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CFKane_
For me the answer to the question has music influenced you politically is a definate yes.

Two songs in particular set out most of the details for how I would like to see the world at the end of my days. One of the songs was written by a guy from Oklahoma, the other was written by a guy from England.

Here is what the Oklahoman wrote:

This aint comin from no prophet
Just an ordinary man
When I close my eyes I see
The way this world shall be
When we all walk hand in hand

When the last child cries for a crust of bread
When the last man dies for just words that he said
When theres shelter over the poorest head
We shall be free

When the last thing we notice is the color of skin
And the first thing we look for is the beauty within
When the skies and the oceans are clean again
Then we shall be free

We shall be free
We shall be free
Stand straight, walk proud
cause we shall be free

When we're free to love anyone we choose
When this worlds big enough for all different views
When we all can worship from our own kind of pew
Then we shall be free

We shall be free
We shall be free
Have a little faith
Hold out
cause we shall be free

And when money talks for the very last time
And nobody walks a step behind
When theres only one race and thats mankind
Then we shall be free

We shall be free
We shall be free
Stand straigt,
Walk proud,
Have a little faith,
Hold out
We shall be free

We shall be free
We shall be free
Stand straight,
Have a little faith
We shall be free

We shall be free
We shall be free

Here is what the Englishman wrote:

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

While those are my big political influences, this song spells out more of my personal reflections on the world, and its written by some guys from Alabama:

Mama told me when I was young
Come sit beside me, my only son
And listen closely to what I say.
And if you do this
It will help you some sunny day.
Take your time... don't live too fast,
Troubles will come and they will pass.
Go find a woman and you'll find love,
And don't forget son,
There is someone up above.

And be a simple kind of man.
Be something you love and understand.
Be a simple kind of man.
Wont you do this for me son,
If you can?

Forget your lust for the rich man's gold
All that you need is in your soul,
And you can do this if you try.
All that I want for you my son,
Is to be satisfied.

And be a simple kind of man.
Be something you love and understand.
Be a simple kind of man.
Wont you do this for me son,
If you can?

Boy, don't you worry... you'll find yourself.
Follow you heart and nothing else.
And you can do this, oh baby, if you try.
All I want for you my son,
Is to be satisfied.

And be a simple kind of man.
Be something you love and understand.
Be a simple kind of man.
Wont you do this for me son,
If you can?

So what are your musical influences, if any?
Spot
I never thought of music as political, except in a sort of emotional way. Like not partisan, but idealistic. Politics is more realistic than idealistic. Sorry for the stream of conciousness post, but it's hard to put into words. Like music makes you think of what you'd like to do, but politics is more like what you really need act on, and how you act on it.

Imagine no possesions, but nobody really wants that, they want more possesions.
Bee
Imagine for me, too.

and this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE3kKUEY5WU

American Tune

Words & music by Paul Simon


Many's the time I've been mistaken
And many times confused
Yes, and I've often felt forsaken
And certainly misused
Oh, but I'm alright, I'm alright
I'm just weary to my bones
Still, you don't expect to be
Bright and bon vivant
So far a-way from home, so far away from home

And I don't know a soul who's not been battered
I don't have a friend who feels at ease
I don't know a dream that's not been shattered
or driven to its knees
but it's alright, it's alright
for we lived so well so long
Still, when I think of the
road we're traveling on
I wonder what's gone wrong
I can't help it, I wonder what has gone wrong

And I dreamed I was dying
I dreamed that my soul ROSE unexpectedly
And looking back down at me
Smiled reassuringly
And I dreamed I was flying
And high up above my eyes could clearly see
The Statue of Liberty
Sailing away to sea
And I dreamed I was flying

We come on the ship they call the Mayflower
We come on the ship that sailed the moon
We come in the a-ge's most uncertain hours
and sing an American tune
Oh, and it's alright, it's alright, it's alright
You can't be forever blessed
Still, tomorrow's going to be another working day
And I'm trying to get some rest
That's all I'm trying to get some rest
CFKane_
QUOTE(Spot @ Jul 21 2007, 04:19 AM) [snapback]316362[/snapback]

Imagine no possesions, but nobody really wants that, they want more possesions.


