Full Version: 9/11
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QUOTE
they spend years and years pretending to barely know each other while Benjamin worked his way up to managing editor of Popular Science and Michael finagled himself into an incompetent head of Homeland Security, all in preparation for a fiendishly clever debunking that can't be countered on its merits.
cowdoody on both counts. It has been countered on its merits AND the scenario you describe is not at all either necessary or sufficient for the argument you're trying to debunk to obtain.
QUOTE
...senior researcher on the piece Benjamin Chertoff is the cousin of Michael Chertoff, Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security.
This means that Benjamin Chertoff was hired to write an article that would receive nationwide attention, about the veracity of the government's explanation of an event that led directly to the creation of Homeland Security, a body that his own cousin now heads.
This means that Benjamin Chertoff was hired to write an article that would receive nationwide attention, about the veracity of the government's explanation of an event that led directly to the creation of Homeland Security, a body that his own cousin now heads.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/augus...armechanics.htm
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ May 10 2007, 09:07 PM) [snapback]301368[/snapback]
Yes, it's amazing how clever the cast of thousands is, how far ahead they planned, how clever they are. Here they spend years and years pretending to barely know each other while Benjamin worked his way up to managing editor of Popular Science and Michael finagled himself into an incompetent head of Homeland Security, all in preparation for a fiendishly clever debunking that can't be countered on its merits.
Once you put it like that it make so much more sense.
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ May 10 2007, 09:41 PM) [snapback]301376[/snapback]
It has been countered on its merits AND the scenario you describe is not at all either necessary or sufficient for the argument you're trying to debunk to obtain.
If you cherry pick enough you can all have a nice neat little conspiracy scenario. Who cares how many people you have to accuse without the slightest bit of evidence.
Looks like libs have another ally speaking the spewing the same propaganda about the US.....
Putin likens U.S. foreign policy to that of Third Reich
By Andrew E. Kramer
Wednesday, May 9, 2007
MOSCOW: President Vladimir Putin of Russia obliquely compared the foreign policy of the United States to the Third Reich in a speech Wednesday commemorating the 62nd anniversary of the defeat of Nazi Germany, in an apparent escalation of anti-American rhetoric within the Russian government.
Putin did not specifically name the United States or NATO but used phrasing similar to that which he has used previously to criticize American foreign policy while making an analogy to Nazi Germany.
The comments marked the latest in a series of sharply worded Russian criticisms of the foreign policy of the Untied States - on Iraq, missile defense, NATO expansion and, broadly, the accusation that the United States has striven to single-handedly dominate world affairs.
Some political analysts see the new tone as a return to Cold War-style rhetoric by a country emboldened by petroleum wealth. But Russians say the sharper edge is a reflection of frustration that Russia's views, particularly its opposition to NATO expansion, have been ignored in the West.
Putin's analogy came as a small part of a larger speech in which he unambiguously congratulated Russian veterans of World War II, known here as the Great Patriotic War.
Speaking from a podium in front of Lenin's Mausoleum on Red Square before troops mustered for a military parade, Putin called Victory Day a holiday of "huge moral importance and unifying power" for Russia and went on to enumerate the lessons of that conflict for the world today.
"We do not have the right to forget the causes of any war, which must be sought in the mistakes and errors of peacetime," Putin said.
"Moreover, in our time, these threats are not diminishing," he said as he delved into what one expert said was clearly an allusion to U.S. foreign policy. "They are only transforming, changing their appearance. In these new threats - as during the time of the Third Reich - are the same contempt for human life and the same claims of exceptionality and diktat in the world."
The Kremlin press service declined to clarify the statement, saying Putin's spokesman was unavailable because of the holiday.
But Sergei Markov, director of the Institute of Political Studies, who works closely with the Kremlin, said in a telephone interview that Putin was referring to the United States and NATO. Markov said the comments should be interpreted in the context of a wider, philosophical discussion of the lessons of World War II. The speech also praised the role of the allies of the Soviet Union in defeating Germany.
"He intended to talk about the United States, but not only," Markov said in reference to the sentence mentioning the Third Reich. "The speech said that the Second World War teaches lessons that can be applied in today's world."
The United States, Putin has maintained, is seeking to establish a unipolar world to replace the bipolar balance of power of the Cold War era.
libs and Putin love to pull the Nazi card!
Once you put it like that it make so much more sense.
If you cherry pick enough you can all have a nice neat little conspiracy scenario. Who cares how many people you have to accuse without the slightest bit of evidence.
Putin likens U.S. foreign policy to that of Third Reich
By Andrew E. Kramer
Wednesday, May 9, 2007
MOSCOW: President Vladimir Putin of Russia obliquely compared the foreign policy of the United States to the Third Reich in a speech Wednesday commemorating the 62nd anniversary of the defeat of Nazi Germany, in an apparent escalation of anti-American rhetoric within the Russian government.
Putin did not specifically name the United States or NATO but used phrasing similar to that which he has used previously to criticize American foreign policy while making an analogy to Nazi Germany.
The comments marked the latest in a series of sharply worded Russian criticisms of the foreign policy of the Untied States - on Iraq, missile defense, NATO expansion and, broadly, the accusation that the United States has striven to single-handedly dominate world affairs.
Some political analysts see the new tone as a return to Cold War-style rhetoric by a country emboldened by petroleum wealth. But Russians say the sharper edge is a reflection of frustration that Russia's views, particularly its opposition to NATO expansion, have been ignored in the West.
Putin's analogy came as a small part of a larger speech in which he unambiguously congratulated Russian veterans of World War II, known here as the Great Patriotic War.
Speaking from a podium in front of Lenin's Mausoleum on Red Square before troops mustered for a military parade, Putin called Victory Day a holiday of "huge moral importance and unifying power" for Russia and went on to enumerate the lessons of that conflict for the world today.
"We do not have the right to forget the causes of any war, which must be sought in the mistakes and errors of peacetime," Putin said.
"Moreover, in our time, these threats are not diminishing," he said as he delved into what one expert said was clearly an allusion to U.S. foreign policy. "They are only transforming, changing their appearance. In these new threats - as during the time of the Third Reich - are the same contempt for human life and the same claims of exceptionality and diktat in the world."
The Kremlin press service declined to clarify the statement, saying Putin's spokesman was unavailable because of the holiday.
But Sergei Markov, director of the Institute of Political Studies, who works closely with the Kremlin, said in a telephone interview that Putin was referring to the United States and NATO. Markov said the comments should be interpreted in the context of a wider, philosophical discussion of the lessons of World War II. The speech also praised the role of the allies of the Soviet Union in defeating Germany.
