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arebuntz
QUOTE (Arturo_Vandelay @ Jul 15 2009, 09:16 PM) *
I think it's more than debatable. Like the admin cost of medicare, just because a small part of something is more efficient, the entirety of it isn't always cheaper overall.

Medicare doesn't have the overhead of finding customers, jackbooted gubment thugs bring them customers...

Medicare doesn't have the overhead of collecting revenue, jackbooted gubment thugs bring them revenue...


Still Rs and Ds are terrible about explaining that we all, gubment and private spend say $2.5 trillion every year on healthcare. It's split about 50/50 now so gubment spending is about $1.25 trillion under the current system. If the new system results in gubment spending of $2 trillion and private spending of $.5 trillion then we are not spending any more we are just spending a greater share via the gubment and a smaller share via the private sector.

The current bills are all pretty much the same, premium support with a gubment plan as a choice then I suspect in short order private insurance companies will figure out how to direct the sick and poor into the gubment plan and keep the healthy and wealthy for themselves and increasing numbers of providers will not accept any of the gubment plans including Medicare. Then we will see what the next gubment move is...
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE (arebuntz @ Jul 16 2009, 09:46 AM) *
The current bills are all pretty much the same, premium support with a gubment plan as a choice then I suspect in short order private insurance companies will figure out how to direct the sick and poor into the gubment plan and keep the healthy and wealthy for themselves and increasing numbers of providers will not accept any of the gubment plans including Medicare. Then we will see what the next gubment move is...

I think you've got it.
arebuntz
The next gubment move will be to funnel more of the healthy into the public plan probably by taxing the private plans based on healthy/sick patient ratio and force providers to accept the public plan...

That's when the old cruise ships converted to medical centers will show up offshore...
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (arebuntz @ Jul 16 2009, 07:46 AM) *
Medicare doesn't have the overhead of finding customers, jackbooted gubment thugs bring them customers...

Medicare doesn't have the overhead of collecting revenue, jackbooted gubment thugs bring them revenue...


It's called saving on administration. Sure, sometimes I call it Stalinism.

All the new taxes will require thugs to collect them. I know they can't afford to have anyone working for cash or favors like I do when I pick up my groceries and have my employers pay for them.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (arebuntz @ Jul 16 2009, 08:41 AM) *
The next gubment move will be to funnel more of the healthy into the public plan probably by taxing the private plans based on healthy/sick patient ratio and force providers to accept the public plan...

That's when the old cruise ships converted to medical centers will show up offshore...



Offshoring literally. One of the many unintended consequences of liberal economics.
arebuntz
From the House Plan...

QUOTE
6 SEC. 314. AUTHORITY RELATED TO IMPROPER STEERING.
7 The Health Choices Commissioner (in coordination
8 with the Secretary of Labor, the Secretary of Health and
9 Human Services, and the Secretary of the Treasury) shall
10 have authority to set standards for determining whether
11 employers or insurers are undertaking any actions to
12 affect the risk pool within the Health Insurance Exchange
13 by inducing individuals to decline coverage under a quali
14 fied health benefits plan (or current employment-based
15 health plan (within the meaning of section 102(cool.gif)) of
16fered by the employer and instead to enroll in an Ex
17change-participating health benefits plan. An employer
18 violating such standards shall be treated as not meeting
19 the requirements of this section.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE (arebuntz @ Jul 16 2009, 02:25 PM) *
From the House Plan...

An anti risk-dumping provision?
arebuntz
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Jul 16 2009, 03:48 PM) *
An anti risk-dumping provision?

I have heard them talking about risk leveling but it looks like it is in at least this version of the bill...
arebuntz
Bad news for the Scooter Store

QUOTE
3 WHEELCHAIRS.
4 (a) IN GENERAL.—Section 1834(a)(7)(A)(iii) of the
5 Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395m(a)(7)(A)(iii)) is
6 amended—
7 (1) in the heading, by inserting ‘‘CERTAIN COM
8 PLEX REHABILITATIVE’’ after ‘‘OPTION FOR’’; and
9 (2) by striking ‘‘power-driven wheelchair’’ and
10 inserting ‘‘complex rehabilitative power-driven wheel
11 chair recognized by the Secretary as classified within
12 group 3 or higher’’.
arebuntz
QUOTE
Centrist Dem Leader: Has Committee Votes To Block Health Bill

By Martin Vaughan, Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

WASHINGTON -(Dow Jones)- U.S. Rep. Mike Ross, D-Ark., a leader of fiscally conservative House Democrats, said Wednesday a House plan to overhaul the U.S. health-care system is losing support and will be stuck in committee without changes.

"Last time I checked, it takes seven Democrats to stop a bill in the Energy and Commerce Committee," Ross told reporters after a House vote. "We had seven against it last Friday; we have 10 today."

Three House committees are slated to begin considering the $1 trillion-plus bill this week, but the Energy and Commerce looms as the biggest challenge. That's because it counts among its 36 Democratic members seven members of the Blue Dog Coalition, a fiscally conservative bloc that is opposing the House Democrats' effort.

Ross said the bill, introduced Wednesday by House Democratic leaders, doesn't include provisions adequate to curb rising health care costs, including what the government spends on healthcare.

"The current bill would have to be substantially amended before we could consider supporting it," Ross said.

The Energy and Commerce panel is scheduled to meet Thursday afternoon to kick off its review of the legislation, but its session is expected to stretch into late next week.

Ross said Blue Dogs have been meeting every day to craft amendments that will be offered during that meeting, but offered no details on what those amendments are. He said those amendments could number in the dozens.

