"Whatever counterterrorism action is to be taken inside Pakistan, it will be taken by our own security forces," Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam said Friday. "This has been and remains the basis of our cooperation with the US."

Contrary to what many in this place would assume, I am of the opinion that there are times and places where the U.S. should respond in such cases and situations with a hearty:

"Or else what, you useless third-world dictatorship?"

Is it that we would rather the Pakistanis be the Muslims with the nuclear weapons vs the Iranians? Or what?

The big worry is that Musharaff falls to an Islamist leadership. Bin Laden is a hero amongst much of the populace, and Al Qaeda supports the Muslim claims to Kashmir.

there is no proof that binLaden is alive

Pakistan is one sticky wicket.

But we invaded and occupied Saddam's Iraq, instead!!!!!!!!!!

a semi-not US unfriendly government

Gotta love that name.

They drink gallons of it at the lefty special olympics.

damn. Clicked the wrong thread. I didnt think this was the "stupid post/unrelated pictures" thread.

You shoulda taken better notes in clown school.

13 beheaded in Pakistan
27/10/2007 19:03 - (SA)


Imamdheri, Pakistan - Militants seized and beheaded 13 civilians and security officers in northwest Pakistan after government troops launched an assault on a radical cleric's hideout, officials said on Saturday.

The beheadings took place late on Friday in the scenic Swat valley in North West Frontier Province, where soldiers clashed with fighters loyal to the cleric, who has been driving a fierce campaign to introduce Taliban-inspired laws.

The military earlier this week deployed more than 2 000 troops to the region to bolster efforts to crack down on militant attacks launched against government leaders and security forces.

An explosion tore through a security forces vehicle in Swat on Thursday, killing about 30 people, in an apparent reaction to the arrival of the troops.

The militants seized on Friday three police and three paramilitary officers shopping at a bazaar in Matta on the outskirts of Swat and later beheaded all of them, provincial home secretary Badshah Gul Wazir told AFP.

The bodies and severed heads were then paraded in front of local residents to scare them, he said.

Seven civilians were also seized from a van nearby by militants who then executed them, provincial police chief Sharif Virk said.

"They were also slaughtered by terrorists who accused them of collaborating with the government forces," Virk told AFP.

Virk said fighting had subsided on Saturday with only sporadic exchanges of gunfire between security forces and militants in some areas.

Friday's clashes at the hideout of cleric Maulana Fazlullah in the village of Imamdheri also left three rebels and two civilians dead, officials said.

A spokesperson for Fazlullah regretted the slaughter of the security officers but denied responsibility. Instead the spokesperson blamed government forces for provoking the attack.

"We are fighting because the government forces have attacked us," spokesperson Muslim Khan told reporters in Imamdheri.

"We are only demanding enforcement of Sharia (Islamic laws) in the district and withdrawal of the army and paramilitary from the region," he said, speaking before news of the civilian deaths broke.

(Oh, that's all, eh?)

(all ) http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,...2210596,00.html

"We are only demanding enforcement of Sharia (Islamic laws) in the district and withdrawal of the army and paramilitary from the region," he said, speaking before news of the civilian deaths broke.

Pakistan on the Brink" by FB Ali
Farrukh B. Ali has written us a perceptive essay on the parlous state of Pakistan today. pl

PAKISTAN ON THE BRINK

Amid all the noise and commotion surrounding recent events in Pakistan most of the commentary in the media is either sensationalist or confused. Though it is not easy, even for close observers, to predict how the future is going to unfold, it is possible to discern possible outcomes and the underlying factors whose interplay will determine what actually comes about.

Pakistan is now a fragile structure, riven by many fissures and under severe internal and external pressures. It is a land of four major (often rival) ethnicities, each based in one of its provinces (with a fifth centred in its largest city, Karachi). There is an increasing gap between a small rich upper class and the bulk of the people, who live in various levels of poverty and deprivation. There is a burgeoning population, fed by a high birth rate. Many aspects of everyday life are controlled by a huge government bureaucracy that is both corrupt and inefficient, and works mostly for its own gain and for those who can buy or influence its goodwill.