I don't think Lennon would disagree with you, when you're talking about "possesions" as material goods, or things, but he said "possesions."

I think reading the start of the verse without paying attention to the end of the verse can cause you to lose sight of what his imagination was envisioning:

"Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world"

The vision he had in the song was not about a world with less material things, but a world without ownership, that's a worldview that served many of the tribes of North America well for centuries before the European invasion.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Spot @ Jul 20 2007, 09:19 PM) [snapback]316362[/snapback]


Imagine no possesions, but nobody really wants that, they want more possesions.


That guy just wanted more heroin and a nice bed to lay in. That stuff doesn't just deliver itself.


QUOTE(CFKane_ @ Jul 20 2007, 09:32 PM) [snapback]316368[/snapback]


The vision he had in the song was not about a world with less material things, but a world without ownership, that's a worldview that served many of the tribes of North America well for centuries before the European invasion.


Well? I'd probably be dead by now, and if not I'd be toothless, hobbled by dual hernias, unable to breathe well and certainly not sitting in air conditioned comfort.
CFKane_
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Jul 21 2007, 04:37 AM) [snapback]316369[/snapback]

That guy just wanted more heroin and a nice bed to lay in. That stuff doesn't just deliver itself.


No, things don't just deliver themself, but there are examples of Lennon's vision influencing the world in very big ways following his demise.

Perhaps the most significant development that I would note which shares Lennon's vision regarding possessions is the open source software movement.

Linus Torvalds did as much to advance Lennon's vision as the song.

It's not really a unique vision. It was the way the world ran when civilization began.

QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Jul 21 2007, 04:43 AM) [snapback]316369[/snapback]

Well? I'd probably be dead by now, and if not I'd be toothless, hobbled by dual hernias, unable to breathe well and certainly not sitting in air conditioned comfort.


I'm not foolish enough to believe that the profit motive doesn't impact the world in positive ways, but I'm also not blind to the fact that men climb mountains simply because they are there to be climbed. Profit, ownership, and possesions have never and will never be the sole, or even the prime motivating factor for human achievement. Our greatest moments usually happen simply because by our nature we like to solve problems and overcome challenges, even the people who amass enormous fortunes by overcoming big problems will usually tell you that the money isn't what drove them.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(CFKane_ @ Jul 20 2007, 09:49 PM) [snapback]316371[/snapback]

I'm not foolish enough to believe that the profit motive doesn't impact the world in positive ways, but I'm also not blind to the fact that men climb mountains simply because they are there to be climbed. Profit, ownership, and possesions have never and will never be the sole, or even the prime motivating factor for human achievement. Our greatest moments usually happen simply because by our nature we like to solve problems and overcome challenges, even the people who amass enormous fortunes by overcoming big problems will usually tell you that the money isn't what drove them.


I didn't mention profit. I don't think hunter-gatherers were all too much about climbing anything more than actual mountains. I totally agree about motivations, and that's why I've always said people who are concerned about just money are often poor, while people who don't care about money and just find something they like end up making a decent living, and are happier. It's been my strange experience to find some of the folks that complain most about greed really aren't all too big on sharing. Like Vitter wasn't too big on piety and faithfulness.

Life is full of surprises.
Spot
QUOTE(CFKane_ @ Jul 20 2007, 09:32 PM) [snapback]316368[/snapback]

I don't think Lennon would disagree with you, when you're talking about "possesions" as material goods, or things, but he said "possesions."

I think reading the start of the verse without paying attention to the end of the verse can cause you to lose sight of what his imagination was envisioning:

"Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world"

The vision he had in the song was not about a world with less material things, but a world without ownership, that's a worldview that served many of the tribes of North America well for centuries before the European invasion.


The world doesn't live on music alone, especially not with Yoko Ono singing. Everyone sharing a tent might sound good after the hubbub of a world tour and the stress of trying to please adoring fans and record execs, but most of us live a modest life with real expectations.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Spot @ Jul 21 2007, 12:47 AM) [snapback]316379[/snapback]

The world doesn't live on music alone, especially not with Yoko Ono singing. Everyone sharing a tent might sound good after the hubbub of a world tour and the stress of trying to please adoring fans and record execs, but most of us live a modest life with real expectations.