Ross said he expects Blue Dogs will meet with the panel's chairman, Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., soon to discuss their specific proposed changes.

-By Martin Vaughan, Dow Jones Newswires; 202-862-9244; martin.vaughan@ dowjones.com


http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stockmarketnews...sdjonline000758

Could be a straight to the floor move coming up...
Repub_Bub
QUOTE (arebuntz @ Jul 16 2009, 01:49 PM) *
Bad news for the Scooter Store

This is only the tip of the iceberg...universities and vocational entities will offer cources in Healthcare Interpretation.

This will range from degrees in purely legal theory stemming from the fact tha no one actually read the legislation ... to diplomas in the enforcement of humdrum rules and regulations implemented by local ribbon clerks.

Any cash left over from paying for these folks will presumably be applied toward actual healthcare.
inyerface
Arturo_Vandelay
Where's the Bayer Buffered Heroin?
patheticJT
Hondo
QUOTE (patheticJT @ Jul 17 2009, 09:25 AM) *


With UHC there will be no uninsured, but the insurance you get for free will be worth just what you pay for it.
arebuntz
Not a sustainable insurance model where the beneficiary is not paying the premium. Medicare hangs on cause folks think they prepaid the premium when they were working.

There is still time for Rs and moderate Ds to embrace the Wyden Plan...

QUOTE
THE HEALTHY AMERICANS ACT

…guarantees universal, private health insurance for ALL Americans.

Under the new system, every American will have the power to choose a comprehensive health insurance plan, and—with individuals, employers and government each investing something into the system—insurance will be guaranteed to be affordable for every American.

The Healthy Americans Act will match insurers with health care consumers in an environment designed for competition. Each state, with financial support from the Federal government and insurance companies, will establish a Health Help Agency. Health Help Agencies will lower administrative costs by coordinating payments from employers, individuals and government. These agencies will also provide consumers with unbiased information about competing private health plans and determine premium reductions that will ensure every American can afford their health plan. With the resources to compare plans based on quality, cost and service, individuals—rather than their employers—will be empowered to choose the health plan that works best for them and their families.

Government will be responsible for ensuring that every American has and can afford health insurance. Every time an individual interacts with state, local and federal government—registering their car, enrolling their children in school, applying for a driver’s license or paying their taxes—they can be required to verify their enrollment in a private health insurance plan. Government will in turn ensure that every American can afford health care by working through the Health Help Agencies to lower premiums and by providing standard health care tax deductions for individuals and families.

…promises the level of care that Members of Congres enjoy at an affordable price.

The Healthy Americans Act creates a system of tax benefits and premium reductions that will ensure every American can afford a high‐quality, private health plan that is comparable to what Members of Congress enjoy now. Previous and existing health problems, occupation, genetic information, gender and age will no longer be allowed to impact eligibility or the price paid for insurance. Rather, insurance companies will be required to cover every individual who chooses to enroll and can not raise prices or deny coverage if individuals are sick.

One of the ways The Healthy Americans Act guarantees affordable health care is by putting more money in people’s pockets. For the first two years of the new system, employers who currently
provide employee health benefits will be required to convert their health care premiums into higher wages that employees will use to purchase their own private health insurance.

Employers who do not currently provide health benefits will be required to begin making phased‐in “Employer Shared Responsibility Payments.” These payments will be used to ensure that everyone can afford their health plans by funding premium reductions.

After two years, all employers will be making ʺEmployer Shared Responsibility Payments.ʺ These payments will reflect the relative ability to pay of small and large employers and low‐ and high‐wage industries and will have no impact on the insurance coverage of their individual employees.

As part of a competitive compensation package, employers can continue to provide wellness, prevention benefits and long‐term care insurance. They can also help their employees sign‐up for health plans through a state‐based Health Help Agency. Just as under the current system, employers can continue to withhold premiums from their employees’ paychecks.

…focuses insurance companies on keeping Americans healthy.

The Healthy Americans Act focuses on preventive care by giving insurance companies a financial incentive to keep their subscribers healthy. By investing in prevention and disease management, insurance companies will be able to give individuals a reason to choose plans that keep them healthy and, in the long run, to stay with the same insurer. And as consumers will have access to information on every plan’s success in prevention and disease management, insurance companies will ultimately be competing to keep Americans healthy.

Individuals will be rewarded when they or their children successfully participate in wellness programs. Primary care will assume greater importance in the system by allowing patients to designate a primary care provider to manage their care and help them navigate the health care system, and by reimbursing health care providers for time spent outside of the exam room, The Healthy Americans Act rewards providers for helping their patients stay healthy.

…contains the rising cost of health care—saving $1.48 trillion. TThe Healthy Americans Act relies on competition to drive down costs and promote quality. No longer grouping individuals according to their employees, the plan expands the pool of health care consumers— allowing insurance companies to remain profitable while driving down prices.

The Healthy Americans Act also works toward better investment of America’s health care dollars. By assuring that every individual has adequate coverage and use of prevention and wellness services, taxpayers will no longer be asked to foot the bill for expensive visits to the emergency room.

Ultimately under The Healthy Americans Act, the average annual rate of growth in health spending will slow by 0.86% between 2007‐2016; this will result in savings of $1.48 trillion.

…assures every American that their health care can never be taken away.

The Healthy Americans Act provides health care that is more dependable than employment. By putting Americans—rather than their employers—in charge of health care, everyone will be guaranteed quality care, even if they change jobs, lose their job or become too sick to work a job. By reducing premiums for individuals and families who may encounter difficulty, The Healthy Americans Act promises that you will not only always be able to afford your insurance, you will always have care.
Nomarchy
QUOTE (Hondo @ Jul 17 2009, 09:43 AM) *
With UHC there will be no uninsured, but the insurance you get for free will be worth just what you pay for it.



