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inyerface
QUOTE (arebuntz @ Jan 16 2009, 09:07 AM) *
Oh yes, a "white plane" flying around NYC where there are three major airports and many more smaller airports is shocking! THat proves it was a military plane and in control of the two commercial airliners. You got that one nailed down good inyer...



CNN ID'd the plane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSe1OERJOyE

that's a no fly zone, genius

keep proving your ignorance... you got that nailed down.

or are you some kind of misinformation agent?
inyerface
QUOTE
There is so much that is amazing (in the same sense that witnessing a tsunami or a hydrogen bomb test is amazing) about these last eight years and the two decades preceding them, but if you're looking for something to top the list, consider the fact that the regressive right in America has now been reduced to using wholesale incompetence, gross negligence and catastrophic outcomes as its alibi. Think of how ugly and deep the real crime you're hiding must be if those are your diversionary tactics.


http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/19797
beasty
QUOTE (inyerface @ Jan 16 2009, 10:18 AM) *
CNN ID'd the plane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSe1OERJOyE

that's a no fly zone, genius

keep proving your ignorance... you got that nailed down.

or are you some kind of misinformation agent?


Nowhere do they say it had any ability to control passenger jets. Get the tinfoil beanie on.
inyerface

its a military command plane watching everything

the jet hitting the tower "has no windows"
inyerface
Air defense officials heard joking, saying “We have smart terrorists today”
Friday, Jan 16th, 2009

Newly uncovered audio from recordings of NORAD staff responding to the airliner hijackings on 9/11 may provide more evidence to suggest air defense officials were under the impression that the attacks were part of ongoing drills and exercises.

NORAD–the North American Aerospace Defense Command–is the military organization responsible for monitoring and defending the airspace of North America. Its Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS), based in Rome, New York, is responsible for monitoring and protecting 500,000 square miles of airspace above the northeast U.S., including the airspace over New York City and Washington, DC.

The recording in question contains the voices of staff at NEADS as they learn of the hijacking of United 175, the second plane to crash into the World Trade Center.

Firstly, the men are clearly heard laughing and joking about the hijackings, a very strange thing to do in the face of an all out terrorist suicide attack.

One officer says “That’s it, I’m not flying with United or American any more,” amongst the laughter another responds “I never thought I would have wished for ValuJet to come back.”

One of the officers later states “I’m glad I’m not flying today,” to which the answer is, “Don’t worry Jim, we’ll carjack you on the way home.” Two minutes later the men are talking about stock they own.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWdxFdpYF_8

Another key part of the audio comes as the officers attempt to find a transponder signal for flight 175. One officer states “I’m looking for a squawk” — military jargon for a transponder signal from the aircraft — A second officer remarks “We have smart terrorists today, they are not giving them a chance to squawk”.

What does this officer mean?

His use of the word “today” indicates that terrorist hijackings of airliners are a daily occurrence. In this sense it is more likely that he is referring to previous drills of hijackings, which we know were ongoing in the days and weeks leading up to the attacks on 9/11, as well as on the actual day.

Furthermore, who is the “they” that the officer refers to? Are the terrorists “they”? — ie “They (the terrorists) are not giving them (the aircraft/pilots) the chance to squawk”.

Or are “they” another group, military officers running a drill perhaps, that are not giving the fictional terrorists the chance to squawk, thus making the drill harder?

Could these men, officers who were supposed to defend American airspace, have been under the impression that what they were seeing was a part of the annual “Vigilant Guardian” exercise, an air defense drill simulating a hijacking and an attack on the United States on the very day of 9/11?

It is not so hard to imagine, given that multiple personnel at NORAD and NEADS are on record as having admitted they originally thought the attacks were part of the drill.

Furthermore, according to Larry Arnold, who was the commanding general of NORAD’s Continental U.S. Region, the Vigilant Guardian exercise was only canceled after the second World Trade Center tower was hit at 9:03 a.m., a timeline which dovetails exactly with the above clip.

The recordings, which captured events on the operations floor at NEADS throughout the day of September 11, 2001, were made public In April 2006 as part of a Freedom of Information request.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/further-norad-...of-a-drill.html
Repub_Bub
QUOTE (inyerface @ Jan 16 2009, 02:07 PM) *
its a military command plane watching everything

the jet hitting the tower "has no windows"

So, there wasn't anyone on board then?

