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Lord_Proprietor

Thin Red Line of Heroes
Unsung and underappreciated, the British Army deserves a country more worthy of its valor.



by Stuart Koehl
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Publ...16/602mhdmv.asp

06/06/2009 12:00:00 AM

Today marks the 65th anniversary of Operation Overlord, the Allied invasion of Normandy. Too often Americans tend to think of it as the American invasion of Normandy--witness the accidental oversight regarding the invitation of Queen Elizabeth II (the only current head of state who actually served in the military during World War II) to the Franco-American commemoration ceremony by Presidents Obama and Sarkozy, not to mention the absence of the British from recent films and television series about the invasion, such as Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers. Oh, of course, the Brits were featured in Cornelius Ryan's 1962 film The Longest Day, but the centerpiece of the film was the airborne assault on St. Mere Eglise, General Norman Cota clearing the way on Omaha Beach, and Teddy Roosevelt Jr. deciding to start the war from wherever they had landed on Utah Beach. As compared to that, Peter Lawford as Lord Lovat strolling into battle with his favorite shotgun and personal piper is almost a cameo appearance.

From all that, it is no surprise that most Americans do not know that there were more British soldiers than Americans on the beach that morning, and that all the Americans were under the command of a British general, Field Marshal Bernard L. Montgomery. The Americans had two beaches, the British had three (Sword, Gold and Juno--the latter formally assigned to the Canadians, but with more than half of the troops actually British). The Americans used two airborne divisions, but the British used their 6th Airborne Division (the Red Devils) to secure the left flank of the Allied beachhead, including a daredevil coup de main against a bridge over the Caen Canal, as recounted in The Longest Day as well as Stephen Ambrose's Pegasus Bridge (after the badge of the British Parachute Regiment). It was all done rather matter-of-factly, with a minimum of fuss and bother, and as a result, it doesn't get nearly as much attention as the near catastrophe of Omaha Beach or the dog's lunch that was the U.S. airborne operation.

Something similar is happening today: the British role in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is slowly being consigned to the memory hole. To listen to most American commentators on the wars, you would not even know the British are there. Indeed, we only hear about them when one is accidentally killed by U.S. fire, or when they are reducing their troop commitments (which makes it look like they are running away). Even conservative American commentators have had a somewhat condescending attitude towards the British forces, blaming them for the policies of the British government that, e.g., had them passively watch while Iranian Guards took a Zodiac full of British sailors hostage, or when it had them stand by while Shiite militias occupied their former base camp. But soldiers only follow the orders they are given by their civilian masters, and would we really want it any other way?

It is fortunate, therefore, that British veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan are finally putting their stories down on paper, and that these books are beginning to make their way into the American market. Two recent releases document with perception, wit, and humanity the unique experiences of two extraordinary British soldiers, which should put to rest any idea that the British army is becoming effete or less capable than it has been since Marlborough's day.

The first is Sniper One by Sgt. Dan Mills (ret.), a 20-year professional who served in Bosnia, Kosovo, and Northern Ireland before deploying to southern Iraq with 1st Battalion, Princess of Wales Royal Regiment (1/PWRR), in April 2004. As the title suggests, Mills was a sniper--the platoon sergeant of the battalion's sniper platoon, in fact. The war on terror has spawned quite a cottage industry of sniper memoirs of late, mostly American (Mike Tucker's Ronin: A Marine Scout/Sniper Platoon in Iraq; Jack Coughlin's Shooter: The Autobiography of the Top-Ranked Marine Sniper; and Joe LeBleu's Long Rifle: A Sniper's Story in Iraq and Afghanistan). Snipers tend to be selected for their intelligence and initiative; their training makes them skillful observers of their environment; the nature of their mission gives them plenty of time for introspection, and this perhaps makes them more inclined to write down their observations after the fighting is over. In the war on terror, snipers have really come into their own, because of the need to collect intelligence on a covert enemy and to be absolutely, surgically precise in the application of lethal force. Man for man, snipers tend to be the most deadly and the most cost effective soldiers on the battlefield, killing more bad guys with fewer bullets than anyone else--and killing far fewer civilians in the process.

Mills and 1/PWRR arrived in the southern Iraqi city of Al Amarah, a hotbed of Muqtadr al-Sadr's Mahdi Army, in April 2004. Soon after arriving, with only the briefest of familiarization lectures, he is sent out on patrol with several other snipers in an armored Land Rover, which happens to drive right by the regional headquarters of the Mahdi Army. Before he knows it, his patrol is ambushed, the Land Rover is hit by an RPG, and one of his men is seriously wounded. Fighting desperately, he and his men take cover in a nearby building, call for help, and hunker down to await rescue by a Quick Reaction Force--which only barely gets there in time.

From there, he and his company are assigned to guard a compound known as Cimic House, home to a civilian Provisional Reconstruction Team (PRT) that resents their presence and blames them for the hostile activities of the natives--like taking potshots at exposed personnel and dropping the occasional mortar bomb into the swimming pool. As the military situation in and around southern Iraq deteriorated through 2004, things got too hot for the PRT, which evacuated. But Mills and his company stayed on to maintain a presence and to keep a lid on the activities of the Mahdi Army. This involved constant patroling, the occasional snatch-and-grab operations, and very rarely (when the natives got too uppity), major punitive expeditions into the heart of the city to smack down the Mahdi Army. Without enough troops to garrison the city, without the ability to win the trust of the civilians or guarantee their safety, this was the best they could do. As expected, things went from bad to worse, and eventually Cimic House was totally cut off from other British units and besieged--for more than 23 days, the longest continuous action fought by any British unit since the Korean War.

The story of the seige is the framework for the book. Hunkered down under constant mortar and small arms fire, the British garrison has to put up with 120 temperatures, lack of water and sanitary facilities, increasingly bad food, constant boredom, and occasional terror. The Brits rise to the occasion with typical self-deprecating (and politically incorrect) good humor, and, when necessary, a stiff upper lip.

The company commander, tired of being unable to move about the compound because of unexploded mortar bombs, nonchalantly picks them up, carries them to the wall of the compound, and chucks them in the Tigris. Two of the company's computer specialists set up a fake account on an on-line dating service, invent a girl (complete with profile and voluptuous photo), and begin a cyber-relationship with another soldier in the unit, informing him of their deception only when the man is getting ready to go home on leave to meet the new love of his life.