"He intended to talk about the United States, but not only," Markov said in reference to the sentence mentioning the Third Reich. "The speech said that the Second World War teaches lessons that can be applied in today's world."
The United States, Putin has maintained, is seeking to establish a unipolar world to replace the bipolar balance of power of the Cold War era.
libs and Putin love to pull the Nazi card!
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ May 11 2007, 05:08 AM) [snapback]301382[/snapback]
Once you put it like that it make so much more sense.
If you cherry pick enough you can all have a nice neat little conspiracy scenario. Who cares how many people you have to accuse without the slightest bit of evidence.
QUOTE
If you cherry pick enough you can all have a nice neat little conspiracy scenario. Who cares how many people you have to accuse without the slightest bit of evidence.
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ May 11 2007, 05:08 AM) [snapback]301382[/snapback]
If you cherry pick enough you can all have a nice neat little conspiracy scenario. Who cares how many people you have to accuse without the slightest bit of evidence.
QUOTE(inyerface @ May 11 2007, 12:31 AM) [snapback]301393[/snapback]
That clinches it.
its a start
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ May 11 2007, 05:32 AM) [snapback]301394[/snapback]
That clinches it.
Take your pick. If you’re not convinced by one, take another. Take one, take more, - but understand that even one of the crimes on which this article will focus is enough to make a strong and damning case against the Bush administration. Examine the crime scenes and wonder why no one has been held accountable. Think about the crimes that have been committed and wonder why no one in government, not a single person, has had to answer for any of them. On the contrary, every person directly involved in these crimes is still in his/her position, or has been promoted or publicly acclaimed for a job well done.
These crimes were far from perfect. They were overtly committed, and they left enough clues behind to delight the most jaded of investigators. The smoking guns were there for all to see, and yet, and yet, nothing. Actually at some of the crime scenes there were smoking guns strewn all over the place. Of course the American news media failed to take notice because their mission as it stands now is to simply repeat what is told to them by official or corporate sources.
And so, we’ll narrow the list to our Top Three picks of the most dangerous crimes that directly involve the George W. Bush Cartel and their cadre of abettors. Take your pick.
THE 9/11 ATTACKS - WHAT WE KNOW:
The Bush administration was comprised of a group of people who had published a radical foreign policy. Elements of this policy include what is now known as the Bush preemptive doctrine. When Paul Wolfowitz first created this policy for the George H. W Bush administration it was dismissed as insane. This group of people created an agenda and a strategy to advance it. This group openly stated ”Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor. Domestic politics and industrial policy will shape the pace and content of transformation as much as the requirements of current missions.“ The Bush administration was comprised of people who had a clear and public MOTIVE for creating or enabling the attacks of 9/11. This is a issue that should be addressed by our media, our lawmakers, our citizens and the rest of the world.
Every procedure that was in place to deal with domestic hijackings was ignored on the day of the attacks.
Why did the Secret Service feel that there was no need to protect George W. Bush?
George Bush resisted an official inquiry into the worst national disaster since Pearl Harbor for 18 months. Any reasonable person would want to know what happened and they would want to make sure that there were no traitors in our mists. It was reasonable to consider the possibilities that the people who planned an attack like this had inside help. A president would want this checked out. George W. Bush wanted no investigation. He already had an official story and was quickly passed on to the press.
Every bit of evidence at Ground Zero and the Pentagon was confiscated and destroyed, and not preserved as crime scene evidence. This in itself is a crime. No need to look further. This is not in dispute. The George W. Bush is responsible for ordering or allowing the destruction of crime scene evidence.
There is not a shred of evidence that a 757 hit the Pentagon. All films from security cameras at the scene were confiscated and never seen again. The few frames of video from the Pentagon security camera were leaked to the public from an anonymous source in the Pentagon. When information is leaked from the Pentagon during a heightened state of emergency it is cause for concern. Neither the administration or the press question this breech of security. This is a clear indication of an intentional leak designed to sell the official story. If a 757 had hit the Pentagon they would have released the videos that were confiscated.
The hole made in the Pentagon crash is far too small for a 757 to have made.
Dozens of bin Laden family members were hurried out of the country without FBI interrogation immediately after the attacks.
None of the alleged hijackers was on any passenger list of the hijacked planes.
Eyewitness accounts describe a windowless, blue plane hitting the WTC.
Someone placed ‘put’ orders on the two hijacked airlines before the attacks, and stood to net huge stock market profits.
The Twin Towers both collapsed at free fall speed in the manner of a planned demolition, with visible explosions occurring in sequence on floors never hit by the planes.
The owner of the WTC admitted that Tower 7 was ‘taken down’ (intentionally demolished) by the Fire Department. THIS IS A CONFESSION! DO WE NEED MORE EVIDENCE?
Condoleezza Rice lied under oath to the Kean Commission about the warning memo that stated bin Laden was targeting the US.
Condoleezza Rice lied when she claimed that no one could have imagined an attack using airliners as weapons. NORAD had drilled for such events 2 years before the Bush White House claimed that they never could have imagined it.
George Bush claimed he saw the first plane hit Tower One, when no photos of the crash had been shown on any television screen.
George Bush sat silently in a classroom for seven full minutes after being informed that a second plane had hit the WTC. Why did George W. Bush react to the attacks differently than every other person in the nation? While every American jumped into emergency mode, George W. Bush did not flinch. He was not worried about his own safety or about the security of the nation. Why not?
NORAD did not send up a single interceptor jet despite knowing that four hijackings were taking place.
FBI agents and bomb sniffer dogs went through trash bins in both WTC Towers for weeks prior to the attacks. They were suddenly removed prior to the attack. Some people in our government were trying to do their job, others might have been trying to prevent the job from being done.
Dick Cheney was in charge of a series of drills held on the morning of September 11th, simulating attacks by hijacked airliners on the WTC.
No one in the US government is willing to investigate any of these and hundreds more concerns about this terrible event.
http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/the_smoking...ite_house_.html
These crimes were far from perfect. They were overtly committed, and they left enough clues behind to delight the most jaded of investigators. The smoking guns were there for all to see, and yet, and yet, nothing. Actually at some of the crime scenes there were smoking guns strewn all over the place. Of course the American news media failed to take notice because their mission as it stands now is to simply repeat what is told to them by official or corporate sources.
And so, we’ll narrow the list to our Top Three picks of the most dangerous crimes that directly involve the George W. Bush Cartel and their cadre of abettors. Take your pick.
