromising.

The debate over evolution remains as polarized as it was 150 years ago, with no foreseeable resolution. In his 1860 review of The Origin of Species, Asa Gray wrote:

New notions and new styles worry us, till we get well used to them, which is only by slow degrees.

One wonders whether Gray anticipated that those degrees would be measured in centuries.

—Elizabeth Dougherty
SherryB
bee,

As you know, I'm an open and often too honest person. I tell it like I think it is. More than once I've had my foot in my mouth as things come flying out of my mouth before the old brain kicks in to stop me.

I've always believed in evolution, I never doubted it.

When I worked at B. Dalton years ago, I was standing at my register looking at the magazines across from me and started laughing, the man who worked with me asked what was so funny and I said "the gorilla in the helmet". It DID look funny.

Well, to say the least, it was a very non-PC thing I said as the "gorilla" was Walter Payton, one of the Chicago Bears most beloved stars.

I was shocked that it was a human and more shocked by the way the man I worked with acted. He was offended by my saying what I did. I didn't mean anything bad, I actually thought it was a gorilla. Shoot me for crying out loud. Some people look like gorillas to me. I guess I should just shut up. NOW!

Bart Katz
If evolution is hard scientific fact, then it's not a matter of believing in it. It's either fact or it's not. All scientific facts can be physically demonstrated.
SherryB
Do you believe in DNA?? If so, then evolution can be demonstrated.
Arturo_Vandelay
Where did DNA come from?
SherryB
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Aug 13 2005, 03:07 PM)
Where did DNA come from?
[right][snapback]113934[/snapback][/right]


Star stuff.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(SherryB @ Aug 13 2005, 02:10 PM)
Star stuff.
[right][snapback]113936[/snapback][/right]

laugh.gif
Arturo_Vandelay
Maybe I could make a woman and a pizza out of it for my entertainment this evening.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Aug 13 2005, 02:20 PM)
Maybe I could make a woman and a pizza out of it for my entertainment this evening.
[right][snapback]113940[/snapback][/right]

The good news is that you can get the Pizza delivered.
Bee
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Aug 13 2005, 03:20 PM)
Maybe I could make a woman and a pizza out of it for my entertainment this evening.
[right][snapback]113940[/snapback][/right]


blink.gif
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Aug 13 2005, 12:23 PM)
The good news is that you can get the Pizza delivered.
[right][snapback]113941[/snapback][/right]



For the right price the woman too.

South sixth has a drive through, but the quality is suspect.
Bee
QUOTE(SherryB @ Aug 13 2005, 02:41 PM)
bee,

  As you know, I'm an open and often too honest person.  I tell it like I think it is.  More than once I've had my foot in my mouth as things come flying out of my mouth before the old brain kicks in to stop me.

  I've always believed in evolution, I never doubted it.

  When I worked at B. Dalton years ago, I was standing at my register looking at the magazines across from me and started laughing, the man who worked with me asked what was so funny and I said "the gorilla in the helmet".  It DID look funny. 

  Well, to say the least, it was a very non-PC thing I said as the "gorilla" was Walter Payton, one of the Chicago Bears most beloved stars.

  I was shocked that it was a human and more shocked by the way the man I worked with acted.  He was offended by my saying what I did.  I didn't mean anything bad, I actually thought it was a gorilla.  Shoot me for crying out loud.  Some people look like gorillas to me.  I guess I should just shut up.  NOW!
[right][snapback]113926[/snapback][/right]


Awwww forget them if they don't have a sense of humor.

It reminds me of the mote/beam thang.

Walter Payton would have laughed. It seems to me the folks most uptight about racism are the racists.
SherryB
Space and AV had a laugh at my expense, AGAIN, but that's the correct answer. tongue.gif

We're all made of star stuff.

The original post in this thread was about the difference between the Torah and the NT.

To me, the whole religion thing is the way society keeps it's people in control. By promising someone riches, or virgins, after you're dead, IF you conform to the specific rules of said religion, while alive, gives a person a hope of better things to come. Kind of like winning the lottery, only with better odds. Keep hope alive!

