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Russ Logan
This letter was in the paper this AM:

"Use Congress as guinea pigs

In light of this new health care plan by the government, I have spoken to many people in Colorado and we all agree to the following:

• Any heath care plan decided upon must be implemented and utilized by every member of Congress, without exception.

• The government plan should be a pilot program for our elected officials and be offered to the public only after the sample population (the elected officials) have worked out the bugs in the system.

This is the process to all fortune 500 company process change/implementations and should not be detoured simply because it's a government program. We are eager to have a plan that works, but not at the cost to the people unless the creators of such a program are mandated to use the same heath care program they have created.

We should be serious in serious times, and should the government force the people to use a program that is not mandated for use by the elected officials, the president and the congressional effort will not be taken seriously and the program will be a farce.

The DMAIC method is a Six Sigma methodology that if followed is proven to work.
Define the program, Measure the program, Analyze the program, Implement the program, and Change the program to be the best world-class program developed.

Anything less will be just another failed program run by the government and President Barack Obama will be responsible for its failure."

Think I'll send this (with little hope it will influence my Senators - they ain't listened any other time I've contacted them - and my Congressman (he does listen)). But it probably makes too much sense for them (the Senators) to even consider it.
SpaceCowboy
I'm all for it.

At a minimum, all congressional employees should be forced out of the program for federal employees and be given an allowance to purchase individual policies.


Gee, I sure hope they have no pre-existing conditions.
arebuntz
Seems to be something of a pivot going on in the last 24 hours. Rhetoric is changing from if you like your health care insurance you can keep it to if your like your doctor and hospital you can keep it. Of course the gubment cannot guarantee either whether they do major reform or not but always interesting when the talking points change. I heard in a subcommittee meeting from yesterday some panelist actually say that the gubment plan provider (the gubment) would pay all the same local taxes as a private plan (not the gubment). I couldn't swear it's the same everywhere but gubments do not pay property taxes on their properties here. Of course this dude also said the gubment plan would also be subject to the same State insurance regulations as the private plans...
Repub_Bub
Obama's ABC infomercial was huge waste of time ... an extension of his campaign where reasonably decent questions never received realistic answers.
gtessex
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Jun 23 2009, 11:52 AM) *
I'm just hoping they'll still be giving away those free scooters when I turn 65.


Do you know if there is an attachment available on golf carts to store the scooters? laugh.gif
arebuntz
QUOTE
Spending a trillion dollars as a down payment for a government takeover of health care is a dream of many Democrats. The current plan in Congress would create a government insurance plan that would drive out the private ones.

The problem, though, is the cost. Even moderate Democrats are having second thoughts about that, as well as all the quality problems associated with socialized medicine. Even so, health care nationalization's biggest boosters are cooking up bad new plans.

Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., and Sen. Ted Kennedy, D-Mass., both would like to slap a tax on private health plans to pay for a new government one.

But they've carved out one very big exception: unions and their gold-plated benefit packages. This effectively gives Big Labor an advantage in the market and forces nonunion workers to subsidize unions for their share of this bad idea.

The logic behind this tax giveaway is that union health plans, which are lavish, would be subject to higher taxes than those of workers with regular private sector health care plans.

According to news reports, if unions get a special tax break for themselves on health care taxes, they'll gladly muscle "their" Congress members into supporting a "public option" health care bill.

In short, it's little more than a political payoff to unions for spending $400 million in campaign cash to elect Democrats to Congress and the White House last year. As if the outrageous favors they've received from the auto bailouts aren't enough.

But unions don't just get a tax break. They also get a great recruiting tool. After all, nationalizing health care in itself undermines any reason to belong to a union, since unions exist to squeeze more out of companies. If a company is no longer involved in health care and thus can no longer be squeezed, why belong to a union? The answer: special tax privileges.

This will artificially beef up union membership. Who wouldn't want tax-free health care over subsidizing someone else's as the current congressional bills dictate?

With the Employee Free Choice Act to coerce workers into unions now dead in the water, this could be a backdoor means of doing the same thing — while bringing in more campaign cash to Democrats.

This may be great for the Democrats and their union backers, but it's bad for the rest of us. By creating a two-tier system of pricing for health care, and with it privileges for party elites, it's fundamentally unfair to the public as a whole. The people who will get the short end of the stick on this — the rationing, the shortages, the wait lists — will be the very ones forced into paying for other people's health care. Unions will get a free ride.

Remember that whenever health care is "free" or subsidized to consumers, it distorts the market and creates disincentives to cut costs. So under the Kennedy-Baucus plan, union health care costs will soar without restraint. And ordinary Americans will pay.

This will turn unions, whose members comprise only 6% of U.S. workers, into a privileged caste, for no other reason than their political muscle with Democrats.

There's a word for this: Peronism. That was the populist political patronage system that took Argentina from one of the richest countries in the world in the early 20th century to the economically troubled nation it is today. It's a bad model for the U.S. to follow.

Spending big, carving out tax niches for no other reason than campaign contributions, and creating two-tiered pricing systems, is little more than a kind of corruption. It will lay us low, too.


The Level Playing Field Defined
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (Repub_Bub @ Jun 25 2009, 04:58 AM) *
Obama's ABC infomercial was huge waste of time ...