Spot on. smile.gif
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Spot @ Jul 20 2007, 10:47 PM) [snapback]316379[/snapback]


The world doesn't live on music alone, especially not with Yoko Ono singing. Everyone sharing a tent might sound good after the hubbub of a world tour and the stress of trying to please adoring fans and record execs, but most of us live a modest life with real expectations.


To tell the truth I really don't care about the lyrics. To me the voice is just another instrument and a good singer singing about something I disagree with is better than somebody crappy espousing exactly what I believe.

Spot
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Jul 20 2007, 10:52 PM) [snapback]316380[/snapback]

Spot on. smile.gif


Spot is about out. Finished the deck today and ready to entertain tomorrow. smile.gif
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Jul 21 2007, 01:06 AM) [snapback]316382[/snapback]

To tell the truth I really don't care about the lyrics. To me the voice is just another instrument and a good singer singing about something I disagree with is better than somebody crappy espousing exactly what I believe.


Right. Some of the VN protest songs were pretty good. I liked em but didn't pay attention to the words. Sometimes I didn't even understand the words.
CFKane_
QUOTE(Spot @ Jul 21 2007, 05:47 AM) [snapback]316379[/snapback]

The world doesn't live on music alone, especially not with Yoko Ono singing. Everyone sharing a tent might sound good after the hubbub of a world tour and the stress of trying to please adoring fans and record execs, but most of us live a modest life with real expectations.


I'm just pointing out what I think the vision was, and the guy was clearly smart enough to know that a lot of people would "say he's a dreamer, but he isn't the only one."

Communism as expressed by Marx certainly doesn't appear to have worked in achieving a similar vision. Fascism seems the ultimate antithesis of Lennon's vision. Capitalism can work both very well and very poorly all at the same time towards achieving the kind of society Lennon was discussing. Socialism has its drawbacks and its pluses when it comes to building a society similar to what Lennon saw. The kind of communalism practiced by the Souix for example during the pre-European era in America seems to share a great deal of the vision that I think Lennon was talking about. I think that the open source software movement and the kind of shared labor/shared benefit of those projects has some elements of that Souix styled communalism which I think still remains appealing to many people, and I think that open source is very in keeping with the vision of Lennon.

My big questions are do we all see the world as only operating from a balance sheet mentality, with only winners and loser? Seriously how many people do you know who wouldn't prefer for themselves and their neighbors to all be doing well, a world without losers?

think one of the reasons that people come together in civilizations as we do is much the same reason other animals join herds or packs, we all do better together than separately. People might like to see a rival or someone who treats them poorly have bad results. I think the same holds true with pack animals like the wolf, where there is generally an alpha dog as the term goes.

What I question is whether or not the pack instinct that exists in man still holds some of the more generous instincts of our canine cousins, in that the whole pack generally eats when there is a big kill, or if we have only retained the instincts to gnash our teeth and growl to take the biggest piece? I actually rather think that more of our instincts are inclined to the shared feast than the gnashed teeth, but as the world stands today our stronger instincts aren't always the ones we can follow.

I'm wondering if there might come a day when a mechanism of economics that holds more in common with the Souix communalism, where shared responsibility created shared rewards might become more of the norm and replace both the system of bartered for exchange and the system of government control of resources for certain kinds of production beneficial to the whole of society.

I suspect if any such communal system were to evolve from the current environment it would likely be built around a system of possesion evolved from the corporate structure, or from the model of a tenants association in a building occupied by condominiums, but I certainly don't know what it would look like.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Jul 20 2007, 11:26 PM) [snapback]316388[/snapback]


Right. Some of the VN protest songs were pretty good. I liked em but didn't pay attention to the words. Sometimes I didn't even understand the words.


Probably why some of the lefties are going more for the throat with lyrics like "we hate Bush" and "we REALLY REALLY hate Bush", and they don't let Bruce Springsteen anywhere near them.
Davis 2.0
Fortunate son. American Woman. The albumn Soldier of Plenty.
inyerface
Country Joe - Woodstock -Feel like Im fixing to Die
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNmRCISp95w


eric burdon and the animals - sky pilot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_LjjI8TcQ0
CFKane_
So I've been thinking about the idea of no possesions and communal ownership/benefit type of civilizations of the past, and modern legal entities and legal relationships that could be used to develop some similar kind of system within the current environment of the world.

