If anything was Pearl Harbor it was the FIRST WTC attack. Clinton just didn't declare war.

Nope. It was just another civil crime action.

And those guys got arrested and convicted and are attending the Springtime Celebration Ball in their cell block as we speak.

Osama's still out there.

Osama who?

Yeah, worldwide terror was really slowed by arresting an old blind man. Now we can finish the job by finding a sick old man that can't even appear on videotape to prove he's alive.

If they were all in jail, how did they pull off 9/11?

Commoffit you two.

The death penalty doesn't deter crime and these are crimes committed by the perpetrators certain of their own death.

How do you suggest they be fought and overcome ? Kill as many of those ragheads as we can and see if that makes things better ?

How much of a holocaust are you willing to commit to achieve success ?

War in Iraq is certainly doing nothing to improve any thing, and Afghanistan's just as poor and backward and rough on women as ever albeit with a better opium crop.

We're in greater danger from these guys now than before and you guys keep this ipseity up.

I gotta tell you such persistence in the face of reality is remarkable.

Not admirable, but remarkable.

I think the only real historical parrallel was that last Pharoe deciding what the country really needed to secure progress was another pyrimid.

Gotta kill the right ones, but YES. Kill 'em. There just isn't anywhere to hide, so we might as well kill them NOW rather than later. We SHOULD have killed them after the FIRST WTC attack and then there might not have been a SECOND attack killing 3000 CIVILIANS.

Gimmee an address, and I'll see what I can do for you.

Until then, let's assume the 'right ones' - whatever the hell that means - are surrounded by at least a few dozen 'wrong ones'.

Now tell me how to kill them.

And do it without making a half-dozen 'wrong ones' turn into 'right ones' each time I do it.

You're offereing a chance to sow the dragon's teeth each time I kill one.

Perpetual war or worse.

Yeah, we should understand them more, and negotiate.

Clinton had an address and somebody willing to deliver. Too bad, too late.

IOW, surrender.

He deliverred, verily, even a cruise missile isn't instantaneous.

I recall much gnashing of teeth over a DNA stain concurrently. I wonder how many of those guys still think the blue dress was more important.

The DNA just proved Clinton a liar and saved a couple women from being disparaged by the Clinton personal destruction machine. Bin Laden on the other hand:

http://www.ashbrook.org/books/0895260743.html



In Losing bin Laden you’ll learn:

* The new evidence that Clinton knew about Sudan’s offers to arrest bin Laden—and why he ignored them.
* The never-before-told story of the Saudi government attempt to assassinate bin Laden.
* Why Bill Clinton refused to meet with his first director of Central Intelligence.
* Drawn from secret Sudanese intelligence files, the never-before-told story of Bin Laden’s role in shooting down America’s Black Hawk helicopters in Mogadishu, Somalia—and how Clinton manipulated the news media to keep the worst off America’s TV screens.
* How Clinton ignored intelligence and offers of cooperation against bin Laden from Afghanistan’s Northern Alliance.
* How Bill Clinton scuttled a secret offer from the United Arab Emirates to arrest bin Laden
* The 1993 World Trade Center attack—why Clinton refused to believe it had been bombed; why the CIA was kept out of the investigation; and how one of the FBI’s most trusted informants was actually a double agent working for bin Laden Why the CIA never funded bin Laden—despite the liberal myths.
* How Clinton ignored Yemen’s pleas for help in arresting bin Laden—in 1993.
* The untold story of a respected Congressman who repeatedly warned Clinton officials about bin Laden in 1993—and why he was ignored.
* Revealed for the first time: how Clinton and a Democratic Senator stopped the CIA from hiring Arabic translators—while phone intercepts from bin Laden remained untranslated.
* How the Predator spy plane—which spotted bin Laden three times—was grounded by bureaucratic infighting.
* Plus much more, including, appendices of secret documents and photos, as well as the established links between bin Laden and Saddam Hussein’s Iraq.