There are, however, certain commonalities that affect Pakistanis across these dividing lines and counter their centrifugal effect. There is the common aspiration of the downtrodden and dispossessed everywhere for a better life and future for themselves and their children. There is a deep attachment to Islam, for many to the religion of the Islamists but, for the large majority, to Islam in its utopian guise as the source of all answers and solutions. There tends to be a sense of one Pakistani nationality among the people of the Punjab and most people in urban centres in other parts of the country.

Another widely held sentiment is strong anti-US feelings; these are not directed against Americans but against the US government, and are based on what is perceived as its destruction of Afghanistan and Iraq, its condoning the destruction of the Palestinians and Lebanon, its war on terror that appears to be a war on Muslims, and now its sabre-rattling against Iran.

These various commonalities do not significantly foster national unity but they do create common attitudes and responses to certain events and situations. All these forces, both positive and negative, operate beneath the surface but, though pervasive and powerful, do not have the capability to move events on their own. This can only be done by the two major repositories of power in Pakistan : the army and the people.

The army has ready-to-use, mobilized power. The people possess potential power that needs to be mobilized to produce its effect. This cannot be done through elections because they are conducted and controlled by the corrupt and pliable administrative machinery (that is why Benazir Bhutto, even though she believed she had the votes, was forced to make a deal with Gen Musharraf in order to ensure that they would not be nullified in a rigged election). She, as well as some other politicians, have the ability to bring large numbers of people out on the streets, but these demonstrations wield no effective power; a “whiff of grapeshot” can scatter them (actually, a little tear gas will do the trick).

This people power can, however, be effectively mobilized and projected by a dedicated and well-organized group. It is instructive to examine one case where this was successfully done. ZA Bhutto, then prime minister, had the 1977 elections rigged (he didn’t need to as he could have won a comfortable majority in a fair vote, but his vanity demanded an “overwhelming” victory). This blatant rigging resulted in a popular protest movement led by the opposition, which included the religious parties. When the police could not suppress this agitation, Bhutto, through his hand-picked army chief, Gen Zia ul Haq, declared martial law in several large cities and ordered the army in. The troops used deadly force and many people were killed, but the dedicated and organized cadres of the religious parties managed to keep the public demonstrations continuing. After more civilian deaths, several brigade commanders, responding to the feelings of their troops, refused to order any more shooting of demonstrators. This crack in the army’s cohesion and discipline created such alarm in the high command that the corps commanders forced Gen Zia to end the turmoil by unseating Bhutto. The rest is history.

The notable lessons to be learned from this episode, lessons that are still very much applicable today, are :

• The religious parties can mobilize people power by joining a people’s movement and using their highly-motivated and disciplined cadres to organize and sustain it. But they can do this only for a cause that the people themselves feel strongly about; they cannot do it for one of their own causes (as they have failed to do time and again).

• If the army is used against its compatriots it imposes severe strains on its discipline and cohesion. If these are felt to be at risk the generals will act decisively to end such action, by whatever means are necessary; this is a red line they will not cross.

The critical situation in which Pakistan finds itself today is because, under intense US pressure, Gen Musharraf has sent in the army to seize control of the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan, and bloody battles are raging there. In the West these are seen as operations against Taliban and terrorists; to the soldiers involved they are fighting their own countrymen (and women and children). The strains are already manifesting themselves; it was till now unimaginable that hundreds of soldiers would allow themselves to be taken captive without a fight. There is real danger of a catastrophe. If Musharraf keeps forcing the army to continue fighting this war it may fracture; all it will take is one crack, since the strain on the whole edifice is so great that this would be enough to break it apart. Even if the army is pulled back into token operations, the tribesmen are so incensed that they may not cease fighting, and the strains will then continue.

Meanwhile, the impact of this war, and the ongoing low-level insurgency in Baluchistan, is destabilizing the country. Religious fundamentalism is spreading and terrorist attacks and bombings occur frequently. The US hope that Benazir Bhutto can somehow stabilize the country, defeat internal extremists and mobilize the people against the “Taliban” is based on almost complete ignorance of the country and its dynamics. Even if she becomes prime minister, the war in the tribal areas will be controlled and fought by the generals, not by her. She cannot mobilize people power to fight the religious parties or the extremists (even when her father was hanged, when she was twice thrown out of office, and then imprisoned and later exiled, her party could not organize any significant public protest).