I thought about the two types of corporate structures, the for-profit corporation and the not-for-profit corporation. I thought about the Limited Liability Company. I thought about Trusts. I thought about partnerships. I thought about the insurance industry. I thought about the economic union created through the marriage relationship. I thought about how in my own life many of the people I would rather work to build things with are often family members and close friends.

It occured to me that we have a lot of different methods for creating less enduring relationships than marriage in the economic realm, but very few real permanent type of structures for people to build economic relationships along the lines of past practices of prior civilizations.

With all this swirling through my head, I've started to imagine a new method for organizing capital and governing relationships amongst economic, but also social partners and/or friends.

I think marriage is a great institution. Someday if I meet the right woman, I expect I will make that kind of commitment in my life to that woman. What has struck me as odd is that there are other people who I already hold dear, who I would gladly have some kind of formalized relationship with to help make sure that they and I were able to legally count on one another for better or worse going forward, and with whom I would gladly build economic partnerships, but these aren't people I would marry, and there really isn't any kind of formal legal relationship to govern such affairs. I'm talking about people who you would call if you had a flat tire, no AAA card, were stuck in the middle of no where without a spare at 2:30 in the morning, that would come help you out with no questions asked, for whom you would do the same thing. People who you would give two huindred bucks because they needed it and you have it. People who will bend over backwards for you at a moments notice, who you would do the same for because they matter to you. We all have them, or at least we alll should have such people in our lives, and it occurred to me that these kinds of relationships which have no legal status in todays world are the kind of relationships which if given legal form could form the basis for the kind of society that Lennon was singing about.

After thinking about this, I started considering models upon which such a legal relationship could be based, and the marriage relationship strikes me as an important kind of legal precedent from which to draw the boundaries of such a relationship if it were to gain a legal form. I'm not talking about a relationship between only two people, but I'm talking about giving legal form to a relationship amongst a large group of people, family and friends who might share common goals, common burdens, and commons duties to each other. In my experience people voluntarily take on some of these things today without formal relationships, just as a kind of unwritten, ungoverned interpersonal relationship, and I don't think that is a bad thing, but I do think giving such relationships a kind of legal form may create a substantial benefit for all of the parties to such a group.

Because I was thinking about the idea of "no possesions" as I began working through this idea, the not-for-profit corporation, which generally can own land, and do all of the things that a for profit corporation can do, including operate a business came to mind because while it can do all of these things, no individual can own a not-for-profit corporation. They can be a member, or a director of such corporation, but basically, it is a completely detached enterprise fully separate from its members, operating, typically for the benefit of some cause.

I thought about the nature of partnerships generally amongst people, and these are very transient relationships that can come and go with the wind, so while they can be used to build businesses together and accomplish other things, they don't typically provide any kind of permanent institution.

I considered the traditional for profit corporation because it is far more permanent and has fiduciary obligations that make it somewhat appealing as a building block for the kind of formalized relationship and/or entity I was thinking about.

I thought a lot about the Limited Liability Company that provides for great flexibility while providing fiduciary obligations to its members.

I thought about Trusts as a method of organizing capital and assets with their fiduciary obligations and the ability to continue ownership of property and provide continuing benefits for designated beneficiaries for years to come.

I thought about insurance contracts and how they create certain obligations amongst the parties that create at times an almost fiduciary like relationship.

I thought about labor unions and how they are designed and organized to provide collective benefits to their members.

What occured to me is that there are elements of each of these legal enterprises that I think could form the basis for the kind of more formalized relationship that I think could prove beneficial to most people, but there really isn't any legal entity or form of legal obligation that can currently be used to create the kind of economic relationship that I believe would prove most beneficial to the largest number of people.

In another post, I will discuss, the new kind of legal relationship/entity that I think is lacking today, and how I think it could be used by many people to create enormous advantages for themselves and others in their group.
Arturo_Vandelay
Your own legal commune?
hunin
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Jul 21 2007, 01:26 AM) [snapback]316388[/snapback]

Right. Some of the VN protest songs were pretty good. I liked em but didn't pay attention to the words. Sometimes I didn't even understand the words.