Not for me, I skipped in completely. Watching Dr Granny work her magic on the Beverly Hillbillies was much more "fact based".
Repub_Bub
QUOTE (Arturo_Vandelay @ Jun 25 2009, 02:02 PM) *
Not for me, I skipped in completely. Watching Dr Granny work her magic on the Beverly Hillbillies was much more "fact based".

She's also a doctor as I remember...
hunin
QUOTE (Hondo @ Jun 23 2009, 10:06 AM) *
The government can just make you. Overweight 15%, no healthcare. Smoke, no cancer treatment. Drink, no liver transplant.


No, you are confusing it with the private HC insurance we have now.

Only they call it prior condition.

Including diabetes and heart disease even if you never smoked.

hunin
QUOTE (arebuntz @ Jun 24 2009, 02:54 PM) *
Seems to be something of a pivot going on in the last 24 hours. Rhetoric is changing from if you like your health care insurance you can keep it to if your like your doctor and hospital you can keep it. Of course the gubment cannot guarantee either whether they do major reform or not but always interesting when the talking points change. I heard in a subcommittee meeting from yesterday some panelist actually say that the gubment plan provider (the gubment) would pay all the same local taxes as a private plan (not the gubment). I couldn't swear it's the same everywhere but gubments do not pay property taxes on their properties here. Of course this dude also said the gubment plan would also be subject to the same State insurance regulations as the private plans...



So that's the major diff you can find? Property taxes?

laugh.gif Least of the costs of officing.
arebuntz
QUOTE (hunin @ Jun 25 2009, 10:22 PM) *
So that's the major diff you can find? Property taxes?

laugh.gif Least of the costs of officing.

You of course have no idea of the property value of all private health insurer properties and the resulting revenue as well as the local revenue lost due to gubment ownership of property. Since it's no big deal you wouldn't have a problem with a Federal Law that would exempt all private health insurance property from local property taxes to you know level the playing field...
arebuntz
From article on Union Health Care exempted from proposed gold plated benefit tax...

QUOTE
Sandra Carter, a retired Pacific Bell Telephone Co. technician from Stockton, California, said her health benefits, worth about $12,000 per year, were negotiated by the Communications Workers of America. She is unmarried with no children, meaning her individual coverage exceeds benefits paid to federal workers by about $7,800. If that amount were taxed at the 15 percent marginal rate, she would owe $1,170.

“I can’t afford the taxes I pay now,” said Carter, who said she suffers from diabetes. “Why should I get taxed on a benefit that keeps me a functioning person?”


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=aDvu77pZr7k4

I suppose the next thing will be to exempt Union workers from all future income and payroll tax increases...
gtessex
QUOTE (arebuntz @ Jun 26 2009, 07:11 AM) *
From article on Union Health Care exempted from proposed gold plated benefit tax...



http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=aDvu77pZr7k4

I suppose the next thing will be to exempt Union workers from all future income and payroll tax increases...



Wouldn't surprise me at all.
Davis 2.0
There will never be a total exemption on income or payroll taxes.

Unless Republicans get in office then they will do everything they possibly can to funnel money/cut taxes to the richest in the country. Everyone else can go eff themselves.
underhi2p
QUOTE (arebuntz @ Jun 26 2009, 07:11 AM) *
From article on Union Health Care exempted from proposed gold plated benefit tax...



http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=aDvu77pZr7k4

I suppose the next thing will be to exempt Union workers from all future income and payroll tax increases...



This will happen.

Working families, their heirs and dependents, are a protected class.

gtessex
If anyone ever wants to know how great the Canadian Health Care System is.....Just ask an American who now lives in Canada? (Toronto)

I asked the question (to a friend)...and just got this response back!

Direct quote!

QUOTE
All I can say is that we are being told that if you have the SWINE FLU to ‘NOT” go to the hospital but to stay at home UNLESS you are REALLY SICK ?*!?*!! And that my friend is called gubmint health care! So basically we’re being advised to share the disease and not to worry about it!!! Let’s NOT discuss the LONG lines where you wait YEARS to even see a specialist. Or how about Howard’s Mom LIVING in the emergency room on a gurney for FOUR days because there was no bed available!! Then they shove her in a shared room with a MAN at EIGHTY SIX!!! Oh and here we have the ‘bring your own’ policy that includes TOWELS, WASHCLOTHES, and it appears blankets because when she was in the hospital they TOOK hers away to WASH and NEVER brought another one back even though she was suffering from ACUTE PNEUMONIA w/ a permanent TRACH, a pace maker, diabetes, etc!!! How could I forget this one… they left SPILLED URINE all over her floor for HOURS!!!!! Welcome to Canada where the healthcare rates the worst of the civilized nations!!! Most of the Docs SUCK too because the good ones all left this bloody country. Millions of people have NO family doc because there are NONE so they get to wait at clinics for up to EIGHT hours at a whack. Oh and I forgot about the fellow that DELIVERED his wife’s baby in the hospital because the NURSES apparently were too busy to attend to them after they screamed several times that she was delivering!!! So my friend, you can tell your gov that if they initiate this type of system you will end up one of the poorest and HIGHEST taxed country in the whole world. Here, ALL our pay up to JULY goes to the gubmint for taxes!!! You have to earn a bloody fortune just to maintain a roof over your head!!!! I was NOT an Obama fan when the jerk ran and I sure am NOT now!!! He’s more interested in the camera than he is in running a country!!! And this is the medical system that my husband has to work his way through!! He is hanging in by a thread and the ONLY reason he is doing as well as he is because he IS a Doc and knows how to play the system!!! I feel horrible for all the other people who don’t have someone on the inside to turn to!