And you know this based on what? Your years of experience having lived under a variety of UHC systems?

Trust me, there are some things that are a LOT better under a UHC system, and some things that are a LOT better under a system like ours. Amazingly enough, some of the things that we THINK are so much better under our system actually suck about as much as they do under a UHC system, and vice-versa.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (Nomarchy @ Jul 17 2009, 02:34 PM) *
Trust me, there are some things that are a LOT better under a UHC system, and some things that are a LOT better under a system like ours.


Of course some groups get better treatment under one system than the other. How about we skew toward the system that has the most upside provided by free choice and effort as opposed to chance and one's mere act of being born.

Let's get BB on it. He has experience under both systems.
Nomarchy
QUOTE (Arturo_Vandelay @ Jul 17 2009, 04:22 PM) *
Of course some groups get better treatment under one system than the other. How about we skew toward the system that has the most upside provided by free choice and effort as opposed to chance and one's mere act of being born.

Let's get BB on it. He has experience under both systems.



So have I. With one parent having had two angioplasties and one with a long term psychiatric disorder, both having been treated under a modified UHC system (kinda like the Belgium, Germany and Netherlands systems). And a wife-to-be who had to undergo thyroidectomy because of cancer (confirmed in the biopsy) whilst being covered by one of those "small business"-friendly private insurance plans. My own h.i. has been PPO and for the last 10 years HMO, with a sizeable state employer.

I have to say that a good HMO is probably the best all-around deal.
Arturo_Vandelay
HMO's don't bother me. For an affordable choice of last resort the HMO seems like a possibility for pooling risks nobody can afford and the rest of the system needs to take care of. Last I heard more people were happy with them than one would assume, given an imperfect world and limited resources.
BrooklynBill
QUOTE (Arturo_Vandelay @ Jul 17 2009, 11:22 PM) *
Of course some groups get better treatment under one system than the other. How about we skew toward the system that has the most upside provided by free choice and effort as opposed to chance and one's mere act of being born.

Let's get BB on it. He has experience under both systems.


I can't comment on all of Europe. In Italy, for example, it depends on where you live. If you live in northern Italy, you'll get the best care on the whole continent. If, on the other hand, you live below Rome, I wish you the best. laugh.gif

Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (BrooklynBill @ Jul 17 2009, 07:43 PM) *
I can't comment on all of Europe. In Italy, for example, it depends on where you live. If you live in northern Italy, you'll get the best care on the whole continent. If, on the other hand, you live below Rome, I wish you the best. laugh.gif



I hear FIAT makes good replacement parts.......
BrooklynBill
QUOTE (Arturo_Vandelay @ Jul 18 2009, 02:59 AM) *
I hear FIAT makes good replacement parts.......


FIAT actually manufactures a decent car.

I did own a Ducati at one point (a used one).
arebuntz
Classic example of what I was talking about the other day...

QUOTE
The health care overhauls released to date would increase, not reduce, the burgeoning long-term health costs facing the government, Congressional Budget Office Director Douglas Elmendorf said Thursday.

That is not a message likely to sit well with congressional Democrats or the Obama administration, and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi , D-Calif., said Thursday she thinks lawmakers can find ways to wring more costs out of the health system as they continue work on their bills.

The chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, Democrat Max Baucus of Montana, who has not yet released a bill, said his panel is acutely aware of the long-term cost concern. “Clearly our committee will do what it can,” he said. “We are very seriously concerned about that issue. We very much want to come up with a bill that bends the cost curve."


http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?parm...ws-000003168293

Without saying what it does to TOTAL (private and gubment) health care spending we don't really know if it is increasing health care spending or just shifting it from private to gubment...
arebuntz
Gubments don't negotiate rates, they set them... preview of the future for all...

QUOTE
The White House is asking Congress to give the executive branch more power to limit Medicare's rising costs.

A White House letter to top lawmakers on Friday said the move would be "a critical step forward" in controlling health care costs and providing better care.

The proposal would allow an independent advisory board to recommend changes in Medicare reimbursement rates for doctors, hospitals and other providers. If the president approved the recommendations, Congress could still vote to reject them altogether. But Congress could not approve some recommendations and reject others.

Currently, Medicare reimbursement rates vary from region to region. Key lawmakers often get involved in setting local rates, a practice the Obama administration plan would end.


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9...;show_article=1
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (arebuntz @ Jul 19 2009, 05:29 AM) *
Gubments don't negotiate rates, they set them



I'm stealing that line, though I've probably said it before.
inyerface
they sell them
BrooklynBill
NY Times endorses health care rationing..... blink.gif I've been aware of Peter Singer for years - and I've read most of his papers.





Why We Must Ration Health Care
By PETER SINGER

You have advanced kidney cancer. It will kill you, probably in the next year or two. A drug called Sutent slows the spread of the cancer and may give you an extra six months, but at a cost of $54,000. Is a few more months worth that much?

If you can afford it, you probably would pay that much, or more, to live longer, even if your quality of life wasn't going to be good. But suppose it's not you with the cancer but a stranger covered by your health-insurance fund. If the insurer provides this man — and everyone else like him — with Sutent, your premiums will increase. Do you still think the drug is a good value? Suppose the treatment cost a million dollars. Would it be worth it then? Ten million? Is there any limit to how much you would want your insurer to pay for a drug that adds six months to someone's life? If there is any point at which you say, "No, an extra six months isn't worth that much," then you think that health care should be rationed.