I was all over the map. For a time, I was humming Ballad of the Green Berets. Ain't that something.

But soon it was the the Ballad of Reuben James.


What were their names, tell me what were their names
Did you have a friend on the good Reuben James

Have you heard of the ship called the good Reuben James
Manned by hard-fightin' men both of honour and fame
She flew the Stars and the Stripes of the land of the free
But tonight she's in her grave at the bottom of the sea

It was there in the dark of that uncertain night
That we watched for the U-boat and waited for the fight
Then a whine and a rock and a loud explosion roar
And they laid the Reuben James on the cold ocean floor

Now tonight there are lights in our country so bright
In the farms and the cities they are telling of this fight
Our mighty battleships will steam the bounding main
And remember the name of the good ship Reuben James




And Waist Deep In the Big Muddy.


It was back in nineteen forty-two,
I was a member of a good platoon.
We were on maneuvers in-a Loozianna,
One night by the light of the moon.
The captain told us to ford a river,
That's how it all begun.
We were -- knee deep in the Big Muddy,
But the big fool said to push on.


The Sergeant said, "Sir, are you sure,
This is the best way back to the base?"
"Sergeant, go on! I forded this river
'Bout a mile above this place.
It'll be a little soggy but just keep slogging.
We'll soon be on dry ground."
We were -- waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool said to push on.


The Sergeant said, "Sir, with all this equipment
No man will be able to swim."
"Sergeant, don't be a Nervous Nellie,"
The Captain said to him.
"All we need is a little determination;
Men, follow me, I'll lead on."
We were -- neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool said to push on.


All at once, the moon clouded over,
We heard a gurgling cry.
A few seconds later, the captain's helmet
Was all that floated by.
The Sergeant said, "Turn around men!
I'm in charge from now on."
And we just made it out of the Big Muddy
With the captain dead and gone.


We stripped and dived and found his body
Stuck in the old quicksand.
I guess he didn't know that the water was deeper
Than the place he'd once before been.
Another stream had joined the Big Muddy
'Bout a half mile from where we'd gone.
We were lucky to escape from the Big Muddy
When the big fool said to push on.


Well, I'm not going to point any moral;
I'll leave that for yourself
Maybe you're still walking, you're still talking
You'd like to keep your health.
But every time I read the papers
That old feeling comes on;
We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.


Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep! Neck deep! Soon even a
Tall man'll be over his head, we're
Waist deep in the Big Muddy!
And the big fool says to push on!




Then came Gaye's What's Goin' On and Buffalo Springfield's For What It's Worth. Et al.

Plenty of political emotions in music.

Of late Springstein and Neal Young notably.

Keep On Rocking In The Free World.


Colors on the street
Red, white, and blue
People shuffling their feet
People sleeping in their shoes
There's a warning sign in the road ahead
There's a lot of people saying we'd be better off dead
Don't feel like Satan, but I am to them
So I try Forget them any way I can

Keep on rocking in the free world
keep on rocking in the free world
keep on rocking in the free world
keep on rocking in the free world

I see a girl in the night
with a baby in her hands
Under an old street light
near a garbage can
Now she put her kid away, she's gone to get a hit
She hates her life, and what she's done with it
That's one more kid, that'll never go to school
Never get to fall in love, never get to be cool

Keep on rocking in the free world
keep on rocking in the free world
keep on rocking in the free world
keep on rocking in the free world

Solo


There's a thousand points of light
For the homeless man
There's a kinder, gentler machine gun hand
There's department stores, and toilet paper
Styrofoam garbage for the Ozone layer
There's a man of the people, says people alive
Got fuel to burn, got roads to drive

Keep on rocking in the free world
keep on rocking in the free world
keep on rocking in the free world
keep on rocking in the free world




CFKane_
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Jul 21 2007, 10:53 PM) [snapback]316509[/snapback]

Your own legal commune?