THE 9/11 ATTACKS - WHAT WE KNOW:
The Bush administration was comprised of a group of people who had published a radical foreign policy. Elements of this policy include what is now known as the Bush preemptive doctrine. When Paul Wolfowitz first created this policy for the George H. W Bush administration it was dismissed as insane. This group of people created an agenda and a strategy to advance it. This group openly stated ”Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor. Domestic politics and industrial policy will shape the pace and content of transformation as much as the requirements of current missions.“ The Bush administration was comprised of people who had a clear and public MOTIVE for creating or enabling the attacks of 9/11. This is a issue that should be addressed by our media, our lawmakers, our citizens and the rest of the world.
Every procedure that was in place to deal with domestic hijackings was ignored on the day of the attacks.
Why did the Secret Service feel that there was no need to protect George W. Bush?
George Bush resisted an official inquiry into the worst national disaster since Pearl Harbor for 18 months. Any reasonable person would want to know what happened and they would want to make sure that there were no traitors in our mists. It was reasonable to consider the possibilities that the people who planned an attack like this had inside help. A president would want this checked out. George W. Bush wanted no investigation. He already had an official story and was quickly passed on to the press.
Every bit of evidence at Ground Zero and the Pentagon was confiscated and destroyed, and not preserved as crime scene evidence. This in itself is a crime. No need to look further. This is not in dispute. The George W. Bush is responsible for ordering or allowing the destruction of crime scene evidence.
There is not a shred of evidence that a 757 hit the Pentagon. All films from security cameras at the scene were confiscated and never seen again. The few frames of video from the Pentagon security camera were leaked to the public from an anonymous source in the Pentagon. When information is leaked from the Pentagon during a heightened state of emergency it is cause for concern. Neither the administration or the press question this breech of security. This is a clear indication of an intentional leak designed to sell the official story. If a 757 had hit the Pentagon they would have released the videos that were confiscated.
The hole made in the Pentagon crash is far too small for a 757 to have made.
Dozens of bin Laden family members were hurried out of the country without FBI interrogation immediately after the attacks.
None of the alleged hijackers was on any passenger list of the hijacked planes.
Eyewitness accounts describe a windowless, blue plane hitting the WTC.
Someone placed ‘put’ orders on the two hijacked airlines before the attacks, and stood to net huge stock market profits.
The Twin Towers both collapsed at free fall speed in the manner of a planned demolition, with visible explosions occurring in sequence on floors never hit by the planes.
The owner of the WTC admitted that Tower 7 was ‘taken down’ (intentionally demolished) by the Fire Department. THIS IS A CONFESSION! DO WE NEED MORE EVIDENCE?
Condoleezza Rice lied under oath to the Kean Commission about the warning memo that stated bin Laden was targeting the US.
Condoleezza Rice lied when she claimed that no one could have imagined an attack using airliners as weapons. NORAD had drilled for such events 2 years before the Bush White House claimed that they never could have imagined it.
George Bush claimed he saw the first plane hit Tower One, when no photos of the crash had been shown on any television screen.
George Bush sat silently in a classroom for seven full minutes after being informed that a second plane had hit the WTC. Why did George W. Bush react to the attacks differently than every other person in the nation? While every American jumped into emergency mode, George W. Bush did not flinch. He was not worried about his own safety or about the security of the nation. Why not?
NORAD did not send up a single interceptor jet despite knowing that four hijackings were taking place.
FBI agents and bomb sniffer dogs went through trash bins in both WTC Towers for weeks prior to the attacks. They were suddenly removed prior to the attack. Some people in our government were trying to do their job, others might have been trying to prevent the job from being done.
Dick Cheney was in charge of a series of drills held on the morning of September 11th, simulating attacks by hijacked airliners on the WTC.
No one in the US government is willing to investigate any of these and hundreds more concerns about this terrible event.
http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/the_smoking...ite_house_.html
This one is bushs fault too........
Why Is Bush Being Blamed for Cheating Dental Students?
Thursday, May 10, 2007
By John Gibson
Evidently a few days ago a delegation of Republican congressmen felt it necessary to let it leak that they met with the president and bravely confronted him on Iraq, telling him, according to NBC News, that Bush had no credibility on Iraq and he should let Gen. Petraeus speak for him.
Today we heard Bush speak about Iraq. He said Petraeus is looking at September to report back on how the surge is going so policymakers can decide to carry on or stand down. He also said that he thought since Congress approved Petraeus as the new commander in Iraq it didn't make sense to avoid giving him the money he needs, which is what the Democrats are doing now.
Bush made sense. But the congressmen were probably right. His polling numbers indicate people aren't listening to Bush anymore. Here's why:
Look at this quote today from a newspaper in Indiana about a cheating scandal at the Indiana University Dental School in which nine students were kicked out of school and 16 were suspended and 21 more were reprimanded. That means that 46 students out of a student body of 95 were involved in the cheating — more than half of IU's dental school.
So what do the academics who are teaching these students have to say for such a high rate of cheating in their institutions? They blame George Bush, of course.
Here's what Dr. Anne Koerber, associate professor of dentistry at the University of Illinois at Chicago, an expert in dental education had to say: "When you have persons in high places who clearly lie about what's happening with weapons of mass destruction... I think the general public gets the idea that anything that makes money is what's right."
Students cheat on a dental college test and the reason is Bush lies about weapons of mass destruction? You can argue about WMD all you want, and even after you reject everything that George Tenet has said and Bob Woodward and Bush himself — as well as the heads of foreign intel services — but when you blame cheating dentists on George Bush it shows you have come off the rails.
What this shows to me is that the left lie machine is very good. People do actually believe everything — everything — is Bush's fault. And I think if they would kill our enemies abroad as effectively as they kill political opponents at home, this country would be much better off.
That's My Word.
I think there might be a conspiracy involving Rove and Cheney on this one!
Why Is Bush Being Blamed for Cheating Dental Students?
Thursday, May 10, 2007
By John Gibson
Evidently a few days ago a delegation of Republican congressmen felt it necessary to let it leak that they met with the president and bravely confronted him on Iraq, telling him, according to NBC News, that Bush had no credibility on Iraq and he should let Gen. Petraeus speak for him.
Today we heard Bush speak about Iraq. He said Petraeus is looking at September to report back on how the surge is going so policymakers can decide to carry on or stand down. He also said that he thought since Congress approved Petraeus as the new commander in Iraq it didn't make sense to avoid giving him the money he needs, which is what the Democrats are doing now.
Bush made sense. But the congressmen were probably right. His polling numbers indicate people aren't listening to Bush anymore. Here's why:
Look at this quote today from a newspaper in Indiana about a cheating scandal at the Indiana University Dental School in which nine students were kicked out of school and 16 were suspended and 21 more were reprimanded. That means that 46 students out of a student body of 95 were involved in the cheating — more than half of IU's dental school.