Folks....you can interpet this note any way you like. If I had one wish right now, I'd impeach Obama, put Biden in the loony house where he belongs, and get rid of most of the members of Congress. There is little doubt, we are heading down a different path. At least, the previous path had a bumpy road, this one takes us all off a cliff! mad.gif mad.gif

Oh....don't forget to note, this women's husband is a Canadian doctor. She is no dummy. Trust me!

SpaceCowboy
QUOTE (gtessex @ Jun 26 2009, 09:21 AM) *
If anyone ever wants to know how great the Canadian Health Care System is.....Just ask an American who now lives in Canada? (Toronto)

I asked the question (to a friend)...and just got this response back!

Direct quote!

[size=2][/size]

Folks....you can interpet this note any way you like. If I had one wish right now, I'd impeach Obama, put Biden in the loony house where he belongs, and get rid of most of the members of Congress. There is little doubt, we are heading down a different path. At least, the previous path had a bumpy road, this one takes us all off a cliff! mad.gif mad.gif

Oh....don't forget to note, this women's husband is a Canadian doctor. She is no dummy. Trust me!

For a doctor's wife, she's not too smart.-

QUOTE
All I can say is that we are being told that if you have the SWINE FLU to ‘NOT” go to the hospital but to stay at home UNLESS you are REALLY SICK ?*!?*!!


Yes lady, that's the same advice you would get here. Swine flu is most dangerous to people who already have a major illness. That's why if you only have the flu you are being told not to go to the hosptital - that's where the most vunerable people are.
Lord_Proprietor
QUOTE (gtessex @ Jun 26 2009, 10:21 AM) *
If anyone ever wants to know how great the Canadian Health Care System is.....Just ask an American who now lives in Canada? (Toronto)

I asked the question (to a friend)...and just got this response back!

Direct quote!



Folks....you can interpet this note any way you like. If I had one wish right now, I'd impeach Obama, put Biden in the loony house where he belongs, and get rid of most of the members of Congress. There is little doubt, we are heading down a different path. At least, the previous path had a bumpy road, this one takes us all off a cliff! mad.gif mad.gif

Oh....don't forget to note, this women's husband is a Canadian doctor. She is no dummy. Trust me!



Hunin would be elated - and it looks like we're on our way with BHOCare.



Moved from other health spot and reposted.

QUOTE (hunin @ Jun 25 2009, 11:17 AM) *
Good to hear from you, sir. Been worried.

I don't think it's quite as simply reduced to "If someone spends their life eating bacon and cheese and washing it down with buttermilk, should your child's college fund by diverted to buy them cholesterol lowering pharmaceuticals."

So far medical care is not given based on the wisdom - or lack of it - of the patient. Access is not denied by way of such judgment calls.

Should birthing care be denied to those who carelessly became pregnant and can't afford birthing care?

Need stands apart from causality really.



Speaking of Medical Care --- you do realize in the new BHOCare - the Congress - Executive and Judicial branches as well as Unions, are exempt and they will not have to give up what they have and join the rest of the peons in the system they have designed for us. Wonder Why?


http://www.obamacaretruth.org/
Have you thought about how BHOCare is going to add 40,000,000 to the rolls and yet cut cost? How will that be done? Why of course, cutting services and procedures and as BHO said last night - don't have surgery, just take more pain pills and when one person ask him about her 100 Y/O mom "still with a good spirit and needed a pace maker" he skirted the direct answer and said we can't get "hung up in spirit" - ohmy.gif too old to spend gubmit $$ on?
Davis 2.0
QUOTE
Oh and I forgot about the fellow that DELIVERED his wife’s baby in the hospital because the NURSES apparently were too busy to attend to them after they screamed several times that she was delivering!!!


Sure. That's the norm in socialist hospitals.
gtessex
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Jun 26 2009, 10:32 AM) *
For a doctor's wife, she's not too smart.-


How's that?
gtessex
QUOTE (Lord_Proprietor)
Speaking of Medical Care --- you do realize in the new BHOCare - the Congress - Executive and Judicial branches as well as Unions, are exempt and they will not have to give up what they have and join the rest of the peons in the system they have designed for us. Wonder Why?


Yupper. Welcome to the (new) 'us & them' society. Guess which 'bunch' gets the shaft?
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE (gtessex @ Jun 26 2009, 10:04 AM) *
How's that?

She's complaining about being told not to go to the hospital with swine flu. See my comments above.
gtessex
QUOTE (Davis 2.0 @ Jun 26 2009, 10:56 AM) *
Sure. That's the norm in socialist hospitals.


Living in 'denial' again there Davis?

QUOTE
The original, groundbreaking study, funded by the Public Health Agency of Canada, showed that most Canadian hospitals fell seriously short in preventing patients from getting hospital infections. The researchers estimated then that about 250,000 patients a year experience infected surgical wounds, blood infections, and antibiotic-resistant organisms while in hospital - and that 8,000 of these patients will die.