Perhaps most telling for me was the story of PFC Johnson Beharry, driver of a Warrior infantry combat vehicle, which is hit by an RPG that seriously wounds him and several of the troops in the back. Despite his injuries and the damage to the vehicle, Beharry managed to keep the Warrior running long enough to get it and its occupants to the safety of a British base. For this action, Beharry was awarded the Victoria Cross, becoming the first living recipient of the medal in 36 years.

At various points the Shiite militias attempted to storm the compound, but always were driven back. Attempts to bring in supplies were occasions for desperate fighting. By the end of August, the Mahdi Army felt it had a real chance to overrun the British and take control of the entire city of Al Amarah, but this final, all-out attack was driven off by a combination of ferocious small arms fire and a timely assist from an AC-130 Spectre gunship. The attack broke the back of the insurgency in Amarah. The British were never driven out, remaining the legitimate authority in the city, allowing the brokering of a cease fire and the gradual pacification of the entire province.

To give an idea of the intensity of the fighting, during the 23-day seige, Cimic House was hit by 595 mortar rounds during 230 indvidual attacks; 57 RPG attacks, and 5 barrages by 107mm rockets. In addition, the company engaged in 25 separate firefights during sorties into the city (to collect intelligence and keep the enemy off guard) and repelled 86 different ground assaults on the compound itself. The defenders fired more than 33,000 rounds of rifle and machine gun ammunitions, in addition to shooting back with their own 51mm mortars. During this time, Mills and his sniper platoon were the key to the defense, accounting for some 40 percent of all the insurgents killed. It was a truly remarkable feat of arms, for which SGT Dan Mills was "Mentioned in Dispatches"; he deserved much more.

Yet few people know any of this. On the fronticepiece of the book, Mills quotes the battalion CO, LTC Matthew Maer, just before it returned to Britain:

When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this: All of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world.
The second book is Apache by Ed Macy. A 22-year veteran of the British Army Air Corps (AAC), Warrant Officer Macy was one of the first pilots trained to fly the AAC's latest and best attack helicopter, the Boeing/Agusta Westland WAH-64D Longbow Apache. Based on the U.S. Army's Apache Longbow, the British version is even more advanced, to the point that, for once, American pilots are envious. The downside is that its hellaciously expensive, so that the Brits can only afford to send them over to Afghanistan one squadron (12 helos) at a time.

Designed to fight hordes of Soviet tanks on the North German Plain, the Apache was something of an orphan in the war on terror, until British ground troops discovered that it could provide them with really, really close air support, with a variety of weapons from Hellfire missiles to 70mm unguided rockets to a 30mm Chain Gun cannon, all directed by some of the most powerful sensors and fire control systems ever put in the sky. Much of the weaponry is directed by a helmet-mounted sight, so that all the pilot or the weapon operator (Macy is one of the few aviators certified to fly in both seats of the Apache) can aim the weapons just by looking at the target and pulling the trigger. The WAH-64D also has fully digital communications, allowing aircraft to share sensor information from multiple sources, and to send text messages to each other. Ground-pounders came to look on the Apaches as their "Big Brothers" in the sky.

Macy and his compatriots operate out of an austere base carved out of the Afghan desert, and put up with the same combination of dust, heat, and boredom faced by Dan Mills--complicated by efforts to maintain one of the most complex aircraft in the world in an environment that is even more hostile to machinery than to human beings.

In the course of this, his second and final tour in Afghanistan (Macy was scheduled to retire, but was coaxed into going back just one more time, because there was such a shortage of trained Apache drivers--much to his wife's distress), he and his fellow aviators--including two women (as politically incorrect as any of the men)--do everything from scouting for Taliban to taking out terrorists setting up rocket launchrs in the dead of night from three kilometers away. Using the Apache's 240x Targeting and Designation System (TADS), Macy observes that the Apache pilot, like a sniper, is one of the few soldiers who gets to see his enemies up close and personal: "When he opens his mouth, you can count his fillings." This personal aspect of the war comes to haunt him, particularly after he uses his Apache's thermal imaging system to find a missing British SAS soldier: through the TADS, he can tell that the body has been stripped and mutilated by the Taliban. This sets the background for a later mission that is the climax of the book.

During a carefully planned campaign to break up Taliban command structures and drive them into a kill pocket in an uninhabited part of the country, a Royal Marine company attacks a walled Taliban stronghold known as Jugroom Fort. The attack goes badly awry, and the company is forced to retreat, but then realizes that one of its Marines is missing. Macy and his Apache flight (four helos) go searching for the missing man with their TADS. When the find him, they realize with horror that his body is glowing white hot against the cold ground--the man is still alive. The search mission becomes a rescue mission. Macy's unit prepares to give cover to the Marines when the company goes back to recover its man. But the company is in total disarray (its commander was later relieved for incompetence), and Macy is running out of fuel.

Unable to contact his base, he decides to rescue the man using the Apaches and a technique normally used to rescue aircrew from shot-down Apaches: he calls for volunteers and straps four Marines to the outside of his helicopter. Supported by the other two helicopters, Macy and his wingman will fly into Jugroom Fort--now held by a a large and very angry garrison armed with machine guns and RPGs--land next to the misssing Marine, strap him to the Apache, too, and then fly out. It sounds so simple!

Somehow or other, they actually do it--in the process, firing off more rockets, Hellfires and cannon rounds more quickly than on any mission in AAC history. Not a single man is injured, not one Apache is hit. The mission is a rousing success--except that the missing Marine is dead, hit in the head by a ricochet from somewhere after being wounded by friendly fire.

Returning to base, Macy and his companions are reamed out by the commander of the colonel commanding all AAC units in Afghanistan for a foolhardy stunt that could have cost the Army several $30 million helicopters--and all to recover a dead body! But the colonel soon realizes they did not know he was dead, that they were unable to contact him due to poor communications, and that they had no idea a rescue mission was being organized (even though it would have been much too late). From being on the verge of court martial, Macy and his friends find themselves being decorated--Macy with the Military Cross, others with the Distinguished Flying Cross. They deserved much more.

Macy receives his medal from the Queen herself, just prior to his retirement, in an episode Macy describes with pride and simple patriotism. Before that, he met with Prince Phillip, the Honorary Colonel of the AAC. Upon being introduced and telling the whole story, the prince could only grunt and mutter, "Are you all insane?" If they are, it's a glorious insanity, the kind that nations need when under attack.