Can't imagine a coupla hundred folks boarding an airplane without windows. Unless they were commanded to, or remotely condrolled by... the military.
smile.gif
inyerface
the old switcheroo
beasty
QUOTE (Repub_Bub @ Jan 16 2009, 02:23 PM) *
So, there wasn't anyone on board then?

Can't imagine a coupla hundred folks boarding an airplane without windows. Unless they were commanded to, or remotely condrolled by... the military.
smile.gif



If it's on Youtube and Prison planet it has to be true.
inyerface
QUOTE
The recordings, which captured events on the operations floor at NEADS throughout the day of September 11, 2001, were made public In April 2006 as part of a Freedom of Information request.
Repub_Bub
QUOTE (beasty @ Jan 16 2009, 02:25 PM) *
If it's on Youtube and Prison planet it has to be true.

That's what I was thinkin'....maybe Inyer will give us some links.
inyerface
No mention of a large, commercial-class aircraft loitering in the restricted airspace of lower
Manhattan during the strikes on the WTC towers will be found in the 9/11 Commission Report.
It does not appear in any version of the Official Story. It is largely unknown even in critical
studies of 9/11. Yet substantial evidence exists to support its presence coincident with the
attacks, actually orbiting in close proximity to the towers for several minutes while the North
Tower burned and the South Tower was struck. Photography, video footage and eyewitness
accounts, including FDNY transcripts and mainstream media audio, confirm this fact.

Why is this significant? Let us consider the commercial air traffic on a typical Tuesday morning
over New York City. There are three major airports servicing the city: La Guardia and JFK
International to the east, and Newark International across the Hudson to the west. Normal
holding patterns for these airports do not intersect the borough of Manhattan at any point. Lower
Manhattan is, and was on the morning of 9/11/01, a low-altitude flight-restricted (no fly) zone
for commercial jets, as designated by the FAA, for the obvious reason that heavy, fast-moving
aircraft and tall buildings pose mutual hazards. Air traffic near the WTC towers was doubly
restricted, with a minimum ceiling extending two thousand feet above the towers (3,300 feet)
within a radius of one nautical mile, excepting only police aviation without special permit. These
were the VFR (visual flight rules) parameters in effect on the morning of 9/11. Once WTC1 was
hit, the black smoke plume expanding southeast from the tower would pose an additional threat
to navigation.

No avoidance warning from Air Traffic Control would be necessary, as no rational commercial
pilot (no matter how curious) would risk his aircraft, crew or passengers in a "fly-by" of the
burning North Tower. But in this anonymous Camera Planet segment we see a large, twin-jet
aircraft (757/767-class) doing just that at approximately 8:58am (assuming the time signature is
uncorrected by one hour), five minutes before WTC2 will be struck. Even disregarding the
indicated time, as WTC1 is burning and WTC2 is not, the segment is clearly recorded between
8:46am and 9:03am. Note this white aircraft with dark engines and vertical stabilizer is not the
aircraft that will impact WTC2.

http://911review.org/brad.com/batcave/WTC-...cise_plane.html
inyerface
No Ordinary Plane
Again, I must emphasize: this is no ordinary plane. The E-4B's official designation is the National Emergency Airborne Command Post (NEACP), pronounced "knee-cap." But the aircraft is more commonly known as the "doomsday plane," because its premier function is to serve as a flying command, control and communications (C3) center in the event of a national emergency­­­or nuclear war. When the president travels on Air Force One, an E-4B usually follows behind the presidential entourage. Unlike Air Force One, however, the E-4B can be refueled in midair and so has considerably greater range. For this reason, when the president goes abroad on long trips he occasionally flies on an E-4B to save travel time. The plane also doubles as a mobile office for the Secretary of Defense. Recently, for example, when the newly appointed Defense Secretary Robert Gates traveled to London for talks with Prime Minister Tony Blair, he rode on an E-4B. According to various reports, his predecessor, Donald Rumsfeld, often used the plane, and much preferred it.