Findings from the new Queen's study - which draws on data from 2005 - will be published in the December issue of the American Journal of Infection Control.

While human resources to combat the problem have increased significantly - particularly in Ontario and Quebec - the number of hospital-acquired infections has risen even faster. "The combination of more infection control practitioners and activity, but also more bugs, hasn't taken us where we want to be," says Dr. Zoutman, who is director of Infection Prevention and Control at Kingston General Hospital. "We've made some strides, but there is still a lot to do. We'd like to see increased surveillance and control activities, which our study indicates haven't been achieved yet."

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/128688.php

You gotta love are new future health care system run by the U.S. Gubmint. My clueless douchebag senator Bernie Sanders thinks the Canadian health care system is the best in the world and we should adopt it! BS mad.gif
gtessex
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Jun 26 2009, 11:07 AM) *
She's complaining about being told not to go to the hospital with swine flu. See my comments above.


Why pick out that one sentence and ignore the rest of her comments?

IMHO, this Swine Flu 'epidemic' has been blown way out of context. I have seen far worst cases of flu
over my lifetime.

I guess there are two ways of looking at this issue from the perspective of someone who is ill.

Stay home and hope it gets better or....DIE.

I know 5 years ago when I came down with my DVT blood clot, I was in the emergency room within 3 hours and that
was after seeing my physician, sent to have an ultrasound done and then sent directly to ER. I get the impression,
things wouldn't happen that quickly under the Canadian health system. She has done nothing more than verify my
impressions of the Canadian Health care system.

So why are there those who favor a system similiar or the Canadian Health system...is it because it is better or is it because
it is run by the gubmint? I have no doubt their system is worst than ours, so much be, those who favor it, like it because the
gubmint runs it?
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE (gtessex @ Jun 26 2009, 10:27 AM) *
Why pick out that one sentence and ignore the rest of her comments?


Because her comment didn't make sense, based on what I have learned of the swine flu.

QUOTE
IMHO, this Swine Flu 'epidemic' has been blown way out of context. I have seen far worst cases of flu
over my lifetime.


Agreed.
QUOTE
I guess there are two ways of looking at this issue from the perspective of someone who is ill.

Stay home and hope it gets better or....DIE.


It depends on how sick the person is.

Hondo
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Jun 24 2009, 01:21 PM) *
I'm all for it.

At a minimum, all congressional employees should be forced out of the program for federal employees and be given an allowance to purchase individual policies.


Gee, I sure hope they have no pre-existing conditions.


Force the employees into a system and let the elected officials out? The elected blowhards ought to get the least of the government programs and not be allowed to purchase anything on their own. Let the Democrats wait the same amount of time Canadians do for routine procedures.
Hondo
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Jun 26 2009, 08:32 AM) *
For a doctor's wife, she's not too smart.-



Yes lady, that's the same advice you would get here. Swine flu is most dangerous to people who already have a major illness. That's why if you only have the flu you are being told not to go to the hosptital - that's where the most vunerable people are.


That's always true. The last place you want to be sick is in a hospital. It will finish you off.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE (Hondo @ Jun 26 2009, 11:20 AM) *
Force the employees into a system and let the elected officials out? The elected blowhards ought to get the least of the government programs and not be allowed to purchase anything on their own. Let the Democrats wait the same amount of time Canadians do for routine procedures.

I mis-spoke. I meant congresscritters and their employees.

Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Jun 26 2009, 09:29 AM) *
I mis-spoke. I meant congresscritters and their employees.



Make the employees miserable and they will screw the boss. A good plan I guess.
Hondo
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Jun 26 2009, 10:29 AM) *
I mis-spoke. I meant congresscritters and their employees.


Maybe both sides need to see how their own plans work. The problem with making them live up to their own standards is they can afford to cheat, where most of us can't.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE (Hondo @ Jun 26 2009, 11:22 AM) *
That's always true. The last place you want to be sick is in a hospital. It will finish you off.

They are very dangerous places . Never leave a loved one alone there, if you can avoid it.

Arturo_Vandelay
Luckily congresscritters aren't loved ones.

Damn, tennis and work today.... Oh well, I can use the extra time....
Hondo
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Jun 26 2009, 10:34 AM) *
They are very dangerous places . Never leave a loved one alone there, if you can avoid it.



Go in sick, come out dead. I think at least with then advent of hand sanitizers some infections might be going down.
Hondo
QUOTE (Arturo_Vandelay @ Jun 26 2009, 10:37 AM) *
Luckily congresscritters aren't loved ones.



laugh.gif Not even close.
underhi2p
Unions’ Health Benefits May Avoid Tax Under Proposal (Update1)
Share | Email | Print | A A A

By Ryan J. Donmoyer and Holly Rosenkrantz

June 26 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. Senate proposal to impose taxes for the first time on “gold-plated” health plans may bypass generous employee benefits negotiated by unions.

Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, the chief congressional advocate of taxing some employer-provided benefits to help pay for an overhaul of the U.S. health system, says any change should exempt perks secured in existing collective- bargaining agreements, which can be in place for as long as five years.

The exception, which could make the proposal more politically palatable to Democrats from heavily unionized states such as Michigan, is adding controversy to an already contentious debate. It would shield the 12.4 percent of American workers who belong to unions from being taxed while exposing some other middle-income workers to the levy.