Today, the British military is being subjected to draconian budget cuts, which will undoubtedly undermine its ability to execute the missions to which its government commits it. But the men and the tradition do not change, and the enemies of Britain are certain to agree with Napoleon, who once said, "The British infantry is the best in Europe. It is good there is so little of it."

When one looks at how the United Kingdom intends to pay for its fiscal mismanagement on the backs of the military, when one reads of fat, slovenly, self-satisfied British burgers and housewives complaining about the presence of injured British soldiers at public swimming pools, when you see wastral British youths denigrating returning veterans, one realizes that Britain is not worthy of the men she sends into battle.

But it is just as Kipling wrote in his immortal Tommy Atkins:

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,

O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.


Stuart Koehl is a regular contributor to THE WEEKLY STANDARD Online.
Lord_Proprietor
Obama and Brown join world leaders, veterans and
Tom Hanks to mark 65th anniversary of the D-Day landings


Daily Mail [UK], by Staff
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11...y-landings.html

6/6/2009 8:19:19 AM

Prince Charles and Gordon Brown have joined presidents Barack Obama and Nicolas Sarkozy to take part in commemorations of the 65th anniversary of the D-Day landings.The two men this morning attended a service of remembrance at the Bayeux Cathedral in honour of those who fought and died on June 6 1944, when some 150,000 allied troops landed in occupied France in an offensive which would end World War II in Europe.........


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11...y-landings.html
SpaceCowboy
What my dad did on D-Day-

QUOTE
MISSION NO. 60

ARROMANCHES BEACH, FRANCE

6 JUNE, 1944

INVASION DAY

At 0100, Colonel Luper entered the briefing room. The command, "Attention" was quickly followed by, "At ease". Col. Luper walked to the front of the briefing room and stood before the huge map of Europe. "Gentlemen", he said, "This is it." He continued, "This is what we have all been waiting for. I need not tell you how much depends on today's operation. Every resource in our possession must be put to use to make this mission Successful It must be successful."

The various briefing officers then took over and for more than thirty minutes, details of the mission were explained. Nothing was omitted; nothing was left to chance. Crews were also advised only boats heading towards the United Kingdom would pick up ditched crews.

Preparation for this day had been carried out with the utmost secrecy and no hint had reached the crewmen. Nevertheless, there had been many indications the long awaited day was at hand. Additional guards had been posted. Passes had been cancelled. Ground crews worked with a sense of urgency to service the ships. The lead crews were called for pre-bnefing at 1900 hours on 5 June. Thus, when crews assembled in the early morning hours of 6 June, few had to be told today was the day.

The 457th was assigned two defense positions on the Arromanches Beach that were to be bombed ten minutes before the first assault wave of the British Second Army hit the beaches. Twenty-four craft, the "First Force", would attack a defensive position consisting of three pill boxes and three shelters on the beach just north of Creully, while eighteen craft, the "Third Force", would attack a defended locality at Anselles-Sur-Mer, three miles west. Both targets were on the Affomanches Beach between Bayeux and Caen. Zero hour was 0725 hours.

The "First Force", led by Col. Luper with Lt. Charles D. Brannan as pilot, began taking off at 0430 hours, followed by the "Third Force", at 0450 hours, led by Major Fred A. Spencer, with Captain Russell M. Selwyn as pilot. Assembly was accomplished as dawn broke and the English Coast was crossed at 0632 hours. At mid-channel the cloud cover was ten-tenths. Looking out in front through a hole in the clouds and under the overcast, one could see some of the thousands of water craft on their way to the invasion.

The "First Force" dropped its bombs at 0700 hours. The "Third Force" dropped at 0710 hours. At the same time the primary targets were being shelled by warships and hit by dive bombers. The whole invasion coast was obscured by clouds and it was not until the formation approached the English Coast that the many invasion craft could be seen again. No enemy fighters or flak were encountered. All planes returned to the Base and crews stood by for a second mission, but none was ordered.

The crews finished the day's work hopeftil their efforts had aided a Great Crusade. The Eighth put up a total of 2512 bombers during the day. Only five planes were lost.


http://www.457thbombgroup.org/Narratives/MA60.HTML
Davis 2.0
My dad enlisted with the condition he got to fight Nazis in Europe. They sent him to the south Pacific.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE (Davis 2.0 @ Jun 6 2009, 08:06 AM) *
My dad enlisted with the condition he got to fight Nazis in Europe. They sent him to the south Pacific.

Never believe a recruiter laugh.gif
Davis 2.0
They had him sign his discharge papers. Wrong. He signed up for another year in Panama. I bet the second time left a mark. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


He volunteered for WW2 so he would have went anywhere. He preferred Europe. White women.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE (Davis 2.0 @ Jun 6 2009, 08:28 AM) *
They had him sign his discharge papers. Wrong. He signed up for another year in Panama. I bet the second time left a mark. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


He volunteered for WW2 so he would have went anywhere. He preferred Europe. White women.


Dad said the pickings were pretty good for the Yanks in England, which is was where he was based.

He said he was a little shocked at first with the ease of hook ups compared to the US, where he said you could get laid, but generally had to be "pretty serious" to get to that point. Not so much with the Brits, who had been at war for three years when he arrived there. Having had their lives at risk on a daily basis had clarified their thinking, establishing an attitude of take what pleasure you can today for tomorrow may be your last...

They had that right. Casualties in dad's unit ran 30%
Davis 2.0
The South Pacific was brutal as well. Dad said he and one other guy were the only two to make it in his group. On top of that dad worked KP a lot as punishment (he never got in trouble) so he got to identify the dead because he saw them every day.

SpaceCowboy
QUOTE (Davis 2.0 @ Jun 6 2009, 08:52 AM) *
The South Pacific was brutal as well. Dad said he and one other guy were the only two to make it in his group. On top of that dad worked KP a lot as punishment (he never got in trouble) so he got to identify the dead because he saw them every day.

Very brutal indeed.