A recent article in the Air Force Civil Engineer describes the E-4B as "a truly amazing" aircraft, and provides more details about its impressive specs.[9] The $250 million dollar aircraft has all of the advanced electronics needed for world-wide communication. If Air Force One can be accurately described as a flying White House, then, the E-4B is a substitute pentagon. The plane's electronics cover the full radio spectrum, from extremely low frequency (ELF) to high frequency (UHF). Which enables the E-4B to communicate with all US military commands, world-wide, including tactical and strategic forces, naval ships, planes, nuclear-armed missiles, even submarines. In short, the E-4B is a fully equipped communications platform and can serve as an airborne command center for all US military forces in a national crisis.

http://www.rense.com/general76/missing.htm



QUOTE
Catch-22: The Need for a New Investigation
Although Linda Brookhart's photo provides sufficient detail to positively ID the mystery plane, the short segment from the Discovery Channel docudrama is extremely important corroborating evidence.
Mizilus
Oh c'mon. There is no precedent at all of the pentagon having anything to do with false flag operations. At all ever. The pentagon itself has never sought out conflict on it's own.

rolleyes.gif
beasty
QUOTE (Repub_Bub @ Jan 16 2009, 02:32 PM) *
That's what I was thinkin'....maybe Inyer will give us some links.



Look it's a picture of a plane. GW musta done it. rolleyes.gif
inyerface
"A society whose citizens refuse to see and investigate the facts, who refuse to believe that their government and their media will routinely lie to them and fabricate a reality contrary to verifiable facts, is a society that chooses and deserves the Police State Dictatorship it's going to get."
Ian Williams Goddard.
beasty
Inverstigate the facts, but don't make them up. Prove as fact there's a military plane controlling passenger jets in midair FIRST.
inyerface

make it go away
Repub_Bub
QUOTE (inyerface @ Jan 16 2009, 03:03 PM) *
"A society whose citizens refuse to see and investigate the facts, who refuse to believe that their government and their media will routinely lie to them and fabricate a reality contrary to verifiable facts, is a society that chooses and deserves the Police State Dictatorship it's going to get."
Ian Williams Goddard.

Let's not forget another article by Ian the extraordinaire...
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Are Apollo Moon Photos Fake?

inyerface

really

you'd have to be a fool to ever question anything
beasty
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html

Fox TV and the Apollo Moon Hoax
(February 13, 2001)



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On Thursday, February 15th 2001 (and replayed on March 19), the Fox TV network aired a program called ``Conspiracy Theory: Did We Land on the Moon?'', hosted by X-Files actor Mitch Pileggi. The program was an hour long, and featured interviews with a series of people who believe that NASA faked the Apollo Moon landings in the 1960s and 1970s. The biggest voice in this is Bill Kaysing, who claims to have all sorts of hoax evidence, including pictures taken by the astronauts, engineering details, discussions of physics and even some testimony by astronauts themselves. The program's conclusion was that the whole thing was faked in the Nevada desert (in Area 51, of course!). According to them, NASA did not have the technical capability of going to the Moon, but pressure due to the Cold War with the Soviet Union forced them to fake it.

Sound ridiculous? Of course it does! It is. So let me get this straight right from the start: this program is an hour long piece of junk.

From the very first moment to the very last, the program is loaded with bad thinking, ridiculous suppositions and utterly wrong science. I was able to get a copy of the show in advance, and although I was expecting it to be bad, I was still surprised and how awful it was. I took four pages of notes. I won't subject you to all of that here; it would take hours to write. I'll only go over some of the major points of the show, and explain briefly why they are wrong. In the near future, hopefully by the end of the summer, I will have a much more detailed series of pages taking on each of the points made by the Hoax Believers (whom I will call HBs).
So let's take a look at the ``evidence'' brought out by the show. To make this easier, below is a table with links to the specific arguments.


Disclaimer 20% believe in the hoax? The Capricorn 1 tie-in
No stars in pictures No blast crater Dust around the lander
Deep, dark shadows Non-parallel shadows Identical backgrounds
More identical backgrounds Lander unable to balance itself No flames from lunar launch
Astronauts footage shot in slow-motion The waving flag Why was every picture perfect?
Missing crosshairs in photos The deadly radiation of space Did NASA murder its astronauts?
CONCLUSION LINKS FALLOUT



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Bad: Right at the beginning, they have a disclaimer:

The following program deals with a controversial subject. The theories expressed are not the only possible explanation. Viewers are invited to make a judgment based on all available information.
Good: The last thing the writers of this program want the viewers to do is make an informed decision. If they did, they would have given equal time to both sides of this controversy. Instead, the vast majority of the time is given to the HBs, with only scattered (and very vague) dismissive statements by skeptics. So the available information is really only what they tell you. Of course, there are a lot of websites talking about this. I have a list of them on my own site.



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Bad: The show claims that 20% of Americans have doubts that we went to the Moon.