So what do the academics who are teaching these students have to say for such a high rate of cheating in their institutions? They blame George Bush, of course.
Here's what Dr. Anne Koerber, associate professor of dentistry at the University of Illinois at Chicago, an expert in dental education had to say: "When you have persons in high places who clearly lie about what's happening with weapons of mass destruction... I think the general public gets the idea that anything that makes money is what's right."
Students cheat on a dental college test and the reason is Bush lies about weapons of mass destruction? You can argue about WMD all you want, and even after you reject everything that George Tenet has said and Bob Woodward and Bush himself — as well as the heads of foreign intel services — but when you blame cheating dentists on George Bush it shows you have come off the rails.
What this shows to me is that the left lie machine is very good. People do actually believe everything — everything — is Bush's fault. And I think if they would kill our enemies abroad as effectively as they kill political opponents at home, this country would be much better off.
That's My Word.
I think there might be a conspiracy involving Rove and Cheney on this one!
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ May 10 2007, 10:41 PM) [snapback]301376[/snapback]
cowdoody on both counts. It has been countered on its merits AND the scenario you describe is not at all either necessary or sufficient for the argument you're trying to debunk to obtain.
Please direct me to a site that convincingly de-debunks the Popular Mechanics (Popular Science?) piece.
And what have you done with Nomarchy?
QUOTE
...senior researcher on the piece Benjamin Chertoff is the cousin of Michael Chertoff, Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security.
This means that Benjamin Chertoff was hired to write an article that would receive nationwide attention, about the veracity of the government's explanation of an event that led directly to the creation of Homeland Security, a body that his own cousin now heads.
This means that Benjamin Chertoff was hired to write an article that would receive nationwide attention, about the veracity of the government's explanation of an event that led directly to the creation of Homeland Security, a body that his own cousin now heads.
Please explain how their being cousins (who barely know each other) is relevant to the veracity or accuracy of Benjamin Chertoff's work? The exact logic, I mean.
Alex Jones Responds To Ben Chertoff
http://prisonplanet.tv/audio/090305alexresponds.htm
entire article here
http://prisonplanet.tv/audio/090305alexresponds.htm
http://prisonplanet.tv/audio/090305alexresponds.htm
QUOTE
The bottom line is this, people aren't listening to these people anymore. They're not listening. They're not believing it. The population knows by and large - they may not know all the details, but they know information is being twisted, it's being spun, it's being fabricated, it's being made up, it's being white washed. They know that. Your credibility is at an all time low. It's just that simple. Your credibility is gone. It's now part of the record that the government has been caught Thousands and Thousands of times lying to us.
QUOTE
Bush has paid Tens of Millions for fake blogs, Seventy-Six Million for fake news casts just for Medicaid. Armstrong Williams ... there's dozens and dozens....
entire article here
http://prisonplanet.tv/audio/090305alexresponds.htm
QUOTE
Hearst paid Benjamin Chertoff to write an article supporting the seriously flawed explanation that is based on a practically non-existent investigation of the terror event that directly led to the creation of the massive national security department his cousin now heads. This is exactly the kind of journalism one would expect to find in a dictatorship like that of Saddam Hussein's Iraq. Because the manager of public relations for Popular Mechanics didn't respond to repeated calls from American Free Press, I called Benjamin Chertoff, the magazine's senior researcher, directly. Chertoff said he was the senior researcher of the piece. When asked if he was related to Michael Chertoff, he said I don't know. Clearly uncomfortable about discussing the matter further, he told me that all questions about the article should be put to the publicist - the one who never answers the phone. Benjamin's mother in Pelham, New York, however, was more willing to talk. Asked if Benjamin was related to the new Secretary of Homeland Security, Judy said, Yes, of course, he is a cousin.'
Well, it's a "response" all right. Words uttered. In no way a rebuttal.
Alberto Gozales "responded" too.
Alberto Gozales "responded" too.
In the months just prior to the publication of the article on which this book is based, a radical change in PM’s personnel was orchestrated by the president of Hearst Magazines, Cathleen P. Black. As reporter Christopher Bollyn pointed out, Black is married to Thomas E. Harvey, who has worked for the CIA, the Department of Defense, and the US Information Agency.
Bollyn, describing this Black-orchestrated change at Popular Mechanics as "a brutal take-over," wrote: "In September 2004, Joe Oldham, the magazine’s former editor-in-chief, was replaced by James B. Meigs. In October, a new creative director replaced PM’s 21-year veteran who was given 90 minutes to clear out of his office." In each of the following six months, Bollyn further reporter, three or four more people were similarly dismissed. Accordingly, the suggestion that this book about 9/11 reflects PM’s long tradition of expertise is misleading.
QUOTE
You’ve got a hostile take-over at Popular Mechanics headed by a woman whose husband has worked for the CIA and Department of Defense. Following this take-over, the 25-year-old cousin of the director of Homeland Security serves as the "senior researcher" for an article that defends every last aspect of the government’s fairy tale about 9/11. They’re extremely thorough and fact-driven, yet they can’t even find out if these guys are related?!?
http://us-amnesia.blogspot.com/2007/04/exc...-debunking.html
This is STILL not a rebuttal to the content of the article. It's gossip.
Griffin points out that there has been no independent investigation of 9/11. What we have are a report by a political commission headed by Bush administration factotum Philip Zelikow, a NIST report produced by the Bush administration’s Department of Commerce, and a journalistic account produced by Popular Mechanics. Various scientists who work for the federal government or are dependent on government grants have issued speculative statements in behalf of the official conspiracy theory, but have not produced meaningful evidence in its behalf.
The relevant skeptics of the official story are approximately 100 independent researchers consisting of experts and professors whose careers have required them to deal with evidence and its analysis. Their individual contributions to 9/11 analysis can be found online.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17422.htm
Cathleen P. Black, who has family connections to the CIA and Pentagon and is president of Hearst Magazines, the owner of Popular Mechanics, fired the magazine’s editor-in-chief and several senior veteran staff members and installed James B. Meigs and Benjamin Chertoff, a cousin of Bush administration factotum Michael Chertoff. It was Meigs and Benjamin Chertoff who produced the Popular Mechanics report that Griffin has eviscerated.
The relevant skeptics of the official story are approximately 100 independent researchers consisting of experts and professors whose careers have required them to deal with evidence and its analysis. Their individual contributions to 9/11 analysis can be found online.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17422.htm
QUOTE
The fragility of the NIST report is astonishing. The report succeeded because people accepted its assurances without examination.
