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SpaceCowboy
QUOTE
Sneak And Peek
April 27, 2009: A British Trafalgar class nuclear attack sub (SSN), preparing to head for a tour of duty in the Persian Gulf, honed its navigation and intelligence skills by maneuvering underwater until it was nearly stationary, and only a few meters (10-15 feet) below the keel of a Type 23 frigate. These frigates displace 4,200 tons and have a draft of 7.3 meters (24 feet.) That puts the 5,200 ton SSN about 12 meters (37 feet) beneath the surface, with its sensors checking out the bottom of the frigate. In this way, subs can collect useful information on how enemy ships are designed, built and maintained. Unlike the Americans, the British are more willing to discuss what their nuclear subs are up to, so more details of training exercises are let out.


http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/art...s/20090427.aspx

I have been wondering about the recent collisions between submarines and commercial ships in the straits of Hormuz.

I've suspected that our subs are shadowing tankers as they pass though the straits in order to evade detection by Iranian listening posts.
Davis 2.0
Sounds plausible.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Apr 30 2009, 08:49 AM) *
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/art...s/20090427.aspx

I have been wondering about the recent collisions between submarines and commercial ships in the straits of Hormuz.

I've suspected that our subs are shadowing tankers as they pass though the straits in order to evade detection by Iranian listening posts.


Subs are always playing games to test awareness. A bump here and there is probably good for sticking a scare into the Iranians.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE (Arturo_Vandelay @ Apr 30 2009, 01:55 PM) *
Subs are always playing games to test awareness. A bump here and there is probably good for sticking a scare into the Iranians.

I understand that the Iranians have a few subs of their own. I've read of information/speculation that the US maintains an attack sub just off the Iranian naval base that tracks the Iranian subs as they enter the gulf. This might also keep their subs bottled up in port in the event of a conflict.

I imagine that we also have unmanned undersea listening posts as well.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ Apr 30 2009, 12:12 PM) *
I understand that the Iranians have a few subs of their own. I've read of information/speculation that the US maintains an attack sub just off the Iranian naval base that tracks the Iranian subs as they enter the gulf. This might also keep their subs bottled up in port in the event of a conflict.

I imagine that we also have unmanned undersea listening posts as well.


Our listening ability is probably unequaled, but the Israelis are around as well. I'd hate to be Iran in a war.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE (Arturo_Vandelay @ Apr 30 2009, 02:23 PM) *
Our listening ability is probably unequaled, but the Israelis are around as well. I'd hate to be Iran in a war.

Well, yes.

I would sure hate to be anywhere near their ballistic missile installations, for example. The list of preemptive targets in Iran is a long one, in the event of a real war.
Lord_Proprietor
U.S. officials believe
Taliban, not airstrikes
caused civilian deaths



Stars and Stripes.
Friday, May 8, 2009
http://www.stripes.com/

Civilian casualties in Farah province earlier this week were more likely the work of Taliban killers who orchestrated a series of events leading up to U.S. bombings, rather than the bombs themselves, U.S. military authorities said Thursday.

This will cause some disappoint among liberals!
inyerface
yeah we have a great track record with truth

ask the Tillmans



nothing but bullshit from the pentagon



sucking us dry
Lord_Proprietor
Column: Battle brews over 1st Amendment on the battlefield

Posted February 19th, 2009

Stars and Stripes
http://blogs.stripes.com/blogs/right-know/...ent-battlefield
by Mark Prendergast in The Right to Know

With George W. Bush gone from the White House, "now is the time to renegotiate the rules of engagement between the military and the media," the head of The Associated Press recently declared. "Now is the time to insist that the First Amendment does apply to the battlefield."

The AP executive, CEO Tom Curley, argues that the military has "weaponized information" and that President Barack Obama must rein in the Pentagon. By way of example, Curley cites a recent AP report on a $4.7 billion effort to influence opinion "in favor of U.S. military endeavors," such as the intensifying conflict in Afghanistan.

"Now is the time to resist the propaganda the Pentagon produces and live up to our obligation to question authority and thereby protect our democracy," he said. "Now is the time for the media to sit down with the military and determine a workable set of ground rules that serve the American people."

Curley has a distinguished record as an advocate of news media and First Amendment causes. And as head of the world’s largest newsgathering operation, his words and sentiments will carry weight in any renewed discussions of press-military relations and will no doubt inform individual journalists’ confrontations with balky military officials.