If the army cracks, the country could break down into anarchy, or another military dictator, with a very different orientation, could take over. Even if the army holds together, the country faces increasing instability and unrest. The growth of religious fundamentalism in society cannot help but infect the army, and there is a small but real danger of a coup being mounted by such elements in the military. If Pakistan founders, Iraq will seem, in retrospect, to have been a rather rowdy picnic, and Iran just a pushy braggart.

Critics of the Bush administration point to the invasion of Iraq as its greatest blunder. History may well record that an even bigger blunder was its policies in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Knowing that al-Qaeda was the real enemy, that they were based in Taliban Afghanistan, and that the Taliban themselves had come to power out of their bases in Pakistan, it focussed its attention instead on invading Iraq. It let the al-Qaeda leadership get away; when the Northern Alliance routed the Taliban it did nothing to ensure that they found no sanctuary in Pakistan. At that time, a little prodding could have got a subdued Musharraf to neutralize the religious parties and take control of their madrassahs (which were the support networks of the Taliban) and deny the latter sanctuaries in the border cities and tribal areas. But the lure of Iraq and a reordered Middle East drew them away, leaving huge unfinished business.

Compounding this initial blunder, the US administration is now trying to salvage US-NATO operations in Afghanistan by forcing the Pakistan government to undertake a war upon its own tribal people. It has no comprehension that in seeking this tactical gain it is risking a strategic catastrophe. In its blithe ignorance and wishful policy-making it pursues the chimeras of Benazir Bhutto’s promises that, if the US helps her become prime minister, she will take care of everything and sort out all the problems. Ahmed Chalabi once sold them an identical bill of goods, and led them into the Iraq quagmire. Now they follow Benazir Bhutto’s siren song into an even bigger disaster in the making. Some people never learn.

(all) http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/

Space,

If you can't invade, you subsidize. Wilsonian Foreign Policy 101.

That's what I've been warning that they plan to ask for everywhere. It's not that they can, but that they will continue to try and expand and demand all over the world. They have a 50 year plan, and we should have one as well. So they can't win, they can do a lot of damage in the meantime.

Think his point is that they are playing no favorites - be it an already Muslim nation such as Pakhistan or a Western one such as the UK, Australia, and Canada (specifically Ontario) (where they have asked for the same in special courts).

BTW, I've always suspected that there was a direct money connection between the ISI (Pak Intelligence) and the hijackers or their enablers. I speculate that we had some proof of this, and that was what made the administration feel free to threaten Musharaff with "bombing them into the stone age" if they did not cooperate after 9-11.

My guess only.

Too bad Pakistan doesn't share a border with Iraq. It doesn't, does it? If it did/does, we should've worked our RR-suggested magic and gotten the CLIENTS to do our, the PATRONS', dirty work.

Nope. Just India, PRC, Afghanistan, and Iran.

Too bad Pakistan doesn't share a border with Iraq. It doesn't, does it? If it did/does, we should've worked our RR-suggested magic and gotten the CLIENTS to do our, the PATRONS', dirty work.

They've taken considerable risks and casualties with their efforts in the tribal regions. Perhaps they could have been part of a Muslim peace keeping force after the Iraq invasion, had we chosen to go that route. I doubt they would have gone for it though, having their hands full with Afghanistan and their own internal difficulties.

This is in PAKISTAN, for crying out loud. What 50-year plan, when they can't even impose it on relatively friendly governments in majority Muslim countries?

That's what I've been warning that they plan to ask for everywhere. It's not that they can, but that they will continue to try and expand and demand all over the world. They have a 50 year plan, and we should have one as well. So they can't win, they can do a lot of damage in the meantime.

BTW, I've always suspected that there was a direct money connection between the ISI (Pak Intelligence) and the hijackers or their enablers. I speculate that we had some proof of this, and that was what made the administration feel free to threaten Musharaff with "bombing them into the stone age" if they did not cooperate after 9-11.

My guess only.

Ooohh, promote democracy. What could be darker than that?

That threat was made before 9-11... shortly before... and thUS why it is ominous of the government's complicity in 9-11.