Griffin shows that the Popular Mechanics report consists of special pleading, circular reasoning, appeals to the authority of the NIST report, straw men, and internal contradictions in the report itself.
There is not space in a review to present the evidence Griffin has mustered. A few highlights should suffice to alert readers to the possibility that the Bush administration has lied about more than Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction.
The two WTC towers did not collapse. They blew up and disintegrated, as did WTC 7. There is an enormous energy deficit in every account that rules out the use of explosives. Gravitational energy is insufficient to explain the pulverization of the buildings and contents and the severing of the 47 massive center core steel columns in each of the towers into convenient lengths to be picked up and loaded onto trucks; much less can gravitational energy account for the pulverization of the top floors of the towers and ejection of steel beams hundreds of feet horizontally just prior to the disintegration of the floors below.
Damage caused by airliners and short-lived limited fires cannot explain the disintegration of the buildings. The massive steel skeletons of the towers comprised a gigantic heat sink that wicked away whatever heat the limited fires produced.
NIST’s final report stated that of the steel available to it for examination, “only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 degrees Celsius” (482 degrees Fahrenheit). The self-cleaning ovens in our home kitchens reach temperatures higher than this, and the ovens do not melt or deform.
Griffin shows that the Popular Mechanics report consists of special pleading, circular reasoning, appeals to the authority of the NIST report, straw men, and internal contradictions in the report itself.
There is not space in a review to present the evidence Griffin has mustered. A few highlights should suffice to alert readers to the possibility that the Bush administration has lied about more than Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction.
The two WTC towers did not collapse. They blew up and disintegrated, as did WTC 7. There is an enormous energy deficit in every account that rules out the use of explosives. Gravitational energy is insufficient to explain the pulverization of the buildings and contents and the severing of the 47 massive center core steel columns in each of the towers into convenient lengths to be picked up and loaded onto trucks; much less can gravitational energy account for the pulverization of the top floors of the towers and ejection of steel beams hundreds of feet horizontally just prior to the disintegration of the floors below.
Damage caused by airliners and short-lived limited fires cannot explain the disintegration of the buildings. The massive steel skeletons of the towers comprised a gigantic heat sink that wicked away whatever heat the limited fires produced.
NIST’s final report stated that of the steel available to it for examination, “only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 degrees Celsius” (482 degrees Fahrenheit). The self-cleaning ovens in our home kitchens reach temperatures higher than this, and the ovens do not melt or deform.
Cathleen P. Black, who has family connections to the CIA and Pentagon and is president of Hearst Magazines, the owner of Popular Mechanics, fired the magazine’s editor-in-chief and several senior veteran staff members and installed James B. Meigs and Benjamin Chertoff, a cousin of Bush administration factotum Michael Chertoff. It was Meigs and Benjamin Chertoff who produced the Popular Mechanics report that Griffin has eviscerated.
inyer, THAT IS NOT A REBUTTAL. Do you know what a rebuttal is?
give us one, besides "no it wasn't like that"
Here's one 'rebuttal':
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pop_mech/rep...mechanics.htm#1
FJ, help me out and let me know if it is an actual rebuttal.
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pop_mech/rep...mechanics.htm#1
FJ, help me out and let me know if it is an actual rebuttal.
Thermite
A few seconds before the south tower collapsed, a stream molten iron poured out of the building.
You can watch the molten iron in both normal and slow motion at youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tkBhlpAxko
The same video is here in WMV format:
http://www.iamthewitness.com/video/ThermiteAtSouthTower.wmv
Jet fuel cannot melt iron, so this is proof that thermite or something similiar was inside the towers.
A few seconds before the south tower collapsed, a stream molten iron poured out of the building.
You can watch the molten iron in both normal and slow motion at youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tkBhlpAxko
The same video is here in WMV format:
http://www.iamthewitness.com/video/ThermiteAtSouthTower.wmv
Jet fuel cannot melt iron, so this is proof that thermite or something similiar was inside the towers.
QUOTE(inyerface @ May 11 2007, 09:41 AM) [snapback]301443[/snapback]
Thermite
A few seconds before the south tower collapsed, a stream molten iron poured out of the building.
You can watch the molten iron in both normal and slow motion at youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tkBhlpAxko
The same video is here in WMV format:
http://www.iamthewitness.com/video/ThermiteAtSouthTower.wmv
Jet fuel cannot melt iron, so this is proof that thermite or something similiar was inside the towers.
How do we know thats iron? Could it not possibly be aluminum from the plane?
explained in the link... aluminum does not look the same
Evidence of Thermite on Core Columns at WTC
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archi...ames;read=87932
Evidence of Thermite on Core Columns at WTC
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archi...ames;read=87932
QUOTE
Because Thermite does not require air, it can react underwater or in an oxygen-starved environment, which may explain the persistent hot spots that existed for weeks in the rubble completely unaffected by the continuous dousing with fire hoses. The scientific literature on Thermite says that the white-hot molten iron and slag it produces can itself prolong and extend the heating and incendiary action.
"As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running," Leslie Robertson, structural engineer responsible for the design of the WTC, told fellow engineers.
Footage taken by WABC-TV of the burning South Tower at 9:53 a.m., immediately before the building collapsed, reveals large amounts of white-hot molten metal, presumably iron, pouring from the 81st floor of the east corner. The amount of spilling molten metal suggests that a pool of molten iron was produced in that area of the building.
While some have suggested that the molten metal was aluminum, this is easily disproved by the fact that molten aluminum appears silver-grey in daylight. The only possible explanation is that the white-hot metal gushing from the South Tower was molten iron and had been produced by a very large amount of Thermite.
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archi...ames;read=88135
"As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running," Leslie Robertson, structural engineer responsible for the design of the WTC, told fellow engineers.
Footage taken by WABC-TV of the burning South Tower at 9:53 a.m., immediately before the building collapsed, reveals large amounts of white-hot molten metal, presumably iron, pouring from the 81st floor of the east corner. The amount of spilling molten metal suggests that a pool of molten iron was produced in that area of the building.
While some have suggested that the molten metal was aluminum, this is easily disproved by the fact that molten aluminum appears silver-grey in daylight. The only possible explanation is that the white-hot metal gushing from the South Tower was molten iron and had been produced by a very large amount of Thermite.
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archi...ames;read=88135
"...But Sergei Markov, director of the Institute of Political Studies, who works closely with the Kremlin, said in a telephone interview that Putin was referring to the United States and NATO. Markov said the comments should be interpreted in the context of a wider, philosophical discussion of the lessons of World War II. The speech also praised the role of the allies of the Soviet Union in defeating Germany.