Guadacanal, Tarawa, Midway... and others.
Russ Logan
My father recounted D-Day thusly (he was a B-24 radio operator and waist-gunner, based out of England on that tour):

"They really kept it secret. Oh, we all knew about the drills and such but the day, the actual embarkation was tightly held. I remember we had a mission laid on near the French and German border. I was looking down at the Channel when I spotted all these boats heading East, and called up to the pilot to take a look, and did he know what was happening...he said back that there sure were a lot of them, but that he-d heard nothing. When we landed we got the story. Pretty good security."
Brian_Lambchops
QUOTE (Davis 2.0 @ Jun 6 2009, 06:28 AM) *
They had him sign his discharge papers. Wrong. He signed up for another year in Panama. I bet the second time left a mark. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


He volunteered for WW2 so he would have went anywhere. He preferred Europe. White women.



Black folks got a lot of the sheitiest jobs. Aides to white folks, servants, kitchen workers. Ones that made it into the Marines like my uncle sprung for dress uniforms on their own just to look the part of a real Marine.
Lord_Proprietor
QUOTE (Brian_Lambchops @ Jun 6 2009, 06:42 PM) *
Black folks got a lot of the sheitiest jobs. Aides to white folks, servants, kitchen workers. Ones that made it into the Marines like my uncle sprung for dress uniforms on their own just to look the part of a real Marine.



Yes. And in so many cases in the South, for so long, the men were unable to get jobs outside and I think that is why so many black males began drinking. That condition caused lots of the hostilities which still exist. Our "origional sin" has caused many problems and, I'm afraid, will for years to come.
Lord_Proprietor
Townhall.com's

Washington Beat with Jillian Bandes,
National Political Reporter

June 9, 2009

DON'T ASK DON'T TELL DOESN'T GO AWAY

The Supreme Court refused to hear a case launched by Army Capt. James Pietrangelo II, and eleven other veterans, after they were banned from the military when he publicly came out as a gay man. The case challenged the military's current "don't ask don't tell" policy, but a lower court sided against Pietrangelo, leaving him unemployed, disappointed, and still gay..............
Lord_Proprietor
London Police accused of waterboarding suspects... ohmy.gif ohmy.gif ohmy.gif

Oliver North: ‘I’ve Been Waterboarded,

I Used to Waterboard People’


Cybercast News Service,
by Terence P. Jeffrey

6/9/2009 3:29:17 PM

Retired Marine Lt. Col. Oliver North, host of Fox News’ ''War Stories,'' told CNSNews.com that he both underwent waterboarding and subjected others to waterboarding as part of Survival, Evasion, Rescue, Escape (SERE) training in the U.S. military. North said he underwent waterboarding in his own SERE training, and then subjected others to waterboarding when he became a SERE school instructor.
Davis 2.0
QUOTE (Lord_Proprietor @ Jun 9 2009, 05:18 PM) *
London Police accused of waterboarding suspects... ohmy.gif ohmy.gif ohmy.gif

Oliver North: ‘I’ve Been Waterboarded,

I Used to Waterboard People’


Cybercast News Service,
by Terence P. Jeffrey

6/9/2009 3:29:17 PM

Retired Marine Lt. Col. Oliver North, host of Fox News’ ''War Stories,'' told CNSNews.com that he both underwent waterboarding and subjected others to waterboarding as part of Survival, Evasion, Rescue, Escape (SERE) training in the U.S. military. North said he underwent waterboarding in his own SERE training, and then subjected others to waterboarding when he became a SERE school instructor.



So he knows it's torture. If he says otherwise he's full of sheit and a liar.



Here's the quote:

QUOTE
North refutes President Obama’s argument that the waterboarding done by the Central Intelligence Agency in interrogating certain high-ranking al-Qaeda prisoners was torture, and applauds former Vice President Dick Cheney for defending the CIA’s use of the technique and its results.


And this piece of sheit actually claims to be a Christian. He's always been a member of the cult. Jim Jones got nothing on these amoral sons of beotches.
Davis 2.0
“I’ve been waterboarded, I used to waterboard people,” North said.

Asked if he went through SERE training, North said, “I did, and I was a SERE instructor. So, I’ve waterboarded people.”

“None of us thought it was torture,” said North. “We all knew it was very difficult, certainly, very uncomfortable.”

Jesse Ventura would claim otherwise. God I hate these pigs. I don't think there is any group of people in this country that quite rise to the level of criminality as do these Republicans and their faith-based evangelical army of idiots. They have absolutely no respect for the rule of law. Period.

“Right,” said North, when asked if he was personally waterboarded. “And I did it to others.”

North said he believed that the CIA’s enhanced interrogation techniques worked and applauded former Vice President Dick Cheney for defending the CIA’s use of them.

“Thank God, Dick Cheney has stood up to defend what they’ve done, and make it known to people that those enhanced interrogation techniques--that we now know what they are--were never regarded to be torture until this administration came into town,” said North.


Liar. That's it, plain and simple. Unfraggiunbelievable. You are an amoral torture loving mother who should be deeply ashamed and yet your proud of what you are.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (Lord_Proprietor @ Jun 9 2009, 03:18 PM) *
London Police accused of waterboarding suspects... ohmy.gif ohmy.gif ohmy.gif

Oliver North: 'I've Been Waterboarded,

I Used to Waterboard People'


Cybercast News Service,
by Terence P. Jeffrey

6/9/2009 3:29:17 PM

Retired Marine Lt. Col. Oliver North, host of Fox News' ''War Stories,'' told CNSNews.com that he both underwent waterboarding and subjected others to waterboarding as part of Survival, Evasion, Rescue, Escape (SERE) training in the U.S. military. North said he underwent waterboarding in his own SERE training, and then subjected others to waterboarding when he became a SERE school instructor.


Legally intent matters. If the military intended to torture it's own trainees it would rightfully be open to lawsuits and who knows what other manner of trouble. Why hasn't the military been scrutinized for waterboarding American citizens in the form of military training? Not even by the anti-military far left in Congress?
inyerface
are they trying to get info when they do it?
Davis 2.0
QUOTE (Arturo_Vandelay @ Jun 9 2009, 08:57 PM) *
Legally intent matters. If the military intended to torture it's own trainees it would rightfully be open to lawsuits and who knows what other manner of trouble. Why hasn't the military been scrutinized for waterboarding American citizens in the form of military training? Not even by the anti-military far left in Congress?



That is a lame defense. Pretty sad. The soldiers know it will end. They give them a taste of torture to prepare them for what the enemy may do. That's the truth whether you like it or not.