When I was very young I thought there was a guy with a long white beard and flowing robes counting the sparrows as they fell from the sky, but then life intruded. And wisdom. Now I'm not worrying about God. There either is or isn't one. My life continues. It takes a burden off your shoulders not to worry about pleasing some unseen spirit. I just have myself to make happy. And I am. smile.gif
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(SherryB @ Aug 13 2005, 03:24 PM)
Space and AV had a laugh at my expense, AGAIN, but that's the correct answer.  tongue.gif

  We're all made of star stuff.

  The original post in this thread was about the difference between the Torah and the NT.

  To me, the whole religion thing is the way society keeps it's people in control.  By promising someone riches, or virgins, after you're dead, IF you conform to the specific rules of said religion, while alive, gives a person a hope of better things to come.  Kind of like winning the lottery, only with better odds.  Keep hope alive!

  When I was very young I thought there was a guy with a long white beard and flowing robes counting the sparrows as they fell from the sky, but then life intruded.  And wisdom.  Now I'm not worrying about God.  There either is or isn't one.  My life continues.  It takes a burden off your shoulders not to worry about pleasing some unseen spirit.  I just have myself to make happy.  And I am.  smile.gif
[right][snapback]113979[/snapback][/right]

Post of the day.
Bix12
QUOTE(SherryB @ Aug 13 2005, 03:10 PM)
Star stuff.
[right][snapback]113936[/snapback][/right]


More precisely, 2nd or 3rd generation star stuff...we are made out of Super Novas, baybee!!!

biggrin.gif
Bart Katz
QUOTE(SherryB @ Aug 13 2005, 02:01 PM)
Do you believe in DNA??  If so, then evolution can be demonstrated.
[right][snapback]113933[/snapback][/right]


Believe in DNA? It can be tested. However it does not prove evolution.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Aug 16 2005, 06:02 PM)
Believe in DNA?  It can be tested.  However it does not prove evolution.
[right][snapback]115406[/snapback][/right]


Micro-evolution can be and has been 'demonstrated', though, right?
Nomarchy
QUOTE(SherryB @ Aug 13 2005, 10:41 AM)
bee,

  As you know, I'm an open and often too honest person.  I tell it like I think it is.  More than once I've had my foot in my mouth as things come flying out of my mouth before the old brain kicks in to stop me.

  I've always believed in evolution, I never doubted it.

  When I worked at B. Dalton years ago, I was standing at my register looking at the magazines across from me and started laughing, the man who worked with me asked what was so funny and I said "the gorilla in the helmet".  It DID look funny. 

  Well, to say the least, it was a very non-PC thing I said as the "gorilla" was Walter Payton, one of the Chicago Bears most beloved stars.

  I was shocked that it was a human and more shocked by the way the man I worked with acted.  He was offended by my saying what I did.  I didn't mean anything bad, I actually thought it was a gorilla.  Shoot me for crying out loud.  Some people look like gorillas to me.  I guess I should just shut up.  NOW!
[right][snapback]113926[/snapback][/right]


How many gorillas have you seen, though?

Not to mention, similar phenotype does not imply similar genotype. Or that one 'derived' from the other. Similar genotypes may connote a common ancestor, though.

The black folks of Southeast Asia, the Southern Pacific and Oceania are not any 'closer' genetically to the black folks of Africa than they are to blonde, blue-eyed Europeans.
Rene
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Aug 13 2005, 11:46 AM) [snapback]113927[/snapback]

If evolution is hard scientific fact, then it's not a matter of believing in it. It's either fact or it's not. All scientific facts can be physically demonstrated.

Yeah, just like taking a one inch length of bone and adding some assumptions and coming up with a whole T-Rex. That always fascinated me about scientist and their absolutes, when it suited them. How about all those past scientist that claimed the laws of dynamics would not allow any machine to exceed 15MPH and then 50MPH and then the Sound Barrier and then the Van Allen Belt and then...... Yet, let some person come in and claim to have seen an unknown animal, belief in a religion as documented in scientifically rejected ancient texts or some other taboo subject, and their minds shut tighter than bear traps. The Mountain Gorilla's existance makes the point. People from all over the region had reported seeing them for decades and were scoffed at until the scientist saw them for themselves. Science is not based solely on fact and much on theories as well.

Find some old books and writings in stone, clay or walls and they're taken as fact until they recount something that goes against common theories or paradigms, then it's reclassified as myth. Oh the hypocracy of science. cool.gif
Rene
It’s thou “Shalt not Murder”, not “Thou Shalt not kill”.