"He intended to talk about the United States, but not only," Markov said in reference to the sentence mentioning the Third Reich. "The speech said that the Second World War teaches lessons that can be applied in today's world."
Gospodin Markov - Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact ring any bells?
Thank you, noma, yes, -that- is a rebuttal, which I'll take the time to read. So far, I haven't found the first section very convincing, but it IS a rebuttal.
OK, I read about halfway through. Same strawman arguments and insinuations they accuse PM of. A lousy rebuttal, but at least a rebuttal.
Now, why don't YOU quit playing coy, and tell us what among all that you actually believe to be true.
OK, I read about halfway through. Same strawman arguments and insinuations they accuse PM of. A lousy rebuttal, but at least a rebuttal.
Now, why don't YOU quit playing coy, and tell us what among all that you actually believe to be true.
QUOTE(inyerface @ May 11 2007, 10:56 AM) [snapback]301448[/snapback]
explained in the link... aluminum does not look the same
Evidence of Thermite on Core Columns at WTC
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archi...ames;read=87932
Inyer, we've been over this before. You are citing yet another site that is repeating "Professor Jones" as their expert source--the guy who believes in cold fusion, and is big in Mormon circles for his claims to have found definitive evidence that American Indians are the lost 13th tribe of Israel, and proof that Jesus spent a year visiting them after his resurrection. He is still a retired physicist, and he still has no expertise in metallurgy, molten or otherwise.
No matter how many different sites you find this same claim by this same professor Jone, he's still a crackpot. He's a crackpot when you find him on rumormillnews.com, a crackpot when you find him on 911conspiracy.com, a crackpot when you find him on crackpots.com, and YOU are a crackpot for continuing to believe him.
you are using his hobbies to prove he can't test metals?
you're off base
rummy is a crackpot
so is cheney
bush can't even speak English
you're off base
rummy is a crackpot
so is cheney
bush can't even speak English
They are not his "hobbies", they were the credentials offered up as his qualification as an "expert". And yes, when his "hobbies" reflect a high degree of gullibility and a history of poor judgment re scientific evidence, I hold it against him. So should you.
Brigham Young University physics professor
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645200098,00.html
Today, he often finds himself lumped together with them in discussions about the failure of cold fusion.
"It's weird," Jones said. "In those days, it was pretty clear I refuted them."
QUOTE
Jones is not the scientist who claimed cold fusion worked and could supply the world with unlimited, clean and inexpensive energy. That claim was made on March 23, 1989, by University of Utah scientists Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann. The headline in the then-Deseret News the next day was "Fusion discovery at U. could rank as century's greatest achievement."
Jones had studied room-temperature fusion since 1985. He warned Pons, Fleischmann and U. President Chase Peterson two weeks before their announcement that they were wrong.
Jones had studied room-temperature fusion since 1985. He warned Pons, Fleischmann and U. President Chase Peterson two weeks before their announcement that they were wrong.
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645200098,00.html
Today, he often finds himself lumped together with them in discussions about the failure of cold fusion.
"It's weird," Jones said. "In those days, it was pretty clear I refuted them."
QUOTE
His credentials are impeccable. Jones graduated magna spooge laude from BYU in 1973 with a bachelor's degree in physics. He completed a Ph.D. in physics at Vanderbilt University in 1978. Jones also did Ph.D. coursework at Stanford University and post-doctoral research at Cornell University.
judy easily falls for the misinformation campaign.
1. I didn't claim Jones was the one who made the claim of having made cold fusion work. He does, however, believe cold fusion CAN work, and presented papers to that effect as recently as 2002.
2. He has NEVER published anything on the subject of metallurgy in any peer-reviewed journal whatsoever.
3. You may not realize it, but BYU is not a prestigious school, unless you're a football player.
4. What the heck is "magna spooge laude"?
5. How does a degree in theoretical physics qualify him as not only a metallurgist, but one good enough to identify a particular type of molten metal from a poor quality photograph.
I am underwhelmed with any site that would describe this guy's credentials as "impeccable". They appear pretty "peccable" to me.
2. He has NEVER published anything on the subject of metallurgy in any peer-reviewed journal whatsoever.
3. You may not realize it, but BYU is not a prestigious school, unless you're a football player.
4. What the heck is "magna spooge laude"?
5. How does a degree in theoretical physics qualify him as not only a metallurgist, but one good enough to identify a particular type of molten metal from a poor quality photograph.
I am underwhelmed with any site that would describe this guy's credentials as "impeccable". They appear pretty "peccable" to me.
here he is on cspan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdgrDTs_Rdg...ted&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdgrDTs_Rdg...ted&search=
btw, you DID read your own link to the Deseret News, an LDS newspaper, and note Jones' reasons for pursuing this subject, and for Deseret News' interest in Jones?
"In the forum broadcast by C-SPAN, Jones used language that originated with a prophesy by LDS Church founder Joseph Smith in the 1840s. Smith said that at a future time, when the Constitution would be on the brink of ruin, the nation would lean on Latter-day Saints to save it from destruction."
"In the forum broadcast by C-SPAN, Jones used language that originated with a prophesy by LDS Church founder Joseph Smith in the 1840s. Smith said that at a future time, when the Constitution would be on the brink of ruin, the nation would lean on Latter-day Saints to save it from destruction."
So what is your point with the Wikipedia entry? Besides, of course, the classic troll practice of spamming up links in order to waste your opponent's time?
Professor Steven Earl Jones
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/atomic...ic/jones_cv.htm
EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE:
Graduated from Bellevue High School, Bellevue, Washington, with 4.0 scholastic average (A=4.0) in 1967.
B.S. in Physics, Mathematics minor, magna *spooge laude with honors, from Brigham Young University in 1973, retaining Presidential (David O. McKay) Scholarship.
Ph.D. in Physics, Mathematics/Electronics minors from Vanderbilt University in 1978, retaining full Tuition Scholarship and Research Fellowship (1973-1978).
Ph.D. research conducted at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center (1974-1977); course work completed at Stanford University.
Post-doctoral research conducted at Cornell University (CESR) and the Los Alamos Meson Physics Facility.
Conducted research at the Idaho National Engineering Laboratory, EG & G Idaho, Idaho Falls, 1979-1985 (Senior Engineering Specialist).
Principal Investigator for experimental muon-catalyzed fusion 1982-1991 for the U.S. Department of Energy, Division of Advanced Energy Projects.
Spokesman for LAMPF Experiment #727 and co-spokesman for LAMPF Experiments #963 and #1151 (1982 - 1993).