“I can’t think of any other aspect of the individual income tax that treats benefits of different people differently because of who they work for,” said Chris Edwards, director of tax policy studies at the Cato Institute, a Washington research group that often criticizes Democrats’ economic proposals. Edwards said the carve-out “smacks of political favoritism.”

Baucus, a Montana Democrat, is proposing to tax Americans whose health insurance is valued at a higher rate than what is offered to federal employees. About 40 percent of insured Americans have costlier benefits, and Baucus has said he is trying to set the level at which taxes would be imposed high enough so fewer people are affected.

‘Gold-Plated’ Plans

The policy is aimed at so-called “gold-plated” plans such as the $40,543 in health benefits paid to Lloyd Blankfein, chief executive of New York-based Goldman Sachs Group Inc., the fifth largest U.S. bank by assets.

It can also affect companies such as Henderson, Nevada- based Zappos.com, where workers’ $11 per hour pay is supplemented by employer-paid health insurance plans worth about $7,500. Federal workers’ health benefits are worth about $4,200 for individuals and $13,000 for families.

Lawmakers are crafting legislation aimed at meeting Obama’s goal of bringing down the cost of health care and expanding coverage to the 46 million Americans who lack insurance. Obama wants Democratic congressional leaders to seek Republican support, and to send him legislation by mid-October.

Baucus said yesterday the cost of health-care options his panel is considering can be cut to $1 trillion over 10 years and won’t add to the deficit, citing the Congressional Budget Office.

Cost Estimates

The non-partisan budget office last week delivered an informal cost estimate of $1.6 trillion for the legislation to overhaul the health-care system, sparking protests from both Republicans and Democrats and prompting Baucus to say his panel may delay consideration of a bill until next month.

“CBO now tells us we have options that would enable us to write a $1 trillion bill, fully paid for,” Baucus, who set that amount as his goal, told reporters at the Capitol.

The panel’s legislation must be joined with competing proposals from other Senate and House committees and forged into a single bill subject to negotiation and approval by both chambers before it can be sent to Obama.

Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad, a North Dakota Democrat, said earlier this week that senators are coalescing around the idea of taxing some employer-provided benefits. Baucus said the details are still being negotiated, including how high to set the tax-free exclusion and when any changes would take effect, and whether to exempt union employees until their current contracts expire.

Cutting ‘Subsidy’

“It is hard for me to see how you can have a package that is paid for that does not reduce the subsidy” on employer-paid benefits, Conrad said.

Kentucky Senator Mitch McConnell, the top-ranking Republican in the chamber, said today he has “serious reservations about capping the exclusion, particularly if they have a carve-out for union members,” according to his communications director, Don Stewart. Stewart taped McConnell’s comments and provided excerpts to a reporter.

Stewart said McConnell, discussing the prospect of a tax on some employer-provided benefits, said “table-pounding opposition” would result “if it were to exclude union members.”

Gerald Shea, an AFL-CIO official lobbying for health-care reform, said grandfathering benefits negotiated in a collective bargaining agreement is a “common thing when there is a big change in federal law.”

‘Expectations Are Set’

“Once a collective bargaining agreement is set, employer’s budgets are set, workers expectations are set. It doesn’t make sense to go back in the middle of the contract and change it,” he said.

Union groups and workers said Congress shouldn’t target contractually negotiated benefits.

Anna Burger, secretary-treasurer of the Service Employees International Union, said in an interview that workers have often traded salary increases for better benefits in agreements.

Taxes “shouldn’t be taken from the backs of workers who have bargained away wages and other things for their benefits over the years,” Burger said.

Sandra Carter, a retired Pacific Bell Telephone Co. technician from Stockton, California, said her health benefits, worth about $12,000 per year, were negotiated by the Communications Workers of America. She is unmarried with no children, meaning her individual coverage exceeds benefits paid to federal workers by about $7,800. If that amount were taxed at the 15 percent marginal rate, she would owe $1,170.

“I can’t afford the taxes I pay now,” said Carter, who said she suffers from diabetes. “Why should I get taxed on a benefit that keeps me a functioning person?”

Union Opposition

Other unions say they’re opposed to a tax on some employer- provided benefits, regardless of whether collective bargaining agreements are exempt.

“Either way, we are against a tax on health-care benefits in whatever form it takes,” said Jacob Hay, spokesman for the Laborers’ International Union of North America. The union represents 500,000 workers, largely in the construction industry.

To contact the reporters on this story: Ryan J. Donmoyer in Washington at rdonmoyer@bloomberg.netHolly Rosenkrantz in Washington at hrosenkrantz@bloomberg.net

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=aDvu77pZr7k4


Big surprise here.

Big government sucking Big Labor dick and pussy.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE (underhi2p @ Jun 26 2009, 03:14 PM) *
Unions’ Health Benefits May Avoid Tax Under Proposal (Update1)

‘Expectations Are Set’

“Once a collective bargaining agreement is set, employer’s budgets are set, workers expectations are set. It doesn’t make sense to go back in the middle of the contract and change it,” he said.



What a load. The issues faced by union members are no different that non-union workers.
Davis 2.0
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So, what happened — what went wrong?