By the way, I'd say 183 waterboardings or even a dozen done for info extraction makes a hell of a difference.
Russ Logan
QUOTE (Arturo_Vandelay @ Jun 9 2009, 07:57 PM) *
Legally intent matters. If the military intended to torture it's own trainees it would rightfully be open to lawsuits and who knows what other manner of trouble. Why hasn't the military been scrutinized for waterboarding American citizens in the form of military training? Not even by the anti-military far left in Congress?

Actually, AV, it has been (although not for this specific training event). For over a decade, SERE training was deleted by Congressional action, from the Air Force Academy military training curriculum. It had been mandatory for every class in their 3rd class, or sophomore, summer. It was reinstated a few years ago in a narrower format and only for a select subset of each class, now running over two summer sessions. In both cases, the program was done in coordination with, and under the oversight of, the school at Fairchild AFB, WA, that all combat crews must attend if they weren't previously trained in a program such as that given by the Air Force Academy. I went through it, both as a student and an instructor, at the Academy.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (Russ Logan @ Jun 10 2009, 08:53 AM) *
Actually, AV, it has been (although not for this specific training event). For over a decade, SERE training was deleted by Congressional action, from the Air Force Academy military training curriculum. It had been mandatory for every class in their 3rd class, or sophomore, summer. It was reinstated a few years ago in a narrower format and only for a select subset of each class, now running over two summer sessions. In both cases, the program was done in coordination with, and under the oversight of, the school at Fairchild AFB, WA, that all combat crews must attend if they weren't previously trained in a program such as that given by the Air Force Academy. I went through it, both as a student and an instructor, at the Academy.


So waterboarding US military people went on during Dem admins? Very interesting.
Davis 2.0
QUOTE (Arturo_Vandelay @ Jun 10 2009, 11:43 AM) *
So waterboarding US military people went on during Dem admins? Very interesting.



You are intentionally being one stupid mofo. Of course we gave those soldiers a taste of torture. God, what part of that don't you get?

I know, you get it but refuse to acknowledge anything but the lame assed Republican talking points.

That is some weak sheit.
Spot
QUOTE (Davis 2.0 @ Jun 10 2009, 09:55 AM) *
You are intentionally being one stupid mofo. Of course we gave those soldiers a taste of torture.


Uh oh. Torture is illegal. It ought to be even more illegal to use on Americans.
Repub_Bub
QUOTE (Russ Logan @ Jun 10 2009, 08:53 AM) *
Actually, AV, it has been (although not for this specific training event). For over a decade, SERE training was deleted by Congressional action, from the Air Force Academy military training curriculum. It had been mandatory for every class in their 3rd class, or sophomore, summer. It was reinstated a few years ago in a narrower format and only for a select subset of each class, now running over two summer sessions. In both cases, the program was done in coordination with, and under the oversight of, the school at Fairchild AFB, WA, that all combat crews must attend if they weren't previously trained in a program such as that given by the Air Force Academy. I went through it, both as a student and an instructor, at the Academy.

Fairchild...what fun memories.
Wasn't waterboarded but spent some time in the box...
smile.gif
Davis 2.0
QUOTE (Spot @ Jun 10 2009, 12:04 PM) *
Uh oh. Torture is illegal. It ought to be even more illegal to use on Americans.



I agree. Using torture on US citizens is highly illegal yet that is what some Republicans are proposing. Krauthammer said a kidnap victim is enough for the POLICE to use waterboarding on a suspect.


The SERE argument put forth by torture defenders is idiotic. The program is designed to prepare special forces for what they might get from the enemy. It is brief, controlled and still elicits the very real sensation of drowning.
Lord_Proprietor
QUOTE (Spot @ Jun 10 2009, 01:04 PM) *
Uh oh. Torture is illegal. It ought to be even more illegal to use on Americans.



dry.gif Have you ever been in the military or any type of training and do you have a family to protect (kids, home, etc.), or are you OK with someone coming in and slaughtering them while you kneel and perhaps say a prayer for protection? I really don't think some of you guys know what is happening in the "world of terrorism" here and overseas.
Davis 2.0
Uh LP? that would be self-defense.


Once you have a suspect in custody that is no longer the case.

You folks don't appreciate how quickly your new policies can become normal operating procedure, do you? Or the massive damage you have done to this country and human rights worldwide not to mention setting new standards of how our own soldiers will be treated?

If you become as nasty as them then you may as well be them.
inyerface
but wrapped in the flag
gloryforixseal
Ok Cube...

Please show where I said he speaks for the Democratic Party. If you cant please dont put words into my post that I did not place there.

Also he is from the same board of Supervisors who voted to NOT have the USS Iowa on display in the SF harbor.

And also one of the ones who voted to ban military recruiting at schools.

If things like this have passed I would say he is not the minority.
BrooklynBill
Pentagon training course says engaging in First Amendment is terrorist activity

Steve Watson
Infowars.net [1]
Monday, June 15, 2009

Current Department of Defense anti-terrorism training course material states that the exercise of First Amendment rights in the U.S. constitutes terrorist activity.

The ACLU has written to the DoD regarding its Antiterrorism and Force Protection Annual Refresher Training Course, which advises personnel that political protest amounts to “low-level terrorism”.

“It has come to our attention that the Department of Defense’s Annual Level I Antiterrorism (AT) Training for 2009 misinforms Department of Defense (DoD) personnel that certain First Amendment-protected activity may amount to “low level terrorism” The ACLU writes.

“We are writing to ask that you take immediate steps to remedy this situation.” the letter to acting Under-Secretary Gail McGinn states.

A PDF [2] of the ACLU’s letter also contains print outs of the relevant sections of the course material.

The training introduction reads:

“Anti-terrorism (AT) and Force Protection (FP) are two facets of the Department of Defense (DoD) Mission Assurance Program. It is DoD policy, as found in DoD I 2000.16, that the DoD Components and the DoD elements and personnel shall be protected from terrorist acts through a high priority, comprehensive, AT program. The DoD’s AT program shall be all encompassing using an integrated systems approach.”

The first question of the Terrorism Threat Factors, “Knowledge Check 1″ section reads:

Which of the following is an example of low-level terrorism activity?

Select the correct answer and then click Check Your Answer.

  • Attacking the Pentagon
  • IEDs
  • Hate crimes against racial groups
  • Protests
In order to proceed, users must give the “correct” answer as “Protests”.

According to the document, all DoD personnel are required to complete the course on a yearly basis.