Collaborator in several other experiments, including experiments at TRIUMF (Vancouver, Canada), The National High Energy Laboratory, KEK (Tsukuba, Japan), Rutherford-Appleton Laboratory (Oxford, U.K.), and Kamioka, Japan.
Associate Director, Brigham Young University Center for Fusion Studies, 1989-1994
Search for fusion in condensed matter and deuterium, research for U.S. Department of Energy (May 1986 - December 1991) and for the Electric Power Research Institute (April 1990-June 1993).
AWARDS
David O. McKay Scholarship at Brigham Young University, 1968
National Merit Scholar, 1968
Tuition Scholarship and Research Fellowship at Vanderbilt
University, 1973-1978
Outstanding Young Scholar Award (BYU), 1989
Best of What's New for 1989 (Popular Science), 1989
Creativity Prize (Japanese Creativity Society), 1989
BYU Young Scholar Award (BYU), 1990
Annual Lecturer BYU Chapter of Sigma Xi (1990-1991)
* its artie's setup on the filter that changes it to spooge
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/atomic...ic/jones_cv.htm
EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE:
Graduated from Bellevue High School, Bellevue, Washington, with 4.0 scholastic average (A=4.0) in 1967.
B.S. in Physics, Mathematics minor, magna *spooge laude with honors, from Brigham Young University in 1973, retaining Presidential (David O. McKay) Scholarship.
Ph.D. in Physics, Mathematics/Electronics minors from Vanderbilt University in 1978, retaining full Tuition Scholarship and Research Fellowship (1973-1978).
Ph.D. research conducted at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center (1974-1977); course work completed at Stanford University.
Post-doctoral research conducted at Cornell University (CESR) and the Los Alamos Meson Physics Facility.
Conducted research at the Idaho National Engineering Laboratory, EG & G Idaho, Idaho Falls, 1979-1985 (Senior Engineering Specialist).
Principal Investigator for experimental muon-catalyzed fusion 1982-1991 for the U.S. Department of Energy, Division of Advanced Energy Projects.
Spokesman for LAMPF Experiment #727 and co-spokesman for LAMPF Experiments #963 and #1151 (1982 - 1993).
Collaborator in several other experiments, including experiments at TRIUMF (Vancouver, Canada), The National High Energy Laboratory, KEK (Tsukuba, Japan), Rutherford-Appleton Laboratory (Oxford, U.K.), and Kamioka, Japan.
Associate Director, Brigham Young University Center for Fusion Studies, 1989-1994
Search for fusion in condensed matter and deuterium, research for U.S. Department of Energy (May 1986 - December 1991) and for the Electric Power Research Institute (April 1990-June 1993).
AWARDS
David O. McKay Scholarship at Brigham Young University, 1968
National Merit Scholar, 1968
Tuition Scholarship and Research Fellowship at Vanderbilt
University, 1973-1978
Outstanding Young Scholar Award (BYU), 1989
Best of What's New for 1989 (Popular Science), 1989
Creativity Prize (Japanese Creativity Society), 1989
BYU Young Scholar Award (BYU), 1990
Annual Lecturer BYU Chapter of Sigma Xi (1990-1991)
* its artie's setup on the filter that changes it to spooge
And one more time, would you please repost that, highlighting in great big bold type, what you think qualifies him as an expert in metallurgy and structural engineering?
no, as its not needed... a physics STUDENT can do the testing
--------------------------------------------------------
My eight months of investigation into the claims of FBI whistle blower, Randy Glass, led me to new information about Assistant Attorney General Michael Chertoff. So I was shocked when he was nominated for Director of Homeland Security, and dumbfounded when he skated through his confirmation hearings.
Chertoff is a master of cover-up. He defended a financier of Osama bin Laden and kept him out of jail. He looked the other way during the investigation into the death of White House lawyer Vince Foster. Chertoff advised the White House and CIA on the legality of torture. No one said a word about any of this, and now Chertoff is in Bush's Cabinet as Director of Homeland Security.
The 9/11 Money
The June 20, 2000 Bergen County Record reported that attorney Michael Chertoff defended Dr. Magdy Elamir, a suspected terrorist financier. Dr. Elamir's HMO was sued by the State of New Jersey to recoup $16.7 million in losses. At least $5.7 million was unaccounted for, funneled "to unknown parties ... by means of wire transfers to bank accounts where the beneficial owner of the account is unknown."
Magdy Elamir financially supported the Al Salam Mosque, where the blind Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman preached before he was arrested for his alleged role in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.
This is the same Dr. Magdy Elamir who was featured in the Dateline NBC investigation with Randy Glass. In fact, Glass said he had spoken with Dr. Elamir as part of his under-cover infiltration of the ISI-linked arms dealers. "Dateline" reported that intelligence reports accused Dr. Elamir of having "had financial ties with Osama bin Laden for years." During a recorded telephone conversation with Glass Elamir's brother, Mohamed, tried to purchase "small arms and ammunition."
In the words of attorney Lynne Stewart, even the most despicable deserve representation. But as Stewart knows, unless you have White House connections, defending the despised carries a high price. Stewart faces 30 years in prison for actions taken in defense of the Blind Sheikh. Dr. Elamir was a suspect in a highly-monitored, sensitive operation at the center of the secret history of 9/11. But thanks to Michael Chertoff, Elamir was not charged.
With his dubious background with the Foster case and later in the Elamir investigation, what were Chertoff's credentials for being named Head of Homeland Security?
Official Answer from the Homeland Security website:
As Assistant Attorney General, he helped trace the 9/11 terrorist attacks to the al-Qaida network, and worked to increase information sharing within the FBI and with state and local officials.
i.e. he had helped Bush draft legislation to justify Bush's "War on Terror" including the indefinite detentions and torture that has stained the soul of the country.
http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/chertoffterror.html
------------------------------------------------------
got any credentials on Benjamin Chertoff?
--------------------------------------------------------
My eight months of investigation into the claims of FBI whistle blower, Randy Glass, led me to new information about Assistant Attorney General Michael Chertoff. So I was shocked when he was nominated for Director of Homeland Security, and dumbfounded when he skated through his confirmation hearings.
Chertoff is a master of cover-up. He defended a financier of Osama bin Laden and kept him out of jail. He looked the other way during the investigation into the death of White House lawyer Vince Foster. Chertoff advised the White House and CIA on the legality of torture. No one said a word about any of this, and now Chertoff is in Bush's Cabinet as Director of Homeland Security.
The 9/11 Money
The June 20, 2000 Bergen County Record reported that attorney Michael Chertoff defended Dr. Magdy Elamir, a suspected terrorist financier. Dr. Elamir's HMO was sued by the State of New Jersey to recoup $16.7 million in losses. At least $5.7 million was unaccounted for, funneled "to unknown parties ... by means of wire transfers to bank accounts where the beneficial owner of the account is unknown."