And . . .
Are You Slowly but Surely Laying Your Own Deadly Foundation for Sudden Cardiac Death?

Dr. Russell Blaylock
Dr. Russell Blaylock
Newsmax Medical Editor
Here's why I ask.

Dr. Blaylock, our Newsmax health expert and editor of The Blaylock Wellness Report, tells us most people with Sudden Cardiac Death have been unknowingly laying the foundation for a fatal heart attack years before it ever happened.

Nearly 90% of people with SCD have more than one coronary artery that is severely constricted due to atherosclerotic plaque.

And they more than likely have already experienced at least one undiagnosed heart attack, leaving dangerous scar tissue in their heart muscle.

And that's not all . . .

Throw in a history of stress, diabetes, or obesity, and you've got the perfect concoction for a walking time bomb.

In Tim Russert's case, the warning signs were there.

* He was borderline diabetic
* He had an extremely stressful job
* He had a history of heart problems
* He was overweight
* He apparently had an enlarged heart

Yet, here's the clincher . . .
The Real Tragedy — SCD is Preventable!

You'll see in this revealing issue of The Blaylock Wellness Report, "Can Sudden Cardiac Death Be Prevented?" that Tim Russert didn't have to die so young.

<snip>

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Finding a true bargain these days is next to impossible. But I think you'll agree that you definitely get far more than you pay for with Dr. Blaylock's monthly newsletter.

For only 13 cents a day — $4 a month — you'll have instant, 24-hour-a-day access to our popular Blaylock Wellness Report.

Tell me, where else can you invest a mere 13 cents a day to save thousands of dollars on worthless (and potentially dangerous) drugs, useless supplements, or unnecessary treatments?
Hondo
http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/health_pr.../24/228903.html

Health Prevention Often Costs More Than It Saves

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 3:55 PM

Article Font Size


CHICAGO -- When it comes to health care spending, an ounce of prevention is seldom worth a pound of cure.

Take Mrs. Jones, a hypothetical 55-year-old obese woman at risk for diabetes. It costs $900 a year to hire a personal lifestyle coach to help her lose weight and prevent diabetes. Suppose that the coaching works for Mrs. Jones, and she is spared diabetes and all the resulting health bills.

But research shows that for every person like Mrs. Jones, six other people just like her get nothing out of such a program. They either don't lose weight or get diabetes anyway or wouldn't have developed it in the first place. The yearly cost of the prevention program for those six people: $5,400.

That's probably more than Mrs. Jones' health bills from diabetes would have amounted to.

There goes your pound of cure.

The truth is, shockingly few prevention efforts actually save the health care system money overall, despite claims by the president and some in Congress.


Discussing daily aspirin use with people at risk of heart disease does save money. So do vaccinations for children. When doctors talk to smokers and offer medication to help them quit, that, too, saves money.

But those are the exceptions.

Prevention is a good deal, some experts say, if you can buy one year of perfect health for less than $50,000. The most-recommended prevention efforts - like flu shots for adults, Pap smears for women and colon cancer screening for people over 50 - meet that cutoff. But they certainly don't save money.


Some say cost is beside the point, since those things save lives at what's deemed a reasonable expense.

Back to Mrs. Jones. Helping 100 people like her would cost $270,000 over three years, but also would prevent 15 new cases of diabetes, avoid the need for blood pressure or cholesterol-lowering pills in 11 people, avoid $65,500 in medical spending for all 100 people and prevent 162 missed days of work due to sickness.

Dr. Ronald Ackermann at Indiana University School of Medicine in Indianapolis said recent studies suggest that offering the diabetes prevention program to groups of 10 people - instead of one-on-one coaching - can lead to similar benefits and cost as little as $15 per month.

The YMCA is offering just such a group program. Retired accountant Paul Mullen, 66, of Indianapolis, has lost 18 pounds since May and brought his blood sugar down because of lifestyle changes he learned. He pays $115 for the yearlong program, on top of his Y membership fee.

He feels better, his knees don't hurt as much and he can't wait to see his doctor's reaction when he gets his next checkup.

"I should have done it years ago," he said. "My daughter-in-law got after me. The wife did, too. So far, it's worked."

Michael Maciosek of HealthPartners Research Foundation in Minneapolis found that of 25 highly recommended prevention strategies, 15 cost less than $35,000 for every year of perfect health gained.

Those are definitely bargains if you're using the arbitrary cutoff of $50,000 per healthy year to decide what's a good investment in health spending. And some economists say Americans would be willing to spend even more than that, say $100,000 per perfect health year.

No one really knows how much of the U.S. health care dollar goes toward prevention. The most commonly cited number _ 3 cents of every health care dollar _ is based on 20-year-old data.

An updated number _ nearly 9 cents of every health care dollar _ represents about $194 billion, said George Miller, who led the research for the Altarum Institute, a nonprofit consulting group.

Legislation pushed by Senate Democrats mentions "prevention" repeatedly. The Senate panel heading up health reform also calls for more research on prevention, creates a new interagency council to coordinate a national health promotion strategy and permits insurers to give incentives for health promotion and disease prevention.

President Barack Obama as recently as April said investing in prevention "will save huge amounts of money in the long term." And it has become almost an article of faith among Republicans, Democrats and business leaders that prevention reduces health care costs.