Good: That number is a bit misleading. A 1999 Gallup poll showed it was more like 6%, a number which agrees with a poll taken in 1995 by Time/CNN. The Gallup website [note added Feb. 19, 2007: The Gallup site has been rearranged, and though I can no longer find this quotation, it still jibes with what is on the site now] also says:

Although, if taken literally, 6% translates into millions of individuals, it is not unusual to find about that many people in the typical poll agreeing with almost any question that is asked of them -- so the best interpretation is that this particular conspiracy theory is not widespread.
It also depends on what you mean by ``doubts''. Does that mean someone who truly doesn't believe man ever went to the Moon, or just that it's remotely possible that NASA faked it? Those are very different things. Not only does the program not say, but they don't say where they found the statistic they quote either.


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Bad: The program talks about the movie ``Capricorn 1'', an entertaining if ultimately silly movie about how NASA must fake a manned Mars expedition. The program says ``The Apollo footage [from the surface of the Moon] is strikingly similar to the scenes in ``Capricorn 1''.

Good: Is it just an amazing coincidence that the actual Moon images look like the movie, or is it evidence of conspiracy? Neither! The movie was filmed in 1978, many years after the last man walked on the Moon. The movie was made to look like the real thing! This statement by the program is particularly ludicrous, and indicates just how far the producers were willing to go to make a sensational program.



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Bad: The first bit of actual evidence brought up is the lack of stars in the pictures taken by the Apollo astronauts from the surface of the Moon. Without air, the sky is black, so where are the stars?

Good: The stars are there! They're just too faint to be seen.

This is usually the first thing HBs talk about when discussing the Hoax. That amazes me, as it's the silliest assertion they make. However, it appeals to our common sense: when the sky is black here on Earth, we see stars. Therefore we should see them from the Moon as well.

I'll say this here now, and return to it many times: the Moon is not the Earth. Conditions there are weird, and our common sense is likely to fail us.

The Moon's surface is airless. On Earth, our thick atmosphere scatters sunlight, spreading it out over the whole sky. That's why the sky is bright during the day. Without sunlight, the air is dark at night, allowing us to see stars.

On the Moon, the lack of air means that the sky is dark. Even when the Sun is high off the horizon during full day, the sky near it will be black. If you were standing on the Moon, you would indeed see stars, even during the day.

So why aren't they in the Apollo pictures? Pretend for a moment you are an astronaut on the surface of the Moon. You want to take a picture of your fellow space traveler. The Sun is low off the horizon, since all the lunar landings were done at local morning. How do you set your camera? The lunar landscape is brightly lit by the Sun, of course, and your friend is wearing a white spacesuit also brilliantly lit by the Sun. To take a picture of a bright object with a bright background, you need to set the exposure time to be fast, and close down the aperture setting too; that's like the pupil in your eye constricting to let less light in when you walk outside on a sunny day.

So the picture you take is set for bright objects. Stars are faint objects! In the fast exposure, they simply do not have time to register on the film. It has nothing to do with the sky being black or the lack of air, it's just a matter of exposure time. If you were to go outside here on Earth on the darkest night imaginable and take a picture with the exact same camera settings the astronauts used, you won't see any stars!

It's that simple. Remember, this the usually the first and strongest argument the HBs use, and it was that easy to show wrong. Their arguments get worse from here.



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Bad: In the pictures taken of the lunar lander by the astronauts, the TV show continues, there is no blast crater. A rocket capable of landing on the Moon should have burned out a huge crater on the surface, yet there is nothing there.

Good: When someone driving a car pulls into a parking spot, do they do it at 100 kilometers per hour? Of course not. They slow down first, easing off the accelerator. The astronauts did the same thing. Sure, the rocket on the lander was capable of 10,000 pounds of thrust, but they had a throttle. They fired the rocket hard to deorbit and slow enough to land on the Moon, but they didn't need to thrust that hard as they approached the lunar surface; they throttled down to about 3000 pounds of thrust.

Now here comes a little bit of math: the engine nozzle was about 54 inches across (from the Encyclopaedia Astronautica), which means it had an area of 2300 square inches. That in turn means that the thrust generated a pressure of only about 1.5 pounds per square inch! That's not a lot of pressure. Moreover, in a vacuum, the exhaust from a rocket spreads out very rapidly. On Earth, the air in our atmosphere constrains the thrust of a rocket into a narrow column, which is why you get long flames and columns of smoke from the back of a rocket. In a vacuum, no air means the exhaust spreads out even more, lowering the pressure. That's why there's no blast crater! Three thousand pounds of thrust sounds like a lot, but it was so spread out it was actually rather gentle.