In some respects yes, but something quite different as well. I haven't quite figured out the legal structure of this kind of organization/legal relationship, or for that matter whether it would be better to consider it a legal obligation, or a separate entity, or if there is some manner to make something that is a hybrid. I haven't figured out the appropriate tax structure for it because at the end of the day it is a cross between a corporation, an individual trust with numerous grantors, a limited liability company, a contractual obligation, an insurance plan, a retirement fund, a college savings plan, and in some respects a labor union I think, but it is more than that as well because as I see it, while the money that would be pooled for collected benefits would be best served as being held as a separate legal entity as kind of a spendthrift trust protected from creditors, it would also create personal obligations amongst the members to each other different from the obligations of a labor unions membership, but somewhat similar, and different from the obligations of a husband and wife, but somewhat similar. I don't know that this would be a one size fits all scenario, because I think it would be fairly self-defined, and there would be varying degrees of cooperation to achieve collected benefits, but I do think this kind of collected organization could ultimately prove very fruitful for society in terms of both economic growth, and wealth creation, but also for leveling the playing field a bit more for everyone.

I mean if twenty friends and family members got together when they were 20 and agreed to pool just 5% of the $20K each of them were earning every year that would mean that $20,000 a year was being put away for the group. Which isn't a lot divided twenty ways, just $1,000 each into the pot, but simple compounded interest on these larger initial sums would make the pot a lot more valuable than contributions by the individual alone. Assume that part of the agreement meant that no benefits would be drawn by any member for at least 10 years, or until such time as the assets of the plan had reached a certain dollar amount, say $2 million, but the obligation to contribute to the plan continued for life. Assume over time that with a reasonable rate of return from stocks, bonds, and bank deposits the plan reached a point where it could buy rental properties through non-recourse borrowing and accelerate returns dramatically through borrowing. It is likely that there would come a time when such a plan could guarantee each member that they had health insurance if that were one of the missions of the plan, or it could guarantee that college was paid for in full for any member of the plan, or it could guarantee that each member had a home in a development owned by the plan, or it could guarantee that each member recieved a certain annual stipend for living expenses, or any number of things. Maybe the goals of the plan aren't just individualized benefits, maybe the goals are to use the money to allow each member to start their own business with plan funds and become captain of their own ship, with the profits of the business poured back into the plan at the end of every year, after the member responsible for the business takes a reasonable salary, with the goal being that each member has their own business. Plan goals like that might help subsidize businesses that have a few lean years, but which could ultimately prove successful with proper support. Maybe that is a goal of the plan, to provide income for a member who becomes disabled in times of need. Maybe the plans have many goals and work to achieve each of them through various means.

Outside of the capital organization structure the formal obligations of such a plan could require members to provide certain personal services for each other free of charge. For example, if one member of the group was a dentist, they would provide ordinary dental care, while if another member was a mechanic they could provide car repair services, or maybe the service obligations of members to each other are less formal, with each member agreeing to provide help in times of need, like having every member of the plan ready to provide labor when one of the members need to remodel their kitchen, or every member ready to make a dish for a pot luck when one of the members has a special occasion to celebrate like a wedding or graduation. I mean some of these obligations might be things that people do for friends and family already on a voluntary basis, just because they do, but these organizations might grow beyond mere friends and family and prove quite beneficial to all of the members.

The other thing that I thought about is that while 5% might be a good amount to throw into the collective kitty, depending on the people involved, maybe 40% of their income is thrown into the collective kitty because they have taken on a collected and personal obligation to buy a couple of hundred acres where they each have their own house on a big lot owned by the group, and wherein one of the houses is "theirs" to use, but really belongs to the group. I'm not suggesting setting up some collective farm or a sixties style commune, but rather a planned development owned by a group where the members have day jobs and contribute to their group owned asset, but each have a little piece to use in a manner similar to a life estate in part of the property, or a timeshare.

I'm really not sure what such a plan would call for because I'm still trying to figure out whether to structure it as an entity, or as a legal obligation, like a marriage, or if it is possible to find some middle ground to create a hybrid of the two. It seems to me though that with proper planning a new kind of ownership structure could be created, a great deal of leverage could be made available to a lot of people to better themselves as a group, and an interesting new direction could be laid out for the future development of society that is separate from traditional capitalism, but which operates in harmony with it as well.
SpaceCowboy
Sounds like a Kibbutz.