The ACLU points out that although in and of itself the classification of protest as terrorism is deeply disturbing, it is even more alarming when viewed in the context of the Pentagon’s long term efforts to crack down on organized dissent. [4]

The surveillance and pre-emptive arrest of protesters [5], on charges of “domestic terrorism”, at last year’s RNC by the FBI is also cited by the ACLU.

Other precedents that the ACLU neglected to mention in it’s letter include, most recently, the fact that the FBI were spying on “Tea Party” protesters [6] nationwide.

One week prior to those revelations, we also reported that the Maryland National Guard was put on alert [7] in anticipation of the nationwide protests, while a Homeland Security spokesman refused to deny that protesters would be under surveillance from the DHS.

The Maryland National Guard issued a Force Protection Advisory on April 11 which warned the National Guard to be on alert during the Tea Party protests because Guardsmen and Guard facilities might become “targets of opportunity.” The contact point for the document was listed as the Antiterrorism Program Coordinator.

The advisory was almost exactly the same as a United States Army Reserve Command Force Protection Advisory that was issued last November before the nationwide End the Fed protests [8], warning that protesters were congregating across the country to demonstrate against the private Federal Reserve.

Over the last few years we have seen countless examples of security assessment reports [9] from the likes of the Department of Defense, the Department of Homeland Security and the FBI, as well as police training manuals, which state that anti-war protesters, gun owners, veterans, Ron Paul supporters and those who merely cite the Constitution should be equated with extremists.

The continued surveillance of protesters, in addition to the ongoing agenda to equate dissent with terrorism, highlights the fact that the architecture of the police state, which was massively expanded under George W. Bush, has not been dismantled or relaxed by an Obama administration that promised “change,”. If anything, it has only grown bigger.

The Obama administration’s announcement that the illegal warrantless surveillance of American citizens, a program initiated under Bush, will continue and in fact intensify under Obama [10], is another shining example of the fact that - no matter who is in power and no matter the political persuasion of those being watched - all Americans who have the temerity to exercise constitutional rights are considered dangerous and worthy of being targeted by the federal government with surveillance tools supposedly introduced to fight terrorists.

Article printed from Alex Jones’ Prison Planet.com: http://www.prisonplanet.com

URL to article: http://www.prisonplanet.com/dod-training-manual-describes-protest-as-low-level-terrorism.html

URLs in this post:

[1] Infowars.net: http://www.infowars.net/index.html

[2] PDF: http://www.aclu.org/images/general/asset_upload_file89_39820.pdf

[3] Image: http://prisonplanet.tv/signup.html

[4] long term efforts to crack down on organized dissent.: http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/december2005/141205pentagonspies.htm

[5] surveillance and pre-emptive arrest of protesters: http://infowars.net/articles/September2008/010908Raids.htm

[6] spying on “Tea Party” protesters: http://www.prisonplanet.com/source-fbi-spied-on-tea-party-protesters-nationwide.html

[7] Maryland National Guard was put on alert: http://www.prisonplanet.com/national-guard-on-alert-for-tea-party-protests.html

[8] before the nationwide End the Fed protests: http://www.prisonplanet.com/army-dispatched-in-response-to-end-the-fed-protests.html

[9] countless examples of security assessment reports: http://www.prisonplanet.com/police-trained-nationwide-that-informed-americans-are-domestic-terrorists.html

[10] continue and in fact intensify under Obama: http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/04/obama-doj-worse-than-bush

Russ Logan
QUOTE (BrooklynBill @ Jun 15 2009, 03:52 PM) *
Pentagon training course says engaging in First Amendment is terrorist activity

Wish I had the full course available but I did follow the link to the ACLU ltr and "excerpts" and I think that this may be a bit of a red herring on the ACLU's part. In the course intro page they excerpted the first paragraph speaks of protecting DoD Components and personnel. The second paragraph notes the requirement for all personnel travelling overseas to get the mandatory country brief which outlines specific terrorist activities and threats for the country (s) to be visited within 90-days of travel. Now putting those two things together, I think the training may actually be directed at overseas stations and the personnel stationed there and living there, or potentially travelling there. Given the anti-American sentiment in many areas of the world and the record of so many "peaceful" protests going violent oversaeas, this may be fairly prudent, and since it is overseas, the First Amendment is not operable on another country's soil and citizenry.

Just a surmise on my part.

And BTW as to the question they took umbrage at - unless you have taken the actual training up to that point, this "Knowledge Check" question is wholly out of context. The course will have gone over the definition and applicability of that answer prior. These questions are there, and interspersed throughout the entire trainng session, to ensure one doesn't just mouse-click their way to the end of the online training, aka "electronic pencil whipping."
BrooklynBill
QUOTE (Russ Logan @ Jun 15 2009, 10:27 PM) *
Wish I had the full course available but I did follow the link to the ACLU ltr and "excerpts" and I think that this may be a bit of a red herring on the ACLU's part. In the course intro page they excerpted the first paragraph speaks of protecting DoD Components and personnel. The second paragraph notes the requirement for all personnel travelling overseas to get the mandatory country brief which outlines specific terrorist activities and threats for the country (s) to be visited within 90-days of travel. Now putting those two things together, I think the training may actually be directed at overseas stations and the personnel stationed there and living there, or potentially travelling there. Given the anti-American sentiment in many areas of the world and the record of so many "peaceful" protests going violent oversaeas, this may be fairly prudent, and since it is overseas, the First Amendment is not operable on another country's soil and citizenry.

Just a surmise on my part.

And BTW as to the question they took umbrage at - unless you have taken the actual training up to that point, this "Knowledge Check" question is wholly out of context. The course will have gone over the definition and applicability of that answer prior. These questions are there, and interspersed throughout the entire trainng session, to ensure one doesn't just mouse-click their way to the end of the online training, aka "electronic pencil whipping."


QUOTE
Knowledge Check 1

Which of the following is an example of low level terrorism activity? Select the correct answer and then click Check Your Answer.

  • Attacking the Pentagon
  • IEDs
  • Hate crimes against racial groups
  • Protests
Russ,

I read over the same material.

This Q&A is retarded, it clearly tries to associate protests with "low-level terrorism".

It doesn't matter if you're in DC or Seoul, the underlying message is the same.
Russ Logan
QUOTE (BrooklynBill @ Jun 15 2009, 04:41 PM) *
[/list]Russ,

I read over the same material.

This Q&A is retarded, it clearly tries to associate protests with "low-level terrorism".