[Note added December 6, 2001: Originally in this section I said that the engines also cut off early, before the moment of touchdown, to prevent dust from getting blown around and disturbing the astronauts' view of the surface. This was an incorrect assertion; it was known that dust would blow around before the missions were launched, and steps were taken to make sure the astronauts knew their height above the surface. Anyway, the incorrect section has been removed.]



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Bad: The next argument presented on the show deals with the lunar dust. As the lander descended, we clearly see dust getting blown away by the rocket. The exhaust should have blown all the dust away, yet we can clearly see the astronauts' footprints in the dust mere meters from the lander. Obviously, when NASA faked this they messed it up.

Good: Once again, the weird alien environment of the Moon comes to play. Imagine taking a bag of flour and dumping it onto your kitchen floor (kids: ask your folks first!). Now bend over the pile, take a deep breath, and blow into it as hard as you can. Poof! Flour goes everywhere. Why? Because the momentum of your breath goes into the flour, which makes it move. But note that the flour goes up, and sideways, and aloft into the air. If you blow hard enough, you might see little curlicues of air lifting the flour farther than your breath alone could have, and doing so to dust well outside of where your breath actually blew.

That's the heart of this problem. We are used to air helping us blow things around. The air itself is displaced by your breath, which pushed on more air, and so on. On the Earth, your breath might blow flour that was dozens of centimeters away, even though your actual breath didn't reach that far. On the Moon, there is no air. The only dust that gets blown around by the exhaust of the rocket (which, remember, isn't nearly as strong as the HBs claim) is the dust physically touched by the exhaust, or dust hit by other bits of flying dust. In the end, only the dust directly under or a bit around the rocket was blown out by the exhaust. The rest was left where it was. Ironically, the dust around the landing site was probably a bit thicker than before, since the dust blown out would have piled up there.

I can't resist: another Hoax Believer argument bites the dust.



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Bad: The next evidence also involves pictures. In all the pictures taken by the astronauts, the shadows are not black. Objects in shadow can be seen, sometimes fairly clearly, including a plaque on the side of the lander that can be read easily. If the Sun is the only source of light on the Moon, the HBs say, and there is no air to scatter that light, shadows should be utterly black.

Good: This is one of my favorite HB claims. They give you the answer in the claim itself: "...if the Sun is the only source of light..." It isn't. Initially, I thought the Earth was bright enough to fill in the shadows, but subsequently realized that cannot be the case. The Earth is a fraction of the brightness of the Sun, not nearly enough to fill in the shadows. So then what is that other light source?

The answer is: The Moon itself. Surprise! The lunar dust has a peculiar property: it tends to reflect light back in the direction from where it came. So if you were to stand on the Moon and shine a flashlight at the surface, you would see a very bright spot where the light hits the ground, but, oddly, someone standing a bit to the side would hardly see it at all. The light is preferentially reflected back toward the flashlight (and therefore you), and not the person on the side.

Now think about the sunlight. Let's say the sun is off to the right in a picture. It is illuminating the right side of the lander, and the left is in shadow. However, the sunlight falling beyond the lander on the left is being reflected back toward the Sun. That light hits the surface and reflects to the right and up, directly onto the shadowed part of the lander. In other words, the lunar surface is so bright that it easily lights up the shadows of vertical surfaces.

This effect is called heiligenschein (the German word for halo). You can find some neat images of it at here, for example. This also explains another HB claim, that many times the astronauts appear to be standing in a spotlight. This is a natural effect of heiligenschein. You can reproduce this effect yourself; wet grass on a cool morning will do it. Face away from the Sun and look at the shadow of your head. There will be a halo around it. The effect is also very strong in fine, disturbed dust like that in a baseball diamond infield. Or, of course, on the Moon.

[Note added June 29, 2001: A nifty demonstration of the shadow filling was done by Ian Goddard and can be found here. His demos are great, and really drive the point home.



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Bad: Another argument by the HBs deals with shadows. Several photos from the Moon are shown where objects on the lunar landscape have long shadows. If the Sun were the only light source, the program claims, the shadows should be parallel. The shadows are not parallel, and therefore the images are fake.

Good: This is an interesting claim on the part of the HBs, because on the surface (haha) it seems to make sense. However, let's assume the shadows are not parallel. One explanation is that there are (at least) two light sources, and that is certainly what many HBs are trying to imply. So if there are multiple light sources, where are the multiple shadows? Each object casts one shadow, so there can only be one light source.