In the current U.S. debate over health care reform, "rationing" has become a dirty word. Meeting last month with five governors, President Obama urged them to avoid using the term, apparently for fear of evoking the hostile response that sank the Clintons' attempt to achieve reform. In a Wall Street Journal op-ed published at the end of last year with the headline "Obama Will Ration Your Health Care," Sally Pipes, C.E.O. of the conservative Pacific Research Institute, described how in Britain the national health service does not pay for drugs that are regarded as not offering good value for money, and added, "Americans will not put up with such limits, nor will our elected representatives." And the Democratic chair of the Senate Finance Committee, Senator Max Baucus, told CNSNews in April, "There is no rationing of health care at all" in the proposed reform.

Remember the joke about the man who asks a woman if she would have sex with him for a million dollars? She reflects for a few moments and then answers that she would. "So," he says, "would you have sex with me for $50?" Indignantly, she exclaims, "What kind of a woman do you think I am?" He replies: "We've already established that. Now we're just haggling about the price." The man's response implies that if a woman will sell herself at any price, she is a prostitute. The way we regard rationing in health care seems to rest on a similar assumption, that it's immoral to apply monetary considerations to saving lives — but is that stance tenable?

Health care is a scarce resource, and all scarce resources are rationed in one way or another. In the United States, most health care is privately financed, and so most rationing is by price: you get what you, or your employer, can afford to insure you for. But our current system of employer-financed health insurance exists only because the federal government encouraged it by making the premiums tax deductible. That is, in effect, a more than $200 billion government subsidy for health care. In the public sector, primarily Medicare, Medicaid and hospital emergency rooms, health care is rationed by long waits, high patient copayment requirements, low payments to doctors that discourage some from serving public patients and limits on payments to hospitals.

The case for explicit health care rationing in the United States starts with the difficulty of thinking of any other way in which we can continue to provide adequate health care to people on Medicaid and Medicare, let alone extend coverage to those who do not now have it. Health-insurance premiums have more than doubled in a decade, rising four times faster than wages. In May, Medicare's trustees warned that the program's biggest fund is heading for insolvency in just eight years. Health care now absorbs about one dollar in every six the nation spends, a figure that far exceeds the share spent by any other nation. According to the Congressional Budget Office, it is on track to double by 2035.

President Obama has said plainly that America's health care system is broken. It is, he has said, by far the most significant driver of America's long-term debt and deficits. It is hard to see how the nation as a whole can remain competitive if in 26 years we are spending nearly a third of what we earn on health care, while other industrialized nations are spending far less but achieving health outcomes as good as, or better than, ours.

Rationing health care means getting value for the billions we are spending by setting limits on which treatments should be paid for from the public purse. If we ration we won't be writing blank checks to pharmaceutical companies for their patented drugs, nor paying for whatever procedures doctors choose to recommend. When public funds subsidize health care or provide it directly, it is crazy not to try to get value for money. The debate over health care reform in the United States should start from the premise that some form of health care rationing is both inescapable and desirable. Then we can ask, What is the best way to do it?

Last year Britain's National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence gave a preliminary recommendation that the National Health Service should not offer Sutent for advanced kidney cancer. The institute, generally known as NICE, is a government-financed but independently run organization set up to provide national guidance on promoting good health and treating illness. The decision on Sutent did not, at first glance, appear difficult. NICE had set a general limit of £30,000, or about $49,000, on the cost of extending life for a year. Sutent, when used for advanced kidney cancer, cost more than that, and research suggested it offered only about six months extra life. But the British media leapt on the theme of penny-pinching bureaucrats sentencing sick people to death. The issue was then picked up by the U.S. news media and by those lobbying against health care reform in the United States. An article in The New York Times last December featured Bruce Hardy, a kidney-cancer patient whose wife, Joy, said, "It's hard to know that there is something out there that could help but they're saying you can't have it because of cost." Then she asked the classic question: "What price is life?"

Last November, Bloomberg News focused on Jack Rosser, who was 57 at the time and whose doctor had told him that with Sutent he might live long enough to see his 1-year-old daughter, Emma, enter primary school. Rosser's wife, Jenny, is quoted as saying: "It's immoral. They are sentencing him to die." In the conservative monthly The American Spectator, David Catron, a health care consultant, describes Rosser as "one of NICE's many victims" and writes that NICE "regularly hands down death sentences to gravely ill patients." Linking the British system with Democratic proposals for reforming health care in the United States, Catron asked whether we really deserve a health care system in which "soulless bureaucrats arbitrarily put a dollar value on our lives." (In March, NICE issued a final ruling on Sutent. Because of how few patients need the drug and because of special end-of-life considerations, it recommended that the drug be provided by the National Health Service to patients with advanced kidney cancer.)

There's no doubt that it's tough — politically, emotionally and ethically — to make a decision that means that someone will die sooner than they would have if the decision had gone the other way. But if the stories of Bruce Hardy and Jack Rosser lead us to think badly of the British system of rationing health care, we should remind ourselves that the U.S. system also results in people going without life-saving treatment — it just does so less visibly. Pharmaceutical manufacturers often charge much more for drugs in the United States than they charge for the same drugs in Britain, where they know that a higher price would put the drug outside the cost-effectiveness limits set by NICE. American patients, even if they are covered by Medicare or Medicaid, often cannot afford the copayments for drugs. That's rationing too, by ability to pay.