If they're willing to blow people up in relatively friendly countries, what the hell do you think they're willing to do here? I said they can't win, (probably) but they are so suicidal that they may not even CARE if they win, if they can do us damage and get their virgins.

You didn't mention that the plan is basically to "invade and kill all who oppose US".

I don't think such a threat was made to Pakistan, Charlie. Perhaps you are thinking of the alleged threat claimed to have beeen made to the Taliban regarding pipeline rights :" A carpet of gold or a carpet of bombs". I've not seen that one documented, but I know that both Musharaff and Rich Armitage (Powel's former Undersecretary of State) have confirmed the threat I mentioned to Pakistan in reports from respected news sources.

It's impossible to have a rational conversation on the basis of make-believe ifs.

You and CR could 'discuss' this forever.

aah so... I was thinking about the so-called "alleged" threat made... and documented/reported before 9-11... I wasn't aware of another toward Pakistan... my mistake.

Hardly. They have their plan, and you have yours. I don't see either one winning completely.

No sweat. I'm been know to make one or two myself.

Ohh yeas... that's the reality of their plan... "invade and kill all who oppose US"... that is the bottom line of it all... somewhere inside you know that's the ultimate truth of it.

Ohh... thanks a lot for that one pal.

Map locates South Waziristan, Pakistan, where a suspected U.S. missile struck a militant camp

ISLAMABAD – Dozens of followers of Pakistan's top Taliban commander were in a compound when a suspected U.S. missile attack hit Saturday, killing 27 militants in an al-Qaida stronghold near the Afghan border, officials said.

The strike appeared to be the deadliest yet by the American drone aircraft that prowl the frontier, and defied Pakistani warnings that the tactic is fueling extremism in the nuclear-armed Islamic nation.

In an interview unrelated to the attack, President Asif Ali Zardari said the Taliban had expanded their presence to a "huge amount" of Pakistan and were even eyeing a takeover of the state.

"We're fighting for the survival of Pakistan. We're not fighting for the survival of anybody else," Zardari said, according to a transcript of his remarks that CBS television said it would air Sunday.

Many Pakistanis believe the country is fighting Islamist militants, who have enjoyed state support in the past, only at Washington's behest.

Remotely piloted U.S. aircraft are believed to have launched more than 30 attacks over the past year, and American officials say al-Qaida's leadership and ability to support the insurgency in Afghanistan has been significantly weakened. But Pakistani officials say the vast majority of the victims are civilians.

After Saturday's strike, Taliban fighters surrounded the flattened compound in the village of Shrawangai Nazarkhel and carried away the dead and wounded in several vehicles. The village is in South Waziristan, part of the tribally governed area along the Afghan frontier considered the likely redoubt of al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden.

The victims included about 15 ethnic Uzbek militants and several Afghans, said Pakistani intelligence officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media. The seniority of the militants was unclear.

Two of the officials said dozens of followers of Pakistan's top Taliban leader, Baitullah Mehsud, were staying in the housing compound when it was hit. There was no indication that Mehsud was present.

Pakistan's former government and the CIA have named Mehsud as the prime suspect behind the December 2007 killing of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto. Pakistani officials accuse him of harboring foreign fighters, including Central Asians linked to al-Qaida, and of training suicide bombers.

The accounts of Saturday's strike could not be verified independently. The tribally governed region is unsafe for reporters. The U.S. Embassy had no comment, while Pakistan's army spokesman was unavailable.

The new U.S. administration has brushed off Pakistani criticism that the missile strikes fuel extremist and anti-American sentiment and undercuts the government's own counterinsurgency strategy.

Old Google Earth satellite photos, dug up by the News of Pakistan, show U.S. drones, parked on a Pakistani runway, back in 2006.

The paper ID's the robotic planes as massive Global Hawk drones -- unlikely, the shape's all wrong. More likely, the aircraft found at coordinates 27 degrees 51 minutes North, 65 degrees and 10 minutes East are Predator drones.

Google Earth no longer shows the planes at the airfield, "built by Arab sheiks for falconry trips," according to the Times of London. But the 2009-edition images do show several new buildings -- including what appears to be a hangar, big enough for several Predators.