Another explanation is that the light source is close to the objects; then it would also cast non-parallel shadows. However, a distant source can as well! In this case, the Sun really is the only source of light. The shadows are not parallel in the images because of perspective. Remember, you are looking at a three-dimensional scene, projected on a two-dimensional photograph. That causes distortions. When the Sun is low and shadows are long, objects at different distance do indeed appear to cast non-parallel shadows, even here on Earth. An example of that can be found at another debunking site. The scene (near the bottom of the above-linked page) shows objects with non-parallel shadows, distorted by perspective. If seen from above, all the shadows in the Apollo images would indeed look parallel. You can experience this for yourself; go outside on a clear day when the Sun is low in the sky and compare the direction of the shadows of near and far objects. You'll see that they appear to diverge. Here is a major claim of the HBs that you can disprove all by yourself! Don't take my word for it, go out and try!

Incidentally, the bright Earth in the sky will also cast shadows, but those would be very faint compared to the ones made by the Sun. So in a sense there are multiple shadows, but like not being able to see stars, the shadows are too faint to be seen against the very bright lunar surface. Again, you can test this yourself: go outside during full Moon and you'll see your shadow. Then walk over to a streetlamp. The light from the streetlamp will wash out the shadow cast by the Moon. You might still be able to see it faintly, but it would difficult against the much brighter landscape.

[Note added June 29, 2001: Again, check out Ian Goddard's work for more about this.



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Bad: The program has two segments dealing with what they call ``identical backgrounds''. In one, they show the lunar lander with a mountain in the background. They then show another picture of the same mountain, but no lander in the foreground at all. The astronauts could not have taken either picture before landing, of course, and after it lifts off the lander leaves the bottom section behind. Therefore, there would have been something in the second image no matter what, and the foreground could not be empty. Obviously, the mountain background is a fake set, and was reused by NASA for another shot.

Good: Actually, the pictures are real, of course. As always, repeat after me: the Moon is not the Earth. On the Earth, distant objects are obscured a bit by haze in the air, and we use that to mentally gauge distances. However, with no air, an object can be very far away on the Moon and still be crisp and sharp to the eye. You can't tell if a boulder is a meter across and 100 meters away, or 100 meters across and 10 kilometers away!

That's what's going on here. The lander is close to the astronaut in the first picture, perhaps a 20 or 30 meters away. The mountain is kilometers away. For the second picture, the astronaut merely moved a few hundred meters to the side. The lander was then out of the picture, but the mountain hardly moved at all! If you look at the scene carefully, you'll see that all the rocks and craters in the foreground changes between the two pictures, just as you'd expect if the astronaut had moved to the side a ways between the two shots. It's not fraud, it's parallax!

Another example of the difficulty in estimating distance is due to the shapes of the rocks on the Moon. A rock small enough to sit down on doesn't look fundamentally different from one bigger than your house. Humans also judge distance by using the relative sizes of objects. We know how big a person is, or a tree, so the apparent size of the object can be used to estimate the distance. If we don't know how big the object is, we can be fooled about its distance.

For an outstanding example of this, take a look at video taken during Apollo 16. There is a boulder in the background that looks to be about 3 or 4 meters (10-13 feet) high. About 3/4 of the way through the segment the astronauts walk over to it. Amazingly, that boulder is the size of a large house! Without knowing how big the rock was when we first see it, we have no way to judge distances. That huge rock looks like a medium sized one until we have some way to directly judge its size; in this case, by looking at the tiny astronauts next to it. [My thanks to Bad Reader Martin Michalak for bringing this video to my attention. My very special thanks goes to Charlie Duke (yes, the Charlie Duke, Apollo astronaut and lunar lander pilot) who emailed me (!) about the difficulty in judging distances due to not knowing the sizes of rocks.]

I will admit the Fox program had me for a while on this one; I couldn't figure it out. But then I got a note from Bad Reader David Bailey, who set me straight. However, the producers of the show should have talked to some real experts before saying such a silly thing as this. If they had checked with the folks who run the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal, for example, they would have been set straight too.

NEW! (February 19, 2001): I found a site that has an animation where the two images of the mountain are superimposed. You need Flash for it, but it's a great animation. The beauty of it is that you can see changes in the mountain range due to parallax!. In other words, this animation is support that the images are real and are not using a fake backdrop. The real beauty of this animation is that the person who put it together is an HB. I like the irony of linking to that animation and using it to show that it is indeed evidence that Apollo did go to the Moon. I love the web!