Dr. Art Kellermann, associate dean for public policy at Emory School of Medicine in Atlanta, recently wrote of a woman who came into his emergency room in critical condition because a blood vessel had burst in her brain. She was uninsured and had chosen to buy food for her children instead of spending money on her blood-pressure medicine. In the emergency room, she received excellent high-tech medical care, but by the time she got there, it was too late to save her.

A New York Times report on the high costs of some drugs illustrates the problem. Chuck Stauffer, an Oregon farmer, found that his prescription-drug insurance left him to pay $5,500 for his first 42 days of Temodar, a drug used to treat brain tumors, and $1,700 a month after that. For Medicare patients drug costs can be even higher, because Medicare can require a copayment of 25 percent of the cost of the drug. For Gleevec, a drug that is effective against some forms of leukemia and some gastrointestinal tumors, that one-quarter of the cost can run to $40,000 a year.

In Britain, everyone has health insurance. In the U.S., some 45 million do not, and nor are they entitled to any health care at all, unless they can get themselves to an emergency room. Hospitals are prohibited from turning away anyone who will be endangered by being refused treatment. But even in emergency rooms, people without health insurance may receive less health care than those with insurance. Joseph Doyle, a professor of economics at the Sloan School of Management at M.I.T., studied the records of people in Wisconsin who were injured in severe automobile accidents and had no choice but to go to the hospital. He estimated that those who had no health insurance received 20 percent less care and had a death rate 37 percent higher than those with health insurance. This difference held up even when those without health insurance were compared with those without automobile insurance, and with those on Medicaid — groups with whom they share some characteristics that might affect treatment. The lack of insurance seems to be what caused the greater number of deaths.

When the media feature someone like Bruce Hardy or Jack Rosser, we readily relate to individuals who are harmed by a government agency's decision to limit the cost of health care. But we tend not to hear about — and thus don't identify with — the particular individuals who die in emergency rooms because they have no health insurance. This "identifiable victim" effect, well documented by psychologists, creates a dangerous bias in our thinking. Doyle's figures suggest that if those Wisconsin accident victims without health insurance had received equivalent care to those with it, the additional health care would have cost about $220,000 for each life saved. Those who died were on average around 30 years old and could have been expected to live for at least another 40 years; this means that had they survived their accidents, the cost per extra year of life would have been no more than $5,500 — a small fraction of the $49,000 that NICE recommends the British National Health Service should be ready to pay to give a patient an extra year of life. If the U.S. system spent less on expensive treatments for those who, with or without the drugs, have at most a few months to live, it would be better able to save the lives of more people who, if they get the treatment they need, might live for several decades.

Estimates of the number of U.S. deaths caused annually by the absence of universal health insurance go as high as 20,000. One study concluded that in the age group 55 to 64 alone, more than 13,000 extra deaths a year may be attributed to the lack of insurance coverage. But the estimates vary because Americans without health insurance are more likely, for example, to smoke than Americans with health insurance, and sorting out the role that the lack of insurance plays is difficult. Richard Kronick, a professor at the School of Medicine at the University of California, San Diego, cautiously concludes from his own study that there is little evidence to suggest that extending health insurance to all Americans would have a large effect on the number of deaths in the United States. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't; we simply don't know if it would.

In any case, it isn't only uninsured Americans who can't afford treatment. President Obama has spoken about his mother, who died from ovarian cancer in 1995. The president said that in the last weeks of her life, his mother "was spending too much time worrying about whether her health insurance would cover her bills" — an experience, the president went on to say, that his mother shared with millions of other Americans. It is also an experience more common in the United States than in other developed countries. A recent Commonwealth Fund study led by Cathy Schoen and Robin Osborn surveyed adults with chronic illness in Australia, Canada, France, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, the United Kingdom and the United States. Far more Americans reported forgoing health care because of cost. More than half (54 percent) reported not filling a prescription, not visiting a doctor when sick or not getting recommended care. In comparison, in the United Kingdom the figure was 13 percent, and in the Netherlands, only 7 percent. Even among Americans with insurance, 43 percent reported that cost was a problem that had limited the treatment they received. According to a 2007 study led by David Himmelstein, more than 60 percent of all bankruptcies are related to illness, with many of these specifically caused by medical bills, even among those who have health insurance. In Canada the incidence of bankruptcy related to illness is much lower.

When a Washington Post journalist asked Daniel Zemel, a Washington rabbi, what he thought about federal agencies putting a dollar value on human life, the rabbi cited a Jewish teaching explaining that if you put one human life on one side of a scale, and you put the rest of the world on the other side, the scale is balanced equally. Perhaps that is how those who resist health care rationing think. But we already put a dollar value on human life. If the Department of Transportation, for example, followed rabbinical teachings it would exhaust its entire budget on road safety. Fortunately the department sets a limit on how much it is willing to pay to save one human life. In 2008 that limit was $5.8 million. Other government agencies do the same. Last year the Consumer Product Safety Commission considered a proposal to make mattresses less likely to catch fire. Information from the industry suggested that the new standard would cost $343 million to implement, but the Consumer Product Safety Commission calculated that it would save 270 lives a year — and since it valued a human life at around $5 million, that made the new standard a good value. If we are going to have consumer-safety regulation at all, we need some idea of how much safety is worth buying. Like health care bureaucrats, consumer-safety bureaucrats sometimes decide that saving a human life is not worth the expense. Twenty years ago, the National Research Council, an arm of the National Academy of Sciences, examined a proposal for installing seat belts in all school buses. It estimated that doing so would save, on average, one life per year, at a cost of $40 million. After that, support for the proposal faded away. So why is it that those who accept that we put a price on life when it comes to consumer safety refuse to accept it when it comes to health care?