It doesn't matter if you're in DC or Seoul, the underlying message is the same.

Oh, it does matter. But without having taken such online training courses (I have it's a yearly requirement in the circles I work), I would agree with you. However, without knowing exactly if the course is talking about overseas travel and the opportunities for the traveller on US government business to be comprised or placed in dangerous situations, and how they must act to protect both themselves, their knowledge and the US installations/units to which they travel - the question is totally out of its context. Personally I do not have any familiarity with this particular training session or test question, as I do not recognize them from past training. However, as I noted before, the intro the ACLU quoted leads me to believe the context of this training is for the government traveller who must travel to overseas locations with less than stable governments and populations, and therefore must remain on-guard for situations that could lead an unsafe situation for them or the units to which they are seconded - think the streets of Teheran yesterday, or certain sections of Paris last year, were all that healthy for an American during the protests against the governments that ended up in violence and and property destruction? In that chaos what opportunities exist for a snatch and grab?
Davis 2.0
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif You people are the biggest god damned hypocrites I've ever seen. Too bad the outrage-o-meter was broken when you went after that 12 year old boys who was the poster child for the childrens medical plan SCHIPS. You moral giants even put all the private information you could find, even the kid's address, on the net for every freak to see. So you'll excuse me if I doubt your sincerity.



Letterman flatly apologizes to Palin for 'flawed' joke


David Letterman, who last week found himself the target of Republican ire for his joke about Alaska Governor Sarah Palin's 18-year-old daughter Bristol, has apologized for giving some the impression that his joke was directed at the governor's 14-year-old daughter Willow.

Here's his full comments, provided by CBS (h/t TVWeek):

"All right, here - I've been thinking about this situation with Governor Palin and her family now for about a week - it was a week ago tonight, and maybe you know about it, maybe you don't know about it. But there was a joke that I told, and I thought I was telling it about the older daughter being at Yankee Stadium. And it was kind of a coarse joke. There's no getting around it, but I never thought it was anybody other than the older daughter, and before the show, I checked to make sure in fact that she is of legal age, 18. Yeah. But the joke really, in and of itself, can't be defended. The next day, people are outraged. They're angry at me because they said, 'How could you make a lousy joke like that about the 14-year-old girl who was at the ball game?' And I had, honestly, no idea that the 14-year-old girl, I had no idea that anybody was at the ball game except the Governor and I was told at the time she was there with Rudy Giuliani...And I really should have made the joke about Rudy..." (audience applauds) "But I didn't, and now people are getting angry and they're saying, 'Well, how can you say something like that about a 14-year-old girl, and does that make you feel good to make those horrible jokes about a kid who's completely innocent, minding her own business,' and, turns out, she was at the ball game. I had no idea she was there. So she's now at the ball game and people think that I made the joke about her. And, but still, I'm wondering, 'Well, what can I do to help people understand that I would never make a joke like this?' I've never made jokes like this as long as we've been on the air, 30 long years, and you can't really be doing jokes like that. And I understand, of course, why people are upset. I would be upset myself.

"And then I was watching the Jim Lehrer 'Newshour' - this commentator, the columnist Mark Shields, was talking about how I had made this indefensible joke about the 14-year-old girl, and I thought, 'Oh, boy, now I'm beginning to understand what the problem is here. It's the perception rather than the intent.' It doesn't make any difference what my intent was, it's the perception. And, as they say about jokes, if you have to explain the joke, it's not a very good joke. And I'm certainly - " (audience applause) "- thank you. Well, my responsibility - I take full blame for that. I told a bad joke. I told a joke that was beyond flawed, and my intent is completely meaningless compared to the perception. And since it was a joke I told, I feel that I need to do the right thing here and apologize for having told that joke. It's not your fault that it was misunderstood, it's my fault. That it was misunderstood." (audience applauds) "Thank you. So I would like to apologize, especially to the two daughters involved, Bristol and Willow, and also to the Governor and her family and everybody else who was outraged by the joke. I'm sorry about it and I'll try to do better in the future. Thank you very much."

For the whole background on the Letterman-Palin feud, including video, see our prior coverage.

**Update: In spite of Letterman's apology, conservatives have launched a Web site calling for his job. The site, FireDavidLetterman.com, appears to mimic the layout of The Drudge Report. The group responsible is planning to protest outside New York's Ed Sullivan Theater on Tuesday afternoon.

A Palin spokesperson added: "The Palins have no intention of providing a ratings boost for David Letterman by appearing on his show. Plus, it would be wise to keep Willow away from David Letterman."

Keep Willow away from David Letterman? Really? Wow.

http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/06/letterman...or-flawed-joke/
SpaceCowboy
It would be wise to keep Sarah away from Letterman's show.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Jun 16 2009, 06:27 AM) *
It would be wise to keep Sarah away from Letterman's show.


A long way away, since I'm pretty sure she's good with a rifle.
inyerface
but not with a shotgun

Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (inyerface @ Jun 16 2009, 09:13 AM) *
but not with a shotgun



Only one way to find out.....
inyerface
do tell
Innocent

QUOTE
Iraq veteran Forrest Fogarty sailed through recruitment despite his neo-Nazi tattoos.



Neo-Nazis are in the Army now

Why the U.S. military is ignoring its own regulations and permitting white supremacists to join its ranks.

QUOTE
Army regulations prohibit soldiers from participating in racist groups, and recruiters are instructed to keep an eye out for suspicious tattoos. Before signing on the dotted line, enlistees are required to explain any tattoos. At a Tampa recruitment office, though, Fogarty sailed right through the signup process. "They just told me to write an explanation of each tattoo, and I made up some stuff, and that was that," he says. Soon he was posted to Fort Stewart in Georgia, where he became part of the 3rd Infantry Division.

Fogarty's ex-girlfriend, intent on destroying his new military career, sent a dossier of photographs to Fort Stewart. The photos showed Fogarty attending white supremacist rallies and performing with his band, Attack. "They hauled me before some sort of committee and showed me the pictures," Fogarty says. "I just denied them and said my girlfriend was a spiteful bitch." He adds: "They knew what I was about. But they let it go because I'm a great soldier."

In 2003, Fogarty was sent to Iraq. For two years he served in the military police, escorting officers, including generals, around the hostile country. He says he was granted top-secret clearance and access to battle plans. Fogarty speaks with regret that he "never had any kill counts." But he says his time in Iraq increased his racist resolve.