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Bad: The other ``identical background'' segment shows an astronaut on a hilltop. A second video shows two astronauts on the same hill (and this time it really is the same hill), and claims that NASA itself says these two videos were taken on two different hills separated by many kilometers. How can this be? They are obviously the same hill, so NASA must be lying!

Good: Never attribute to malice what you can attribute to a mistake. A videotape about Apollo 16 ironically titled ``Nothing So Hidden...'' released by NASA does indeed make that claim, but in this case it looks to me to be a simple error. I asked Eric Jones, who is the editor of the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal, and he told me those two clips were taken about three minutes apart. Eric's assistant, Ken Glover, uncovered this problem. He sent me this transcript (which I edited a bit to make links to the video clips) of the Fox show with his comments, which I will highlight in red:

inyerface
The time has come to stop using the flag as a blindfold, to stop waving our guns and our gods at each other, to take a close look at the facts which have emerged from the attacks on the World Trade Towers and to recognize the very real possibility, indeed probability, that We The People are the victims of a gigantic and deadly hoax.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/hoax.html
Repub_Bub
QUOTE (inyerface @ Jan 16 2009, 03:32 PM) *
The time has come to stop using the flag as a blindfold, to stop waving our guns and our gods at each other, to take a close look at the facts which have emerged from the attacks on the World Trade Towers and to recognize the very real possibility, indeed probability, that We The People are the victims of a gigantic and deadly hoax.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/hoax.html

You do nothing but make poop posts....day in and day out...poop posts...pure poop posts.
inyerface
you are the one who is fooled

prove me wrong or get off my leg
arebuntz
QUOTE (inyerface @ Jan 16 2009, 12:18 PM) *
CNN ID'd the plane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSe1OERJOyE

that's a no fly zone, genius

keep proving your ignorance... you got that nailed down.

or are you some kind of misinformation agent?

You do know that NY City and Washington DC are two different places right?
arebuntz
QUOTE (inyerface @ Jan 16 2009, 03:43 PM) *

You the smirkingchimp mascot?
CharlieRay
Talk about the drills and excercises guys.

Explain that away.
inyerface
yeppers

the plane was in DC after the towers fell, as CNN showed

Diane Sawyer has it with both towers still up
inyerface
QUOTE (arebuntz @ Jan 16 2009, 04:48 PM) *
You the smirkingchimp mascot?


you the dumbya understudy?
arebuntz
QUOTE (inyerface @ Jan 16 2009, 04:07 PM) *
its a military command plane watching everything

the jet hitting the tower "has no windows"

Was it watching you? No... then it wasn't watching everything was it?...

Both of the commercial airliners flown into the WTC Towers had windows... tough for the pilots to see out otherwise...
arebuntz
QUOTE (beasty @ Jan 16 2009, 04:25 PM) *
If it's on Youtube and Prison planet it has to be true.

Don't forget the smirkingchimp aka Inyerville
arebuntz
QUOTE (inyerface @ Jan 16 2009, 05:03 PM) *
"A society whose citizens refuse to see and investigate the facts, who refuse to believe that their government and their media will routinely lie to them and fabricate a reality contrary to verifiable facts, is a society that chooses and deserves the Police State Dictatorship it's going to get."
Ian Williams Goddard.

Well you only believe a few of the highest ranking gubment officials of a particular political persuasion would lie to you... you embrace the other 99%...
arebuntz
QUOTE (inyerface @ Jan 16 2009, 05:32 PM) *
The time has come to stop using the flag as a blindfold, to stop waving our guns and our gods at each other, to take a close look at the facts which have emerged from the attacks on the World Trade Towers and to recognize the very real possibility, indeed probability, that We The People are the victims of a gigantic and deadly hoax.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/hoax.html

You the person are... these folks got you hooked like one of Davis's largemouth bass... you send them money don't you?
arebuntz
QUOTE (CharlieRay @ Jan 16 2009, 07:48 PM) *
Talk about the drills and excercises guys.

Explain that away.