But the Congressional Budget Office last week issued a statement on health care overhaul that dismissed the notion that prevention saves money. Prevention "would have clearer positive effects on health than on the federal budget," the CBO said.

The Partnership to Fight Chronic Disease wants the budget office to be more generous with its review of prevention, to take a longer time frame and to calculate savings to the private sector in lower absenteeism and higher productivity.

But researcher Peter Neumann of Tufts Medical Center said counting on disease prevention to save money "promises painless solutions to our health cost problems. I don't think they're going to be painless and they have to be done."

Supporters say each prevention effort should be held to the same standards as surgical techniques, drugs and medical devices, and not be expected to save dollars: Does it work and at a reasonable cost?

Prevention efforts with high value, although not cost-saving, include flu and pneumococcal shots for adults, Pap smears to screen for cervical cancer, colon cancer screening for people 50 and older, and screenings for vision problems, high blood pressure, high cholesterol and problem drinking.

Each of those things costs less than $35,000 per year of perfect health.

Those strategies are a good place to start when money is limited, experts say.

"Some preventive services save money and some don't. Many of the services that don't save money improve people's lives at relatively low cost," said Robert Gould, president of the nonprofit Partnership for Prevention. "I think that's what the American public wants from health reform."
Davis 2.0
Newsmax advertises a cure for cancer. I'm not sure they should be your #1 source of info.
Arturo_Vandelay
Everyone advertizes, it's where the profit is. The articles just get people to read.
patheticJT
Saying One Thing, Doing Another
by Rich Tucker

In a political landscape littered by multi-billion dollar bailouts, massive protests in Iran and an attempted federal takeover of the health care system, one story recently passed with barely a ripple.

“Six Flags Declares Bankruptcy,” was tucked away on page A6 of The Washington Post on June 14. And rightly so, since the story about a failing theme park chain wasn’t nearly as crucial as the paper’s front pager on the Obama administration’s spending plan. That story included a handy graphic showing that the president intends to borrow $9 trillion in the next decade, almost three times the cost of World War II.

So why is Six Flags under water? “We inherited an unsustainable $2.4 billion debt load from the previous management team,” chief executive Mark Shapiro announced. The company plans to cuts costs and eliminate debt.

There’s a lesson there, should anyone in the administration care to learn it. In the real world, if your predecessor runs up too much debt, you have to reduce that debt to survive.

Instead, President Obama insists that, while “the reckless fiscal policies of the past have left us in a very deep hole,” he still plans to borrow trillions more. Odd.

The disconnect between the president’s words and his actions is even starker when it comes to health care.

“There are millions of Americans who are content with their health care coverage -- they like their plan and, most importantly, they value their relationship with their doctor,” Obama recently told the American Medical Association. “If you like your health care plan, you’ll be able to keep your health care plan, period. No one will take it away, no matter what.” Sounds good.

However, then he announced a proposal that would, inevitably, take away millions of people’s private plans. He declared support for a “public option” that would purportedly “inject competition into the health care market so that we can force waste out of the system and keep the insurance companies honest.”

Of course, he’s talking about a government-run health insurance plan. And it’s worth noting that the government doesn’t compete; it compels. Once Washington is offering health insurance, it’ll start setting prices for services that are lower than those services are worth. This is how it squeezes costs down in Medicare, where private insurance companies pay more to make up the difference.

Over time, private insurance companies will lose money and be forced out of business, and that means millions of Americans will, indeed, lose their current coverage. Meanwhile, small business owners will stop offering health benefits. After all, why should they pay for something that the government is willing to pay for?

The respected Lewin Group estimates that in a Medicare-style federal plan, up to 119 million of the 170 million Americans who have private coverage today could lose it. So Obama’s being misleading when he says, “When you hear the naysayers claim that I’m trying to bring about government-run health care, know this: They’re not telling the truth.” Because the truth is, a “public option” means there will eventually be virtually no “private options” in health care.

Americans are becoming familiar with such verbal sleight of hand. In April the president ordered his cabinet to identify $100 million in savings -- a drop in the bucket of his debt-laden $3.69 trillion proposed budget.

In June Obama announces, “What I have no interest in doing is running GM,” after he fired the company’s CEO, named his replacement and steered the company through a special bankruptcy that benefits the United Auto Workers union.

Obama says he wants “To get GM back on its feet, take a hands-off approach and get out quickly,” then pours tens of billions of taxpayer dollars into the company with no apparent exit strategy. So what are Americans to believe: The president’s words, or his actions?

In the early days of this administration, the focus was on speed. It raced to pass a “stimulus” bill we didn’t need, for example. As Congress considers health care reform it needs to slow down and take a good look at what the president says, and consider what his policies would really mean for all of us -- before we make a mistake that cannot be undone.

arebuntz
QUOTE
Private for-profit clinics are a booming business in Canada -- a country often touted as a successful example of a universal health system.

Facing long waits and substandard care, private clinics are proving that Canadians are willing to pay for treatment.

"Any wait time was an enormous frustration for me and also pain. I just couldn't live my life the way I wanted to," says Canadian patient Christine Crossman, who was told she could wait up to a year for an MRI after injuring her hip during an exercise class. Warned she would have to wait for the scan, and then wait even longer for surgery, Crossman opted for a private clinic.