Magdy Elamir financially supported the Al Salam Mosque, where the blind Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman preached before he was arrested for his alleged role in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.
This is the same Dr. Magdy Elamir who was featured in the Dateline NBC investigation with Randy Glass. In fact, Glass said he had spoken with Dr. Elamir as part of his under-cover infiltration of the ISI-linked arms dealers. "Dateline" reported that intelligence reports accused Dr. Elamir of having "had financial ties with Osama bin Laden for years." During a recorded telephone conversation with Glass Elamir's brother, Mohamed, tried to purchase "small arms and ammunition."
In the words of attorney Lynne Stewart, even the most despicable deserve representation. But as Stewart knows, unless you have White House connections, defending the despised carries a high price. Stewart faces 30 years in prison for actions taken in defense of the Blind Sheikh. Dr. Elamir was a suspect in a highly-monitored, sensitive operation at the center of the secret history of 9/11. But thanks to Michael Chertoff, Elamir was not charged.
With his dubious background with the Foster case and later in the Elamir investigation, what were Chertoff's credentials for being named Head of Homeland Security?
Official Answer from the Homeland Security website:
As Assistant Attorney General, he helped trace the 9/11 terrorist attacks to the al-Qaida network, and worked to increase information sharing within the FBI and with state and local officials.
i.e. he had helped Bush draft legislation to justify Bush's "War on Terror" including the indefinite detentions and torture that has stained the soul of the country.
http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/chertoffterror.html
------------------------------------------------------
got any credentials on Benjamin Chertoff?
I was surprised by Chertoff's nomination (and confirmation) not just because of the torture thing, but also because of his lack of experience and his track record of being a very poor administrator.
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ May 11 2007, 05:07 PM) [snapback]301495[/snapback]
I was surprised by Chertoff's nomination (and confirmation) not just because of the torture thing, but also because of his lack of experience and his track record of being a very poor administrator.
Great job Brownie!
QUOTE(inyerface @ May 11 2007, 09:41 AM) [snapback]301443[/snapback]
Thermite
A few seconds before the south tower collapsed, a stream molten iron poured out of the building.
You can watch the molten iron in both normal and slow motion at youtube:
A few seconds before the south tower collapsed, a stream molten iron poured out of the building.
You can watch the molten iron in both normal and slow motion at youtube:
Except you have no proof that's iron.
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ May 11 2007, 12:26 PM) [snapback]301476[/snapback]
4. What the heck is "magna spooge laude"?
Sometimes I forget there's a filter since it doesn't affect my posts.
QUOTE
What the heck is "magna spooge laude"?
Magna c u m laude.
QUOTE(Mizilus @ May 11 2007, 10:47 AM) [snapback]301447[/snapback]
How do we know thats iron? Could it not possibly be aluminum from the plane?
Aluminum USually doesn't glow red or orange... heated or molten, it changes color very little(makes it hard to weld:~)... it's silvery like mercury.
QUOTE(inyerface @ May 11 2007, 10:56 AM) [snapback]301448[/snapback]
explained in the link... aluminum does not look the same
Evidence of Thermite on Core Columns at WTC
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archi...ames;read=87932
Oops... there it is... I should have read ahead. :~)
WTC MOLTEN STEEL
http://www.takeourworldback.com/smokinggun.htm
There are many corroborating sources that reported molten steel in the ruins of the World Trade Center. Another excellent summary of reports, ranging from "cherry red steel" (about 745 degrees C) at a depth of six stories underground that was found six weeks after the attacks, to a steel beam "dripping with the molten steel" to "streams" and "rivers" of molten steel, may be found here at the George Washington blog. The latter includes a link to a New York Times archived article (pay-per-view) stating that Dr. Jonathan Barnett, a professor of fire protection engineering, said that an uncontrollable fire could not explain steel members in the WTC 7 debris pile that appear to have been partly evaporated in extraordinarily high temperatures. The History Bytes blog has yet another first-class summary with a number of named first-hand eyewitness accounts featuring quotes such as "massive amounts of molten steel".
Mark Loizeaux of Controlled Demolition, Inc. of Phoenix, MD., who was involved in the removal of the rubble, was reported as saying that molten steel was found at the basement levels in the ruins of World Trade Center buildings 1, 2 and 7. This was confirmed by journalist William Langewiesche who personally witnessed areas where "steel flowed in molten streams" after "descending deep below street level" (subscribers only link here, but see above George Washington blog for the quotes). As late as February 2002, Bronx firefighter Joe "Toolie" O'Toole saw a crane lift a steel beam vertically from deep within the catacombs of Ground Zero. "It was dripping from the molten steel," he said. Some molten material could have been aluminum, but analysis confirmed significant quantities of iron. Since the existence of molten steel or iron cannot be denied, NIST has even made a (failed) attempt to address the matter in its recently released "FAQ"- scroll down to #13 at this link. Molten steel or iron was also observed pouring from the side of WTC 2 in the minutes prior to its collapse [see pp. 10-16 in the paper at this link].
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ May 11 2007, 01:46 PM) [snapback]301482[/snapback]
And one more time, would you please repost that, highlighting in great big bold type, what you think qualifies him as an expert in metallurgy and structural engineering?
What are your or Chertoff's qualifications?(besides him being a relative of the Homeland Security Chief:~)...
http://www.oilempire.us/popular-mechanics.html
I don't see anything about structural engineering or physics... hmmmn... and a cousin of the Homeland Security Chief... hmmm...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Chertoff
And you find Steven Jones' qualifications "peccable"?...
Hooboy.
I'm having trouble following your logic here, inyer, assuming you have any. There is no dispute that "the pile" (that is, the heap of burning rubble in the basements and sub-basements) burned very hot, for weeks, in a blast furnace type effect.
Are you asserting that the basement was filled with thermite or something, and they kept blowing it up for 3 months? How does whatever your point is fit with Charlie's theories about ladles of molten steel cooling very rapidly?
And while you're at it, doesn't "molten steel or iron was also observed pouring from the side of WTC 2 in the minutes prior to its collapse" directly contradict your own theory of explosive demolition?
Are you asserting that the basement was filled with thermite or something, and they kept blowing it up for 3 months? How does whatever your point is fit with Charlie's theories about ladles of molten steel cooling very rapidly?
And while you're at it, doesn't "molten steel or iron was also observed pouring from the side of WTC 2 in the minutes prior to its collapse" directly contradict your own theory of explosive demolition?
no
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