Always a drill or exercise going on somewhere... you get to explain what happened to the folks on the commercial jets that you say did not crash on 9/11
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (arebuntz @ Jan 16 2009, 06:06 PM) *
Don't forget the smirkingchimp aka Inyerville



Why are we supposed to give Obama a chance and be respectful again?
inyerface

safely hidden with the WMD
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (arebuntz @ Jan 16 2009, 06:13 PM) *
Always a drill or exercise going on somewhere... you get to explain what happened to the folks on the commercial jets that you say did not crash on 9/11



The military is working 24/7. Same with the CIA and FBI. Some with nothing to do but drill.
inyerface
QUOTE (arebuntz @ Jan 16 2009, 05:05 PM) *
Was it watching you? No... then it wasn't watching everything was it?...

Both of the commercial airliners flown into the WTC Towers had windows... tough for the pilots to see out otherwise...


show us all a pic from 911 with PASSENGER windows on the plane
inyerface
QUOTE (Arturo_Vandelay @ Jan 16 2009, 05:18 PM) *
The military is working 24/7. Same with the CIA and FBI. Some with nothing to do but drill.


they were far too busy on 911 to defend America

Alex Jones told us to watch out for it

I guess the military knows better

you want to be fooled
Repub_Bub
QUOTE (inyerface @ Jan 16 2009, 06:20 PM) *
they were far too busy on 911 to defend America

Alex Jones told us to watch out for it

I guess the military knows better

you want to be fooled

Just saw the news which had a good explanation for the lefty demand for universal health care... the Bush derangement syndrome is a valid form of insanity. Free health care for the new trough people.
Bob_K
QUOTE (Repub_Bub @ Jan 16 2009, 06:48 PM) *
Just saw the news which had a good explanation for the lefty demand for universal health care... the Bush derangement syndrome is a valid form of insanity. Free health care for the new trough people.

After reading 35-40 posts I'm starting to worry about the sanity of a couple people.
Repub_Bub
QUOTE (Bob_K @ Jan 16 2009, 06:52 PM) *
After reading 35-40 posts I'm starting to worry about the sanity of a couple people.

Worry implies that some positive action may lurk in the wings....forget about it.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (Bob_K @ Jan 16 2009, 06:52 PM) *
After reading 35-40 posts I'm starting to worry about the sanity of a couple people.


They blame their political enemies for everything, including their own problems and failures.
inyerface
... and then invade rich countries and cash in
CharlieRay
QUOTE (arebuntz @ Jan 16 2009, 06:13 PM) *
Always a drill or exercise going on somewhere... you get to explain what happened to the folks on the commercial jets that you say did not crash on 9/11


There were over a half dozen drills and excercises going on at the national level at the same time. Drills and excercises dealing with the same thing that was going on at the same time in the same place.

Come on... what are the odds.

Be honest.

On your question, I don't even know for sure that any of those folks ever existed, I didn't know any of them personally. Did you?
CharlieRay
QUOTE (Arturo_Vandelay @ Jan 16 2009, 06:18 PM) *
The military is working 24/7. Same with the CIA and FBI. Some with nothing to do but drill.


You're not being honest with yourself.

It's at the least bizarre that these drills happened to be going on at the same time and the same place as the real world event. To say otherwise is idiotic.

Come on... be honest.
CharlieRay
QUOTE (Bob_K @ Jan 16 2009, 06:52 PM) *
After reading 35-40 posts I'm starting to worry about the sanity of a couple people.


Bob, have you actually looked? If not, then take a look... an honest look.

http://www.ae911truth.org/

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/

http://911scholars.org/

http://www.v911t.org/

http://www.911truth.org/

http://911research.wtc7.net/

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timelin...mp;startpos=900


http://www.911timeline.net/

inyerface
QUOTE
starting to worry about the sanity of a couple people


didn't say who

I volunteer

seeing the right's intentional blindness and obvious digging for excuses makes me crazy
arebuntz
QUOTE (CharlieRay @ Jan 17 2009, 08:13 AM) *
There were over a half dozen drills and excercises going on at the national level at the same time. Drills and excercises dealing with the same thing that was going on at the same time in the same place.

Come on... what are the odds.

Be honest.

On your question, I don't even know for sure that any of those folks ever existed, I didn't know any of them personally. Did you?

So now we can only rely on personal direct contact for our views? So on UA 175, 60 plus names were just made up and nobody in the press thought to check with relatives, cover the funerals, etc...

Do you know how many other days they held similar drills when there were no attacks?
arebuntz
SO I ask again.. what DID happen if the Al Queda hijacker story is not true... Names please... Not endless links but a summary paragraph... You know like in the official story...
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