Of course, it's one thing to accept that there's a limit to how much we should spend to save a human life, and another to set that limit. The dollar value that bureaucrats place on a generic human life is intended to reflect social values, as revealed in our behavior. It is the answer to the question "How much are you willing to pay to save your life?" — except that, of course, if you asked that question of people who were facing death, they would be prepared to pay almost anything to save their lives. So instead, economists note how much people are prepared to pay to reduce the risk that they will die. How much will people pay for air bags in a car, for instance? Once you know how much they will pay for a specified reduction in risk, you multiply the amount that people are willing to pay by how much the risk has been reduced, and then you know, or so the theory goes, what value people place on their lives. Suppose that there is a 1 in 100,000 chance that an air bag in my car will save my life, and that I would pay $50 — but no more than that — for an air bag. Then it looks as if I value my life at $50 x 100,000, or $5 million.

The theory sounds good, but in practice it has problems. We are not good at taking account of differences between very small risks, so if we are asked how much we would pay to reduce a risk of dying from 1 in 1,000,000 to 1 in 10,000,000, we may give the same answer as we would if asked how much we would pay to reduce the risk from 1 in 500,000 to 1 in 10,000,000. Hence multiplying what we would pay to reduce the risk of death by the reduction in risk lends an apparent mathematical precision to the outcome of the calculation — the supposed value of a human life — that our intuitive responses to the questions cannot support. Nevertheless this approach to setting a value on a human life is at least closer to what we really believe — and to what we should believe — than dramatic pronouncements about the infinite value of every human life, or the suggestion that we cannot distinguish between the value of a single human life and the value of a million human lives, or even of the rest of the world. Though such feel-good claims may have some symbolic value in particular circumstances, to take them seriously and apply them — for instance, by leaving it to chance whether we save one life or a billion — would be deeply unethical.

Governments implicitly place a dollar value on a human life when they decide how much is to be spent on health care programs and how much on other public goods that are not directed toward saving lives. The task of health care bureaucrats is then to get the best value for the resources they have been allocated. It is the familiar comparative exercise of getting the most bang for your buck. Sometimes that can be relatively easy to decide. If two drugs offer the same benefits and have similar risks of side effects, but one is much more expensive than the other, only the cheaper one should be provided by the public health care program. That the benefits and the risks of side effects are similar is a scientific matter for experts to decide after calling for submissions and examining them. That is the bread-and-butter work of units like NICE. But the benefits may vary in ways that defy straightforward comparison. We need a common unit for measuring the goods achieved by health care. Since we are talking about comparing different goods, the choice of unit is not merely a scientific or economic question but an ethical one.

As a first take, we might say that the good achieved by health care is the number of lives saved. But that is too crude. The death of a teenager is a greater tragedy than the death of an 85-year-old, and this should be reflected in our priorities. We can accommodate that difference by calculating the number of life-years saved, rather than simply the number of lives saved. If a teenager can be expected to live another 70 years, saving her life counts as a gain of 70 life-years, whereas if a person of 85 can be expected to live another 5 years, then saving the 85-year-old will count as a gain of only 5 life-years. That suggests that saving one teenager is equivalent to saving 14 85-year-olds. These are, of course, generic teenagers and generic 85-year-olds. It's easy to say, "What if the teenager is a violent criminal and the 85-year-old is still working productively?" But just as emergency rooms should leave criminal justice to the courts and treat assailants and victims alike, so decisions about the allocation of health care resources should be kept separate from judgments about the moral character or social value of individuals.

Health care does more than save lives: it also reduces pain and suffering. How can we compare saving a person's life with, say, making it possible for someone who was confined to bed to return to an active life? We can elicit people's values on that too. One common method is to describe medical conditions to people — let's say being a quadriplegic — and tell them that they can choose between 10 years in that condition or some smaller number of years without it. If most would prefer, say, 10 years as a quadriplegic to 4 years of nondisabled life, but would choose 6 years of nondisabled life over 10 with quadriplegia, but have difficulty deciding between 5 years of nondisabled life or 10 years with quadriplegia, then they are, in effect, assessing life with quadriplegia as half as good as nondisabled life. (These are hypothetical figures, chosen to keep the math simple, and not based on any actual surveys.) If that judgment represents a rough average across the population, we might conclude that restoring to nondisabled life two people who would otherwise be quadriplegics is equivalent in value to saving the life of one person, provided the life expectancies of all involved are similar.

This is the basis of the quality-adjusted life-year, or QALY, a unit designed to enable us to compare the benefits achieved by different forms of health care. The QALY has been used by economists working in health care for more than 30 years to compare the cost-effectiveness of a wide variety of medical procedures and, in some countries, as part of the process of deciding which medical treatments will be paid for with public money. If a reformed U.S. health care system explicitly accepted rationing, as I have argued it should, QALYs could play a similar role in the U.S.

Some will object that this discriminates against people with disabilities. If we return to the hypothetical assumption that a year with quadriplegia is valued at only half as much as a year without it, then a treatment that extends the lives of people without disabilities will be seen as providing twice the value of one that extends, for a similar period, the lives of quadriplegics. That clashes with the idea that all human lives are of equal value. The problem, however, does not lie with the concept of the quality-adjusted life-year, but with the judgment that, if faced with 10 years as a quadriplegic, one would prefer a shorter lifespan without a disability. Disability advocates might argue that such judgments, made by people without disabilities, merely reflect the ignorance and prejudice of people without disabilities when they think about people with disabilities. We should, they will very reasonably say, ask quadriplegics themselves to evaluate life with quadriplegia. If we do that, and we find that quadriplegics would not give up even one year of life as a quadriplegic in order to have their disability cured, then the QALY method does not justify giving preference to procedures that extend the lives of people without disabilities over procedures that extend the lives of people with disabilities.