Losing bin Laden is a dramatic, page-turning read, a riveting account of a terror war that bin Laden openly declared, but that Clinton left largely unfought. With a pounding narrative, up-close characters and detailed scenes, it takes you inside the Oval Office, the White House Situation Room and within some of the deadliest terrorist cells that America has ever faced. If Clinton had fought back, the attacks on September 11, 2001 might never have happened.

Losing bin Laden is a story—and one hell of a lesson—

How does it stack up in the light of recent developments?

I mean, the only decent intelligence was from a man caught under Clintons watch, and his information was ignored in favor of Chilabi's paid minions, who are now completely discredited.

I just can't see that Clinton was responsible given that they took the threat more seriously than Bush did. Bush's agenda was always Iraq, and was wrong.

Now we've got both Iran and North Korea playing with nukes.

We haven't made the world safer, on the contrary...

NK actually got nuclear help from Clinton. We lost Iran as an ally under Carter. How soon we forget.

Really? The Clinton Administration provided NK with know-how and materials and 'encouragement' to develop nuclear weapons, right?



Huh?

1994 agreement. look it up. Reactors for peace and non-proliferation.

I've posted Carter's betrayal of the Shah, as well as how he profited.

The Shah was over thrown because David Rockefeller was,against gentle advice, running the family banking empire personally and foolishly (he’s very powerful but not too bright) made bad loans to the Shah who equally foolishly was reneging on the loans (which amounted to personal loans) not understanding screwing with the Rockefeller clan IS screwing with our government.

Henry Kissinger the Rockefeller family one-man brain trust and vassal (Henry has worked for them all of his professional career, including running the Brothers Fund for years and for 17 years at Harvard, their personal school, the program where he tutored and cultivated the children of Middle East Potentates and right wing South American elitist families in special seminars…designed
with future political control of those areas in mind.)

The Shaw wouldn't pay up and Kissinger and the CIA arranged his overthrow. The crazy cleric they dug up in France turned out to be a real fundamentalist, (unlike idiot flunkeys like Falwell) and Iranian patriot, who doublecrossed them and wouldn't pay or play ball.

Kissinger AND David Rockefeller then, based on a highly classified CIA white paper (Carter never saw it) gathered by some old SAVAK operatives and assets, which indicated the Iranians fundamentalist had arranged to seize our embassy as hostage for the Shah (he had assets in Swiss banks and Europe in general they wanted) if we sheltered him, arranged to have him flown to a New York Hospital.

The Iranian fundamentalist followed up as the white paper indicated and seized our embassy. The very next day, as we were learning of the event, the government ordered ALL Iranian assets in America seized stipulating the Rockefeller Bank would be in charge of those assets.

David Rockefeller got his money back plus retained hundreds of millions of Iranian government and private assets in access of what would have been garnered if there were no problem with the loans David Rockefeller arranged and has not repaid those excess millions as of today.

Jimmy Carter just happened to be the President and was mostly in the dark about the whole affair except for deceptive reports fed him by the CIA, Zbig (another family flunky) and Kissinger.

That's the real story of how we got to where we are in our relations with Iran. We first foisted the Shah and his father on them because we didn’t want a nationalist government in Iran( with the SAVAK the most viscous secret police organization in the world that we, the CIA trained) then axed him because he wouldn't pay his debts to the Rockefeller bank; gave them another tyrant who also would not pay or play. Therefore we (the shadow government) arranged for Rockefeller to grab Iranian assets in America, never mid much of it from Iranian sources who were little involved in the whole mess. They have little or no reason to like or trust the American ruling elite.

Trying to lay the blame off on Carter is either cheap or based on a lack of knowledge of the dynamics of the fall of the Shah and rise of the Iranian fundementalist government.

hee hee. Always got a good conspiracy.

It's a bit disconcerting that the "conspiracies" seem to be proving truer than the lame government expanations and prevocations.

I don't want to believe them, but when Chilabi is made oil minister, and no weapons AT ALL are found, gas prices are up...

This is getting to be downright...

something.

It's not good neither.

Proving true isn't saying proving true.