This is a misinterpretation that has been out there and erroneously misunderstood and perpetuated by good people for generations much to their needless suffering. It has also been repeated in the C-Span Suck Community on a multitude of issues bearing generally on capital punishment and war as an absolute. Some have even gone so far as to suggest that being Christian forbids it since Christ would not have had any part in killings or war. I find it amusing that those professing such are arguing against the most important point in the Nicene Creed. wink.gif

Well some of ya’ll should know by now that I believe in sharing information. Even politically incorrect information. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
Thou Shalt Not Murder*

Those of us who are familiar with the original Hebrew text of the Bible find frequent occasion to whine about inaccuracies and misleading expressions in the translations that are in use among non-Jews. Many of these discrepancies arose out of patently theological motives, as Christian interpreters rewrote passages in the "Old Testament" so as to turn them into predictions or prefigurations of the life of Jesus. Some of the mistranslations, though, are harder to account for.

For me, one of the most irksome cases has always been the rendering of the sixth commandment as "Thou shalt not kill." In this form, the quote has been conscripted into the service of diverse causes, including those of pacifism, animal rights, the opposition to capital punishment, and the anti-abortion movement.
Indeed, "kill" in English is an all-encompassing verb that covers the taking of life in all forms and for all classes of victims. That kind of generalization is expressed in Hebrew through the verb "harag." However, the verb that appears in the Torah's prohibition is a completely different one, " ratsah" which, it would seem, should be rendered "murder." This root refers only to criminal acts of killing.

It is, of course, not just a question of etymology. Those ideologies that adduce the commandment in support of their gentle-hearted causes are compelled to feign ignorance of all those other places in the Bible that condone or command warfare, the slaughter of sacrificial animals, and an assortment of methods for inflicting capital punishment.

The good old King James version of the Bible, which introduced this formulation into standard English discourse, is usually much more accurate in its Hebrew scholarship, and I have wondered for many years how the erudite scholars who produced that fine translation managed to slip up on such a simple expression, one that would have been caught by any Jewish schoolchild.

It turns out that the confusion did not originate with that sixteenth-century English translation. From the writings of Jewish exegetes who lived in medieval France, we learn that the gentiles in their environment were also translating the biblical prohibition incorrectly.

For example, two of the most eminent commentators of the time, Rabbi Samuel ben Meir (Rashbam) and Rabbi Joseph Bekhor-Shor, felt the need to go on at uncharacteristic length in order to explain that the Hebrew text refers only to unlawful killing. Both these scholars pointed out plainly the differences between the Hebrew roots for killing and murdering (for good measure, Bekhor Shor even provides a French translation of the latter term: meurtre), and brought ample evidence of the Torah's condoning other types of killing.

Rashbam concludes his discussion of the topic with the following words:
And this is a refutation of the heretics, and they have conceded the point to me. Even though their own books state "I kill, and I make alive" (in Deuteronomy 32:39) --using the same Latin root as for "thou shalt not murder"--they are not being precise.

From the words of these French Jewish scholars, we learn that the "thou shalt not kill" translation stems from the Latin Bible translation that was in use in the medieval Roman Catholic Church. Indeed, the Vulgate (as that translation is designated) employs the Latin verb occidere which has the sense of "kill" rather than "murder." By demonstrating that the Vulgate itself employed the root occidere in Deuteronomy, when the Almighty himself is speaking of his own power over the lives of his creatures--in a context where it cannot conceivably be rendered as "murder"--Rashbam aggressively proved the error of the traditional Christian understanding of the sixth commandment. It is not surprising, therefore, to hear that his Christian interlocutors acknowledged their error without a fight.

This still raises some difficult questions about the Latin Vulgate translation. The author of that translation, Saint Jerome (died in 420), spent much of his career in the Land of Israel, where he consulted frequently with Jewish scholars whose interpretations he often cites with great respect. Even the Septuagint, the old Greek translation of the Bible, translated the commandment with a word that means "murder" rather than "kill." St. Augustine, basing himself on the standard translations, made it clear that the commandment does not extend to wars or capital punishment that are explicitly ordained by God.

The fact remains, however, that even the Jewish translators were not unanimous in maintaining a consistent distinctions between the various Hebrew roots.