This method of preserving our belief that everyone has an equal right to life is, however, a double-edged sword. If life with quadriplegia is as good as life without it, there is no health benefit to be gained by curing it. That implication, no doubt, would have been vigorously rejected by someone like Christopher Reeve, who, after being paralyzed in an accident, campaigned for more research into ways of overcoming spinal-cord injuries. Disability advocates, it seems, are forced to choose between insisting that extending their lives is just as important as extending the lives of people without disabilities, and seeking public support for research into a cure for their condition.

The QALY tells us to do what brings about the greatest health benefit, irrespective of where that benefit falls. Usually, for a given quantity of resources, we will do more good if we help those who are worst off, because they have the greatest unmet needs. But occasionally some conditions will be both very severe and very expensive to treat. A QALY approach may then lead us to give priority to helping others who are not so badly off and whose conditions are less expensive to treat. I don't find it unfair to give the same weight to the interests of those who are well off as we give to those who are much worse off, but if there is a social consensus that we should give priority to those who are worse off, we can modify the QALY approach so that it gives greater weight to benefits that accrue to those who are, on the QALY scale, worse off than others.

The QALY approach does not even try to measure the benefits that health care brings in addition to the improvement in health itself. Emotionally, we feel that the fact that Jack Rosser is the father of a young child makes a difference to the importance of extending his life, but his parental status is irrelevant to a QALY assessment of the health care gains that Sutent would bring him. Whether decisions about allocating health care resources should take such personal circumstances into account isn't easy to decide. Not to do so makes the standard inflexible, but taking personal factors into account increases the scope for subjective — and prejudiced — judgments.

The QALY is not a perfect measure of the good obtained by health care, but its defenders can support it in the same way that Winston Churchill defended democracy as a form of government: it is the worst method of allocating health care, except for all the others. If it isn't possible to provide everyone with all beneficial treatments, what better way do we have of deciding what treatments people should get than by comparing the QALYs gained with the expense of the treatments?

Will Americans allow their government, either directly or through an independent agency like NICE, to decide which treatments are sufficiently cost-effective to be provided at public expense and which are not? They might, under two conditions: first, that the option of private health insurance remains available, and second, that they are able to see, in their own pocket, the full cost of not rationing health care.

Rationing public health care limits free choice if private health insurance is prohibited. But many countries combine free national health insurance with optional private insurance. Australia, where I've spent most of my life and raised a family, is one. The U.S. could do something similar. This would mean extending Medicare to the entire population, irrespective of age, but without Medicare's current policy that allows doctors wide latitude in prescribing treatments for eligible patients. Instead, Medicare for All, as we might call it, should refuse to pay where the cost per QALY is extremely high. (On the other hand, Medicare for All would not require more than a token copayment for drugs that are cost-effective.) The extension of Medicare could be financed by a small income-tax levy, for those who pay income tax — in Australia the levy is 1.5 percent of taxable income. (There's an extra 1 percent surcharge for those with high incomes and no private insurance. Those who earn too little to pay income tax would be carried at no cost to themselves.) Those who want to be sure of receiving every treatment that their own privately chosen physicians recommend, regardless of cost, would be free to opt out of Medicare for All as long as they can demonstrate that they have sufficient private health insurance to avoid becoming a burden on the community if they fall ill. Alternatively, they might remain in Medicare for All but take out supplementary insurance for health care that Medicare for All does not cover. Every American will have a right to a good standard of health care, but no one will have a right to unrationed health care. Those who opt for unrationed health care will know exactly how much it costs them.

One final comment. It is common for opponents of health care rationing to point to Canada and Britain as examples of where we might end up if we get "socialized medicine." On a blog on Fox News earlier this year, the conservative writer John Lott wrote, "Americans should ask Canadians and Brits — people who have long suffered from rationing — how happy they are with central government decisions on eliminating 'unnecessary' health care." There is no particular reason that the United States should copy the British or Canadian forms of universal coverage, rather than one of the different arrangements that have developed in other industrialized nations, some of which may be better. But as it happens, last year the Gallup organization did ask Canadians and Brits, and people in many different countries, if they have confidence in "health care or medical systems" in their country. In Canada, 73 percent answered this question affirmatively. Coincidentally, an identical percentage of Britons gave the same answer. In the United States, despite spending much more, per person, on health care, the figure was only 56 percent.

Peter Singer is professor of bioethics at Princeton University. He is also laureate professor at the University of Melbourne, in Australia. His most recent book is "The Life You Can Save: Acting Now to End World Poverty."

This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: July 19, 2009
An article in The Times Magazine this weekend about the argument for rationing health care in the United States misstates the number of years it would take under the current system for the country to spend nearly a third of what it earns on health care. It is 26 years from now, or 2035, not 15 years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/magazine/19healthcare-t.html?pagewanted=all ://http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/m...pagewanted=all ://http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/m...pagewanted=all
Arturo_Vandelay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer
BrooklynBill
QUOTE (Arturo_Vandelay @ Jul 19 2009, 09:30 PM) *


He's another kook.

I've spent hundreds of hours researching the eugenics movement. I've created a detailed flowchart which details the intellectual and policy goals of the this particular movement. Bioethics and the environmental movement are nothing more than window dressing for a mass culling of humanity.

I suggest you start with the work of Sir Julian Huxley.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (BrooklynBill @ Jul 19 2009, 02:41 PM) *
He's another kook.