I can't believe libs can ask for higher gas taxes, not want to drill anywhere, and complain about the prices too.

gas prices are up

Not even a good conspiracy, the facts are available these days, you could research them if you were inclined, which you're probably not. You like blasting Carter too much. Also, if it were not in the public arena, thanks to FOIA and squealers, and I knew something of it I'd not mention it.

More Twaddle

One word.

Conservation.

You can have your conspiracy. I've already posted mine. The fact is Carter was an impotent little man that wasted time scheduling the WH tennis courts and helped spread malaise instead of getting rid of it. A nice man the NEVER EVER should have been placed in charge of the US.

Hey, if every Green and Dem parked their car we'd be set. Heck, then all the lecturing might not even sound so hollow.

Yeah, sure. And if every Republican became unattached to the oil money tit tomorrow, then they'd invest in publc transportation so that all the Greens and Dems could put away their cars.

As it is they are busy cutting funding.

Maybe then your reasoning would not appear so sophomoric.

and shallow.

If you're conserving then you don't need to be concerned about the price of gas.

Even public transport requires energy. You rail against all manner of energy, profit, and globalization while you drive your foreign gas powered car.

Sorry, but people don't use the public transport we have now, not even here in the blue part of AZ.

Of course it does, but much less

That would be the point of conservation.

Your argument is ridiculous. In cities where there is decent public transit, it most certainly IS used.

I can.

Our Senior Resident Cynic has spoken.

What am I again .... oh yeah, the Resident Optimist.

Kewl post, Grigor.

Should "Rockefeller" replace Bilderberg for the theorists?

Your theory doesn't sound so dark & farfetched to me.

It's not, it's like most issues of real import; just follow the money.

"Bilderbergers" prime players have names, addresses and histories and are a widely varying group of individuals from pretty good guys to real stinkers. For most extremely wealthy people and their squires acquisition is a game and the bottom line the score card. It's how they pass their days. They tend to forget that 99. 99999 percent of the world can't play and that most of them had pirates for ancestors.

I wonder who screwed this up? Let's give them the Medal of Freedom. (Freedom from any responsibility or accountability)

Another Lost Opportunity


A convicted terrorist was providing U.S. officials with very specific information about a terrorist attack three months before 9/11.


WEB EXCLUSIVE
By Michael Isikoff and Mark Hosenball
Newsweek


Updated: 6:03 p.m. ET April 28, 2005April 27 - In the spring of 2001, one of the U.S. government’s most valuable terror informants gave the FBI a far more alarming account of Al Qaeda plans to attack inside the United States than has ever been publicly disclosed, according to newly available court documents.


Algerian expatriate Ahmed Ressam, whose sentencing for a Millennium-eve plot to blow up the Los Angeles airport was unexpectedly postponed today, told bureau interrogators nearly four years ago that Al Qaeda commander Abu Zubaydah had been discussing plans to smuggle terrorist operatives and explosives into the country for the purpose of launching a strike on U.S. soil, the documents show.

The fresh documents, released in federal court in Seattle in recent days, shed new light on an issue that dominated last year’s hearings by the September 11 commission: precisely how much did the U.S. government know about Al Qaeda plans to strike inside the country in the summer of 2001 when the attacks on the World Trade Towers and Pentagon were in their final stages?

Ressam was scheduled to be sentenced today for his December 1999 attempt to smuggle a rental car filled with explosives across the Canadian border. He planned to use them to blow up Los Angeles airport on the eve of the New Year’s Eve 2000 celebrations. But after a dramatic hearing, in which prosecutors accused Ressam of ceasing his cooperation with the FBI two years ago and jeopardizing their cases against two terror defendants he had previously identified, U.S. Judge John Coughenour delayed the sentencing hearing so that Ressam could reconsider his stand. “I hope it’s not lost on Mr. Ressam, we need to see something happen in the next few months,” said Judge Coughenour.