Don Isaac Abravanel and others noted that ratsah is employed in Numbers 35:27-30 both when dealing with an authorized case of blood vengeance, and with capital punishment--neither of which falls under the legal category of murder.

In fact, some distinguished Jewish philosophers believed that "thou shalt not kill" is a perfectly accurate rendering of the sixth commandment. Maimonides, for example, wrote that all cases of killing human beings involve violations of the command, even if the violation happens to be overridden by other mitigating factors. It has been suggested that this tradition underlies the virtual elimination of capital punishment in Rabbinic law.

Viewed from this perspective, we may appreciate that the translation "thou shalt not kill" was not the result of simple ignorance on the side of Jerome or the King James English translators. Rather, it reflects their legitimate determination to reflect accurately the broader range of meanings of the Hebrew root.
As usual, careful study teaches us that what initially appeared ridiculously obvious is really much more complex than it seemed at first glance. We should be very cautious before passing hasty judgment on apparent bloopers.


Source
Bee
QUOTE
As usual, careful study teaches us that what initially appeared ridiculously obvious is really much more complex than it seemed at first glance. We should be very cautious before passing hasty judgment on apparent bloopers.


Guess you didn't get this far in your reading. rolleyes.gif

Maybe, since we were given free will, it is up to each of us to define the sixth commandment in our heart.

As the Supreme Commandment for christians is to "love thy neighbor" I'll stick with "Thou shalt not Kill."
Arturo_Vandelay
There is some argument that the commandment is actually "thou shall not murder". Kill could include squishing an ant.
Bee
"Murder" could certainly be defined as 'squishing an ant' intentionally for no particular reason.

Methinks the true interpretation of the 6th commandment lies in the intent of the person "killing."
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Bee @ Jan 10 2007, 08:08 AM) [snapback]275219[/snapback]
"Murder" could certainly be defined as 'squishing an ant' intentionally for no particular reason.


Means a lot of 8 year old boys are probably going to hell.

QUOTE

Methinks the true interpretation of the 6th commandment lies in the intent of the person "killing."


Isn't that sort of why they have trials here on earth, to divide between murder, manslaughter, self-defense, etc?
Bee
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Jan 10 2007, 10:17 AM) [snapback]275220[/snapback]

Means a lot of 8 year old boys are probably going to hell.

Not really.
QUOTE

Isn't that sort of why they have trials here on earth, to divide between murder, manslaughter, self-defense, etc?

Yep.

Isn't our system of justice modeled, after all, on those selfsame ten commandments?

Quite a few people think so.

Personally, I think it all comes down to common sense, which is tied up in that whole "free will" thing.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Bee @ Jan 10 2007, 09:03 AM) [snapback]275226[/snapback]

Isn't our system of justice modeled, after all, on those selfsame ten commandments?


Ask judge Roy Moore. I think our system of justice is modelled on lawyer's ideas of making money by keeping the people from having access unless they pay a licensed lawyer, then complicating the system to make sure even if you could get access you couldn't win against a pro.
Bee
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Jan 10 2007, 11:13 AM) [snapback]275227[/snapback]

Ask judge Roy Moore. I think our system of justice is modelled on lawyer's ideas of making money by keeping the people from having access unless they pay a licensed lawyer, then complicating the system to make sure even if you could get access you couldn't win against a pro.


laugh.gif Very Probably. I was being just a tad sarcastic.
Arturo_Vandelay
OJ is free, and some kid who only facilitated a third party drug deal is in prison for life. Nuff said there.
Bee
The two-tiered justice system is a whole 'nother problem.

I agree it is a disgrace. Maybe kill two birds with one stone. Have these highly paid defense attorney's give half of their fees to public defenders, kind of have the rich mans "justice" subsidize poor mans "justice."

Maybe then we could attract some brighter lawyers to help "regular" people.
Arturo_Vandelay
Most defense attorney's aren't that highly paid. Not many rich football and movies stars to defend. They can afford someone else to do the crime.

It all comes out of our pockets sooner or later. I'd like to see the system simplified so half our legal buck is spent in paperwork and minutae. That and decriminalize pot so we aren't wasting valuable resources there. Hell, stick a little extra tax on liquor, which causes more real crime than anything.
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