Or the way Indian families operate.
CharlieRay
One Tin Soldier
words and music by Dennis Lambert and Brian Potter
From the movie "The Legend of Billy Jack"

Listen children to a story...
that was written long ago...
about a kingdom on a mountain...
and the valley folk below...

On the mountain was a treasure...
buried deep beneath the stone...
and the valley people swore...
they'd have it for their very own...

(Chorus)
So go ahead and hate your neighbor...
go ahead and cheat a friend...
do it in the name of heaven...
jUStify it in the end...

There won't be any trumpets blowing...
come the judgement day...
on the bloody morning after...
one tin soldier rides away...

So the people of the valley...
sent a message up the hill...
asking for the buried treasure...
tons of gold, for which they'd kill...

Came an answer from the kingdom...
"with our brothers we will share...
all the secrets of our mountain...
all the riches buried there"...

Now, the valley cried with anger...
"mount your horses, draw your sword"...
and they killed the mountain people...
so, they'd won their jUSt reward...

Now, they stood beside the treasure...
on the mountain dark and red...
turned the stone and looked beneath it...
"Peace on Earth" was all it said...

(Chorus)
So go ahead and hate your neighbor...
go ahead and cheat a friend...
do it in the name of heaven...
jUStify it in the end...

There won't be any trumpets blowing...
come the judgement day...
on the bloody morning after...
one tin soldier rides away...
one tin soldier rides away.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?source...vision&cd=1
CFKane_
I think I might have come up with an idea for a new social contract for the 21st century. If put together the right way it could eliminate most taxes for social programs, provide health care for anyone who wants it at a reasonable price, provide affordable housing to most people, provide a solid education for everyone, give most people a fairly stable and guaranteed retirement income, provide substantial disability, unemployment and economic hardship benefits, give most people the ability to fund the startup of their own business more easily, provide a substantial wealth creation tool for most people, all on a voluntary basis, with only minimal need for the government in the form of courts to enforce rights and duties created by this contract.

I'm starting to write a book about the idea.
Bart Katz
Yeah, you should write a book. rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif
CFKane_
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Jul 27 2007, 09:19 PM) [snapback]317763[/snapback]

Yeah, you should write a book. rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif


I know you don't like me, but the thing you need to remember is that I occassionally let my mind wander far enough to the left or far enough to the right that it ends up on the other side.

I have a sneaking suspicion that you might actually appreciate the ideas I'm getting ready to advocate, because it should cut your tax bill by about 2/3 regardless of your income bracket.

The lefties will like it because it will still provide for all of the social safety nets that they appreciate.

The people on the right will like it because it will provide for considerably more individual control.

The people on the left should like it because it should help to reduce or eliminate proverty.

The people on the right should like it because it should dramatically increase wealth creation.

The libertarians will like it because it operates on a principle of voluntary binding relationships and agreements that impose legal duties and obligations that can be enforced by law, but aren't forced onto anyone by law.

It's a radical idea, but its a radical idea in the way that the constitution was radical. It takes some good ideas from the past and combines them in an interesting way, because it has faith that ordinary people can make things better for themselves.
CharlieRay
http://www.youtube.com/v/QvY99BJzN-M&c...cfcfcf&fs=1

SIMPLE SONG OF FREEDOM

Come and sing a simple song of freedom
Sing it like you've never sung before
Let it fill the air
Tell the people everywhere
We, the people here, don't want a war

Hey there, Mister Black Man can you hear me?
I don't want your diamonds or your game
I just want to be, someone known to you as me
and I will bet my life you want the same

Come and sing a simple song of freedom
Sing it like you've never sung before
Let it fill the air
Tell the people everywhere
We, the people here, don't want a war

Seven hundred million are you listening?
Most of what you read is made of lies
But speaking one to one, ain't it everybody's sun
To wake to in the morning when we rise?