As the Obama administration prepares to launch its legislative effort to create a national health care system, many experts on both sides of the debate site Canada as a successful model.

But the Canadian system is not without its problems. Critics lament the shortage of doctors as patients flood the system, resulting in long waits for some treatment.

"No question, it was worth the money," said Crossman, who paid several hundred dollars and waited just a few days.

Health care delivery in Canada falls largely under provincial jurisdiction, complicating matters.

Private for-profit clinics are permitted in some provinces and not allowed in others. Under the Canada Health Act, privately run facilities cannot charge citizens for services covered by government insurance.

But a 2005 Supreme Court ruling in Quebec opened the door for patients facing unreasonable wait times to pay-out-of-pocket for private treatment.

"I think there is a fundamental shift in different parts of the country that's beginning to happen. I think people are beginning to realize that they should have a choice," says Luc Boulay, a partner at St. Joseph MRI, a private clinic in Quebec that charges around $700 for most scans.

Yet advocates looking to preserve fairness claim that private clinics undermine the very foundation of the country's healthcare system.

"Private clinics don't produce one new doctor, nurse, or specialist. All they do it take the existing ones out of the public system, make wait times longer for everybody else while people who can pay more and more and more money jump the queue for health care services," said Natalie Mehra, member of the Ontario Health Coalition.

Canada spends $3,600 per capita on health care -- almost half of what is spent in the U.S. And while some in Washington look to its northern neighbor for ideas, the Canadian system is still changing.

"One can understand that this is evolving and a mix of private and public seems to be favorable in some context. On the other hand, we need to be really careful that we're not treating health care the way we treat a value meal at McDonalds," Dr. Michael Orsini from the University of Ottawa told FOX News.

Provincial governments now face the difficult job of finding a balance in meeting the country's health care needs -- reducing wait times and maintaining fair access without redefining the universal ideals at the core of Canada's health care system.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/30...test=latestnews
underhi2p
You're either fer it, er 'gainst it.

Arturo_Vandelay
They found out about UHC the long hard way, and are fixing the problems. We ought to learn something from them and just skip having the problems they're having.
inyerface
arebuntz
QUOTE
We saw this in Canada, where we did find one area of medicine that offers easy access to cutting-edge technology -- CT scan, endoscopy, thoracoscopy, laparoscopy, etc. It was open 24/7. Patients didn't have to wait.

But you have to bark or meow to get that kind of treatment. Animal care is the one area of medicine that hasn't been taken over by the government. Dogs can get a CT scan in one day. For people, the waiting list is a month.


http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/Story?i...8656&page=1
beasty
QUOTE
But you have to bark or meow to get that kind of treatment. Animal care is the one area of medicine that hasn't been taken over by the government. Dogs can get a CT scan in one day. For people, the waiting list is a month.


You get what you pay for. For UHC a month probably isn't that bad.
inyerface
QUOTE (beasty @ Jul 2 2009, 12:36 PM) *
You get what you pay for.


no we don't
Davis 2.0
As part of a “record-breaking influence campaign,” the nation’s “largest insurers, hospitals and medical groups have hired more than 350 former government staff members and retired members of Congress” to lobby Capitol Hill “in hopes of influencing their old bosses and colleagues” on health care legislation. The industry is “spending more than $1.4 million a day on lobbying in the current fight.”


http://thinkprogress.org/


Familiar Players in Health Bill Lobbying
Firms Are Enlisting Ex-Lawmakers, Aides



The nation's largest insurers, hospitals and medical groups have hired more than 350 former government staff members and retired members of Congress in hopes of influencing their old bosses and colleagues, according to an analysis of lobbying disclosures and other records.


The tactic is so widespread that three of every four major health-care firms have at least one former insider on their lobbying payrolls, according to The Washington Post's analysis.

Nearly half of the insiders previously worked for the key committees and lawmakers, including Sens. Max Baucus (D-Mont.) and Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa), debating whether to adopt a public insurance option opposed by major industry groups. At least 10 others have been members of Congress, such as former House majority leaders Richard K. Armey (R-Tex.) and Richard A. Gephardt (D-Mo.), both of whom represent a New Jersey pharmaceutical firm.

The hirings are part of a record-breaking influence campaign by the health-care industry, which is spending more than $1.4 million a day on lobbying in the current fight, according to disclosure records. And even in a city where lobbying is a part of life, the scale of the effort has drawn attention. For example, the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) doubled its spending to nearly $7 million in the first quarter of 2009, followed by Pfizer, with more than $6 million.

The push has reunited many who worked together in government on health-care reform, but are now employed as advocates for pharmaceutical and insurance companies.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...ss=rss_politics
underhi2p
QUOTE (Davis 2.0 @ Jul 6 2009, 09:48 AM) *
As part of a “record-breaking influence campaign,” the nation’s “largest insurers, hospitals and medical groups have hired more than 350 former government staff members and retired members of Congress” to lobby Capitol Hill “in hopes of influencing their old bosses and colleagues” on health care legislation. The industry is “spending more than $1.4 million a day on lobbying in the current fight.”


Big Pharma
Big Scooter
Big Abortion

are all a playin'.

It's a god damned free for all.

Change and Hope

Hope and Change
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