I've spent hundreds of hours researching the eugenics movement. I've created a detailed flowchart which details the intellectual and policy goals of the this particular movement. Bioethics and the environmental movement are nothing more than window dressing for a mass culling of humanity.

I suggest you start with the work of Sir Julian Huxley.


I left a post on the News Today thread about it. Tennis in the heat beat my brain down....... Can't do too much or my head will burst. smile.gif
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (BrooklynBill @ Jul 19 2009, 02:41 PM) *
Bioethics and the environmental movement are nothing more than window dressing for a mass culling of humanity.




Let the old, sick and expensive go first. A dem congressman already suggested that.
SpaceCowboy
Health care is already "rationed" to the extent that most "insurance" does not cover some treatments.

So long as the individual is not prohibited from buying any treatment which is legal I don't think that "insurance" not paying for some treatments is really much of an issue.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Jul 19 2009, 02:47 PM) *
Health care is already "rationed" to the extent that most "insurance" does not cover some treatments.

So long as the individual is not prohibited from buying any treatment which is legal I don't think that "insurance" not paying for some treatments is really much of an issue.


At some point state control will leave no disposable income for anyone but the very rich or connected to get healthcare with. The rich you know, the connected will be politicians.
arebuntz
QUOTE (Arturo_Vandelay @ Jul 19 2009, 03:35 PM) *
I'm stealing that line, though I've probably said it before.

It didn't originate with me... true as it is...
arebuntz
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Jul 19 2009, 05:47 PM) *
Health care is already "rationed" to the extent that most "insurance" does not cover some treatments.

So long as the individual is not prohibited from buying any treatment which is legal I don't think that "insurance" not paying for some treatments is really much of an issue.

I was just looking for a place to say the same thing. If we gonna have gubment health plans I will be pushing that they cover as little as possible and leave the rest up to personal choice...
inyerface
same for congress & military
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (arebuntz @ Jul 19 2009, 03:41 PM) *
I was just looking for a place to say the same thing. If we gonna have gubment health plans I will be pushing that they cover as little as possible and leave the rest up to personal choice...


Might as well push for fish not to swim and birds not to fly.
inyerface
What Government Does Better: Health Insurance

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/44583
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE (inyerface @ Jul 19 2009, 06:22 PM) *
What Government Does Better: Health Insurance

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/44583



From the article above:

QUOTE
8) Offer physicians the same legal protection from malpractice lawsuits which have been established for commercial health insurance corporations during the last 3 decades. This will
allow family practitioners and internists to fulfill their role as primary care physicians efficiently and productively tackling dynamic illnesses without prematurely referring their sicker patients to expensive specialists. Limiting med mal lawsuits against physicians and hospitals will also allow doctors and hospitals to use the national EMR and outcome data for the common good, thereby improving underperforming hospitals, doctors and therapists instead of simply suing their scrubs off.


This key piece seems to be strangely missing from the health care reform agenda in Congress.
inyerface
arebuntz
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Jul 19 2009, 07:36 PM) *
From the article above:



This key piece seems to be strangely missing from the health care reform agenda in Congress.

Yes, funny how limiting lawsuits only works when the gubment is the defendent...
arebuntz
QUOTE (Arturo_Vandelay @ Jul 19 2009, 06:49 PM) *
Might as well push for fish not to swim and birds not to fly.

For some reason tilting at windmills never gets old for me...
Bob_K
QUOTE (arebuntz @ Jul 19 2009, 07:12 PM) *
For some reason tilting at windmills never gets old for me...


The government is the one windmill nobody can beat. You can piss and moan, but it never gets any smaller.
inyerface
can we say out of control
arebuntz
QUOTE (Bob_K @ Jul 19 2009, 10:21 PM) *
The government is the one windmill nobody can beat. You can piss and moan, but it never gets any smaller.

We've won a few fights at the local level...
Davis 2.0
QUOTE (BrooklynBill @ Jul 19 2009, 04:41 PM) *
He's another kook.

I've spent hundreds of hours researching the eugenics movement. I've created a detailed flowchart which details the intellectual and policy goals of the this particular movement. Bioethics and the environmental movement are nothing more than window dressing for a mass culling of humanity.

I suggest you start with the work of Sir Julian Huxley.




(shakes head)
arebuntz
"Tax the wealthy to keep everyone healthy" Robert Reich

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/...lthy/index.html
arebuntz
QUOTE
The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office dealt another blow to House Democrats on Friday night, saying their health care bill would increase the federal deficit by $239 billion over the next 10 years.

The projected shortfall means Democrats would need to find additional revenue or make deeper cuts to existing programs in order to meet their goal of paying for the $1 trillion bill.

But those projections don't account for a $245 billion reduction in the deficit this legislation would create, if Democrats can also approve new balanced budget rules that would permanently address an annual shortfall in Medicare payments to physicians Democrats may also defend the cost of their bill by pointing out that in the long run, under new accounting rules, the bill would generate a $6 billion surplus.

The CBO also found that the measure would provide health coverage to 37 million people, — meaning 97 percent of all U.S. citizens would be covered by some form of health care if these changes are enacted.

The plan would leave 17 million people within the U.S. uninsured — nearly half of whom would be illegal immigrants who are denied coverage under the bill.


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/25104.html
BrooklynBill
QUOTE (Davis 2.0 @ Jul 20 2009, 11:51 AM) *
(shakes head)


Pick up a copy of Rethinking Life and Death by Peter Singer. He wants you and your family to die. What part of this aren't you getting?
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