Indeed, his speech, given Feb. 6 at the University of Kansas and reported in an AP dispatch carried by Stars and Stripes, is a call to arms, so to speak, for journalists to prevail upon Obama and the military to loosen the rules governing access and "to insist that the First Amendment does apply to the battlefield."

Curley’s passion is partly fueled by the two-year detention of Bilal Hussein, an Iraqi AP photographer seized by Marines near Ramadi in 2006.

"The United States military stripped him of the right to habeas corpus, the right to freedom of expression, freedom of association and the right to due process," Curley said. "And when the military was forced finally to produce the evidence against him in a court of law, an Iraqi judicial panel found it without merit."

Although Curley cited more than a century of abrasive military-press history, he blamed Bush and former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld for a military culture that has made "distinguishing fact from propaganda" increasingly difficult and the adoption of "al-Qaida’s tactics" permissible in the struggle for hearts and minds.

Journalists, he said, are "the only force out there to keep the government in check and to hold it accountable."

In his speech, Curley cited the new Defense Media Activity umbrella group as emblematic of a looming Pentagon propaganda arsenal, an example I note because Stars and Stripes has been dragged — organizationally — into the DMA tent.

As ombudsman of Stars and Stripes (which incidentally publishes and posts reams of AP copy), I am charged by Congress with reporting any deviation from the mandate that Stripes operate with First Amendment freedoms, free of censorship or propaganda, and that it abide by mainstream journalism standards in deciding what to report — or not — and how to present the news it gathers.

In one month on the job, I have seen no evidence that Stars and Stripes journalists are doing anything other than meeting those standards in their reporting, writing, editing and photography.

Moreover, a number have asserted that despite the paper’s government affiliation, Stripes reporters often face the same obstacles in gaining access to military news as their counterparts in commercial media — and the same repercussions for critical reporting.

It should be heartening to Stripes staffers, readers, taxpayers and even skeptics that no less a Pentagon critic than Thomas E. Ricks, the Pulitzer Prize-winning former defense reporter for the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal, wrote on his Foreign Policy blog Jan. 6 that Stars and Stripes "nowadays provides the best coverage of U.S. military operations in Iraq."

But much can change in the 35 months left in my term, and I will keep my mind, and eyes, open.

Still, before Curley’s call for renewed talks on military-press rules is acted upon, Stripes readers, who have an indisputable stake in the outcome, ought to be heard from.

So I ask you to speak up — with letters to the editor, which will be published in Stars and Stripes, on its Web site, or both, and in comments you can post online at my blog.

I just ask that you first read Curley’s speech in full and look over the related links I provide online, and keep your remarks on point, not the players.

This is an important issue, to you as the people who wear the uniform in harm’s way, to the journalists who wear no uniform but often share the same risks and hardships, and to those whose welfare all purport to serve.
inyerface
maybe the pentagon will allow it

the public certainly has no say AT ALL
Nomarchy
The First Amendment does not apply on the battlefield or any other workplace.

Any person, on the job, who on 'company time' speaks or writes in ways that his/her employer reasonably finds contrary to his/her/its business interests (e.g. trying to chat up possible dates among customers, talking trash about the employer, seeking to proselytize patrons whilst working for and at a nudie bar, etc) can and will be terminated.
Lord_Proprietor
QUOTE (Nomarchy @ May 8 2009, 12:08 PM) *
The First Amendment does not apply on the battlefield or any other workplace.

Any person, on the job, who on 'company time' speaks or writes in ways that his/her employer reasonably finds contrary to his/her/its business interests (e.g. trying to chat up possible dates among customers, talking trash about the employer, seeking to proselytize patrons whilst working for and at a nudie bar, etc) can and will be terminated.



QUOTE
Stars and Stripes
http://blogs.stripes.com/blogs/right-know/...ent-battlefield
by Mark Prendergast in The Right to Know

With George W. Bush gone from the White House, "now is the time to renegotiate the rules of engagement between the military and the media," the head of The Associated Press recently declared . "Now is the time to insist that the First Amendment does apply to the battlefield."


Perhaps the AP needs to first consider whether they have a right to the battlefield. Is it not the prerogative of the military to determine who is allowed in combat with their troops and what is best for the mission? unsure.gif
Lord_Proprietor
Obama aide: Seems no one knows bin Laden's status
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090510/ap_on_...in_laden_s_fate

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama's national security adviser says he isn't sure if Osama bin Laden is dead or alive.

Retired Marine Gen. James Jones said Sunday that U.S. intelligence agencies are looking at data and watching for confirmed appearances by the al-Qaida leader.