"I hate Arabs more than anybody, for the simple fact I've served over there and seen how they live," he tells me. "They're just a backward people. Them and the Jews are just disgusting people as far as I'm concerned. Their customs, everything to do with the Middle East, is just repugnant to me."

Since the launch of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the U.S. military has struggled to recruit and reenlist troops. As the conflicts have dragged on, the military has loosened regulations, issuing "moral waivers" in many cases, allowing even those with criminal records to join up. Veterans suffering post-traumatic stress disorder have been ordered back to the Middle East for second and third tours of duty.

The lax regulations have also opened the military's doors to neo-Nazis, white supremacists and gang members — with drastic consequences. Some neo-Nazis have been charged with crimes inside the military, and others have been linked to recruitment efforts for the white right. A recent Department of Homeland Security report, "Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment," stated: "The willingness of a small percentage of military personnel to join extremist groups during the 1990s because they were disgruntled, disillusioned, or suffering from the psychological effects of war is being replicated today." Many white supremacists join the Army to secure training for, as they see it, a future domestic race war. Others claim to be shooting Iraqis not to pursue the military's strategic goals but because killing "hajjis" is their duty as white militants.

Soldiers' associations with extremist groups, and their racist actions, contravene a host of military statutes instituted in the past three decades. But during the "war on terror," U.S. armed forces have turned a blind eye on their own regulations. A 2005 Department of Defense report states, "Effectively, the military has a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy pertaining to extremism. If individuals can perform satisfactorily, without making their extremist opinions overt … they are likely to be able to complete their contracts."

Carter F. Smith is a former military investigator who worked with the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command from 2004 to 2006, when he helped to root out gang violence in troops. "When you need more soldiers, you lower the standards, whether you say so or not," he says. "The increase in gangs and extremists is an indicator of this." Military investigators may be concerned about white supremacists, he says. "But they have a war to fight, and they don't have incentive to slow down."

Tom Metzger is the former grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and current leader of the White Aryan Resistance. He tells me the military has never been more tolerant of racial extremists. "Now they are letting everybody in," he says.


Davis 2.0
Well isn't that wonderful? Neo-nazis and white supremacists.


QUOTE
"I hate Arabs more than anybody, for the simple fact I've served over there and seen how they live," he tells me. "They're just a backward people. Them and the Jews are just disgusting people as far as I'm concerned. Their customs, everything to do with the Middle East, is just repugnant to me."


Well Adolph, your army career is over. Or it should be.
inyerface
next they came for me
Innocent
QUOTE (Davis 2.0 @ Jun 17 2009, 10:38 PM) *
Well isn't that wonderful? Neo-nazis and white supremacists.


It does give a greater context to the DHS report.
Lord_Proprietor
QUOTE (Russ Logan @ Jun 15 2009, 11:14 PM) *
Oh, it does matter. But without having taken such online training courses (I have it's a yearly requirement in the circles I work), I would agree with you. However, without knowing exactly if the course is talking about overseas travel and the opportunities for the traveller on US government business to be comprised or placed in dangerous situations, and how they must act to protect both themselves, their knowledge and the US installations/units to which they travel - the question is totally out of its context. Personally I do not have any familiarity with this particular training session or test question, as I do not recognize them from past training. However, as I noted before, the intro the ACLU quoted leads me to believe the context of this training is for the government traveller who must travel to overseas locations with less than stable governments and populations, and therefore must remain on-guard for situations that could lead an unsafe situation for them or the units to which they are seconded - think the streets of Teheran yesterday, or certain sections of Paris last year, were all that healthy for an American during the protests against the governments that ended up in violence and and property destruction? In that chaos what opportunities exist for a snatch and grab?


As a civilian employed by the DOD I worked in foreign countires several times and never remember this type orientation! We were given much/many written info and lectures, but not this.
Russ Logan
QUOTE (Lord_Proprietor @ Jun 20 2009, 06:37 AM) *
As a civilian employed by the DOD I worked in foreign countires several times and never remember this type orientation! We were given much/many written info and lectures, but not this.

They've gone to computer-based training. It prevents sleeping through the sessions or simply skipping to the end of a self-paced hardcopy brief, taking the test, and getting on with your day (pencil-whipping) without actually reading the material. And it saves on instructor training. They intersperse checkpoint questions based upon the preceeding unit that you must answer before going on to the next unit. Whether you get the answer right or wrong they use the opportunity to help reinforce the desired learning outcomes.

[Added]
One advantage of this is that for some of the CBT courses you can take them a unit at a time over several hours or days, to make the training time fit your schedule - the courses actually being about an hour to an hour-and-a-half long in some instances.
SpaceCowboy
Sneaky bastiges. laugh.gif
Lord_Proprietor
QUOTE (Russ Logan @ Jun 20 2009, 12:26 PM) *
They've gone to computer-based training. It prevents sleeping through the sessions or simply skipping to the end of a self-paced hardcopy brief, taking the test, and getting on with your day (pencil-whipping) without actually reading the material. And it saves on instructor training. They intersperse checkpoint questions based upon the preceeding unit that you must answer before going on to the next unit. Whether you get the answer right or wrong they use the opportunity to help reinforce the desired learning outcomes.

[Added]
One advantage of this is that for some of the CBT courses you can take them a unit at a time over several hours or days, to make the training time fit your schedule - the courses actually being about an hour to an hour-and-a-half long in some instances.


Outcome Based Ed. ?

QUOTE
"Start by developing a clear picture of what learners should ultimately be able to do successfully at the end of a significant educational experience (i.e., the outcome). Then base (i.e., develop) the curriculum, instruction, assessment, and reporting (i.e., education) directly on that clear picture. This is a simple matter of clearly defining what one wants learners to be able to do (the end) before the beginning, teaching them how to accomplish that end, and then assessing and documenting the end they were to achieve in the first place." Notice the fundamental cause - and - effect logic of this model: Education (the means) is based on the outcome (the end), not the other way around.
Davis 2.0
I attended the Performance Evaluated Training System in my carpenter/millwright apprenticeship. Unfortunately it was called PETS.
Brian_Lambchops
Akin to Special High Intensity Training?
Lord_Proprietor
QUOTE (Brian_Lambchops @ Jun 20 2009, 02:38 PM) *
Akin to Special High Intensity Training?

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif Hadn't heard of that one!
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