So come and sing a simple song of freedom
Sing it like you've never sung before
Let it fill the air
Tell the people everywhere
We, the people here, don't want a war

Brother Yareshenko are you busy?
If not would you drop a friend a line?
Tell me if the man, who is plowing up your land
has got the war machine upon his mind

Come and sing a simple song of freedom
Sing it like you've never sung before
Let it fill the air
Tell the people everywhere
That we, the people here, don't want a war

Now no doubt some folks enjoy doin' battle
Like presidents, prime ministers and kings
So let's all build them shelves where they can fight among themselves
and leave the people be who like to sing

Come and sing a simple song of freedom
Sing it like you've never sung before
Let it fill the air
Tell the people everywhere
That we the people here, don't want a war

Let it fill the air
Tell the people everywhere
That we the people here, don't want a war

Bobby Darin
Repub_Bub
QUOTE (CharlieRay @ Nov 20 2008, 06:05 PM) *
SIMPLE SONG OF FREEDOM

Ode to the trough

Come sing a simple song
'bout them banks thats done gone wrong
We done worried sure enough
All we wants is our free stuff
underhi2p
One, two, three, four...
Hrmm!
One, two, (one, two, three, four!)

Let me tell you how it will be;
There's one for you, nineteen for me.
'Cause I?m the taxman,
Yeah, I?m the taxman.

Should five per cent appear too small,
Be thankful I don't take it all.
'Cause I?m the taxman,
Yeah, I?m the taxman.

(if you drive a car, car;) - I?ll tax the street;
(if you try to sit, sit;) - I?ll tax your seat;
(if you get too cold, cold;) - I?ll tax the heat;
(if you take a walk, walk;) - I'll tax your feet.

Taxman!

'Cause I?m the taxman,
Yeah, I?m the taxman.

Don't ask me what I want it for, (ah-ah, mister Wilson)
If you don't want to pay some more. (ah-ah, mister heath)
'Cause I?m the taxman,
Yeah, I?m the taxman.

Now my advice for those who die, (taxman)
Declare the pennies on your eyes. (taxman)
'Cause I?m the taxman,
Yeah, I?m the taxman.

And you're working for no one but me.

Taxman!
Arturo_Vandelay
All you need is love.
Davis 2.0
or a lobotomy
Arturo_Vandelay
This is America, have both.
inyerface



CharlieRay
I picked up the guitar this am(first time in a long time:~) and serenaded sweetie out of her slumber(Through the Ages and Thank You :~).

It went real good and it looks like it's gonna be a really good day today. :~)
Bart Katz
I woulda broke it over your head.

I got woke up by duck hunters. There must be 100 of em out there.
CharlieRay
QUOTE (Bart Katz @ Nov 27 2008, 07:35 AM) *
I woulda broke it over your head.


laugh.gif laugh.gif
Bart Katz
QUOTE (CharlieRay @ Nov 27 2008, 08:36 AM) *
laugh.gif laugh.gif


biggrin.gif
Davis 2.0
El Kabong.

CharlieRay
Romance has its risks... and its rewards.

:~)
arebuntz


Growing up in the 60s and 70s I am a big fan of guitar centric rock. Clapton, Hendrix, Page, then Stevie Ray Vaughn, Alex Van Halen, etc... but in the last decade or two not so much. Recently I came across some info on this young women.

Orianthi

Been waiting for this for some time... hopefully they will not produce her into another popster.

So I am holding out hope... Ori is god.

SpaceCowboy
Guitar centric rock is good.
arebuntz

Nice guitar...
inyerface
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWJ476PTkGQ

guitar noir
Arturo_Vandelay
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ22vUeFmBE

The tube has some music to go along with those interviews. She's not bad.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (inyerface @ Jun 16 2009, 06:20 PM) *


That guy cleans up pretty good. Looks familiar.
arebuntz
For you blues fans...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5plU18_ukrY
arebuntz
Sign of things to come...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBtzmfwONkU
underhi2p
Three of Arturo's favorites are back on the scene:

Regeneration Tour 2009 featuring ABC with Wang Chung,Cutting Crew Concert Tickets

http://www.livenation.com/edp/eventId/405215/


BrooklynBill
ODB - Shimmy Shimmy Ya

ODB - Brooklyn Zoo

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


RIP ODB.....

I love this guy....

Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (BrooklynBill @ Jul 18 2009, 03:54 PM) *
ODB - Shimmy Shimmy Ya

ODB - Brooklyn Zoo

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


RIP ODB.....

I love this guy....


Did he just die, or did it happen earlier and they just noticed it?
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