Until his apparent change of heart, Ressam had been considered one of the U.S. government’s prized catches in the fight against terrorism, a hardened terrorist operative who had access to the highest levels of Al Qaeda but chose to cooperate with the FBI in the spring of 2001 when confronted with the prospect of spending the rest of his life in prison.

Ressam’s information helped authorities break up violent jihadi networks on two continents and jail suspected members of Canadian- and U.S.-based cells. Even John McKay, the U.S. attorney in Seattle who has complained about Ressam’s recent falling out with the government, confirmed that the original information he provided was an important boon to prosecutors, particularly about Al Qaeda tradecraft. “He did give us very good information,” McKay said.

Perhaps no better sign of that was the inclusion of some of Resssam’s information in the now famous presidential daily briefing (PDB)—entitled “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S.”—that was presented to President Bush by the CIA on Aug. 6, 2001.

The fact that Ressam’s information was the basis for at least part of the PDB to Bush first became known last year when the 9/11 commission hearings forced the White House to make the long-disputed document public. But it turns out, according to the new court documents, the information from Ressam that was contained in the PDB was watered down and seemed far more bland than what the Algerian terrorist was actually telling the FBI.


In the course of a debriefing by FBI interrogators on May 30, 2001, Ressam talked with some detail about his experiences in Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan in 1998 and 1999 and his many dealings with Abu Zubaydah, then one of Osama bin Laden’s top deputies, according to a declassified, highly detailed summary of Ressam’s 72 debriefings by government agents that was entered into his court record last week by defense lawyers.



“Abu Zubaydah asked Mr. Ressam to send him original Canadian passports so Abu Zubaydah could get people to America,” Ressam told the FBI that day, according to the summary. “Abu Zubaydah wanted an operation in the U.S. Abu Zubaydah also talked to Mr. Ressam about need to get explosives into U.S. for operation, but this wasn’t re: Mr. Ressam’s operation,” meaning explosives that could be used for an attack other than the one planned for the Los Angeles airport. The debriefing report went on to say: “Mr. Ressam does not know if any [explosives] made it to U.S. Once possible operation initiated, operators would not talk about it to anyone, including Abu Zubaydah.”


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7658468/site/newsweek/page/2/

"told bureau interrogators nearly four years ago that Al Qaeda commander Abu Zubaydah had been discussing plans to smuggle terrorist operatives and explosives into the country for the purpose of launching a strike on U.S. soil, the documents show."


Just like the bush cult to snuggle trrristststs.

Reagan and daddy Bush did, why not Jr?

LIHOP.

So there is a book about bush losing bin laden? Well after he seemingly totally turned AWOL's "presidency" around?

Sometimes I have no idea what you're talking about.

Well gee, bin laden is this big huge deal, go git 'em bush comes into office and the entire government and military goes to sleep? The Cole incident was perpetrated by al queda/bin laden but instead of being on top of things ol AWOL and condiliar rice want to ignore warnings and real intelligence, unlike the WMD variety, and wait for a windfall the likes of which no one has seen since Pearl Harbor?

What was expected was a traditional hijacking.

Seems to me ol clinto might have actually made more of an effort than AWOL to do something about al queda. Ya ask me I say f__k it. I dont care which arab prince has his effin jet parked in an al queda camp. Eff it and nuke 'em. As if you effers would have supported him had he done something more. No. All of that kind of sh_t is reserved from the folks that look to benefit the most from it and they're gonna wanna do it right and prolong the whole thing so as to maximize profit.

I think clinto should have done something about saddam to give the fascists less of a chance to rape us blind like they are now.

Its funny to hear buslovers talk about clinton and bin laden when the bush cult has business ties with the bin laden family.


Luckily F9-11 is coming on Showtime this summer so no one has to take my word for it.

Or a little terminal bombing or something. A few hundred casualties at most. I think that they were as surprised as everyone else when it turned out so big.

So they just Played Dumb.

Yes. Ill give you/them that.

Just the same they were going to use that to invade I®aq. They were itching for an excuse. It was going to happen no matter what. Ol bin laden couldnt have given them a better gift.