Jones said, "The truth is, I don't think anybody knows."

White House spokesman Robert Gibbs last week said Obama wants bin Laden brought to justice, but that the U.S. is focused on more than just one person.

Jones spoke on ABC's "This Week."


I suspect they can find his remains if they can roll away enough of the stones piled up by the bombings in the rugged mountains at Tora Bora in 2001.

I remember the public statement of his son at that time. "You will never find my father, dead or alive". The son knew what had happened and just gave the statement for all to ponder. Smart of the son, IMO; kept it so any manipulation they wanted to use was possible and they have played it well.
Davis 2.0


QUOTE
I suspect they can find his remains if they can roll away enough of the stones piled up by the bombings in the rugged mountains at Tora Bora in 2001.

I remember the public statement of his son at that time. "You will never find my father, dead or alive". The son knew what had happened and just gave the statement for all to ponder. Smart of the son, IMO; kept it so any manipulation they wanted to use was possible and they have played it well.




I suspect you and they don't know what you're talking about. You just spin it whatever way you want.
Lord_Proprietor
QUOTE (Davis 2.0 @ May 10 2009, 11:22 AM) *
I suspect you and they don't know what you're talking about. You just spin it whatever way you want.


I've been saying the same since 2001!
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE (Lord_Proprietor @ May 10 2009, 02:23 PM) *
I've been saying the same since 2001!

Yes, I'll vouch that you have, not that any of us knows.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (SpaceCowboy @ May 10 2009, 12:34 PM) *
Yes, I'll vouch that you have, not that any of us knows.


Nobody knows, but I've been betting dead a long time. They could have just gotten a voice like his to perpetuate the myth. Probably some short guy with no record so nobody is looking for him. Still no verified appearance for years.
inyerface
just like any good boogyman
Arturo_Vandelay
Unlike the boogyman we know he did exist and caused a lot of trouble. Dems are the ones that wanted to keep him alive, at least in spirit. Now they have conveniently forgotten him.
inyerface
FBI has no 911 evidence on him

bushie played the public like a trophy trout with him as bait

didn't know bushie was a dem

thanks for the heads up
Innocent
QUOTE (Lord_Proprietor @ May 10 2009, 11:14 AM) *
Obama aide: Seems no one knows bin Laden's status
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090510/ap_on_...in_laden_s_fate

I suspect they can find his remains if they can roll away enough of the stones piled up by the bombings in the rugged mountains at Tora Bora in 2001.


That seems improbable. Haven't we had several taped messages referencing current events since then?
Innocent
QUOTE (Arturo_Vandelay @ May 10 2009, 04:35 PM) *
Unlike the boogyman we know he did exist and caused a lot of trouble. Dems are the ones that wanted to keep him alive, at least in spirit. Now they have conveniently forgotten him.


blink.gif That's just nuts. I haven't forgotten him.

rolleyes.gif
Innocent
Video: "Currahee"

QUOTE
Lt. Brian Brennan was severely wounded in Iraq and faced unbeatable odds but, as David Martin reports, he made a remarkable recovery with a little help from a special Cherokee word.


Touching story.

smile.gif
Innocent
QUOTE (Lord_Proprietor @ May 10 2009, 11:14 AM) *
I suspect they can find his remains if they can roll away enough of the stones piled up by the bombings in the rugged mountains at Tora Bora in 2001.


Petraeus: Al Qaeda No Longer Operating in Afghanistan

QUOTE
Still, he said he believes [O]sama bin Laden and his No. 2 Ayman al-Zawahiri remain in charge of the terrorist network.

"They surface periodically. We see communications that they send out," Petraeus said
.

Though Petraeus said nobody can provide an accurate location for either terrorist, he said Al Qaeda senior leadership clearly is now rooted in the border region of western Pakistan.

"There's no question that Al Qaeda's senior leadership has been there and has been in operation for years," Petraeus said.


Gen. Petraeus disagrees.
Lord_Proprietor
Russ, if you see this, please comment on the comparison of the need for counseling centers for the military now and in the past. Has there been an increase in the need, say since the VN/Korean wars? If so, do you think it is in anyway related to the all-encompassing Conflict Resolution "stuff" we have had in our public schools during the past 30 years teaching a different philosophy than previously held in the old USA. Do military personnel now feel differently when they must face "real conflict" and use harsh methods, i.e., killing, to settle the conflict than they did in WWII?



Soldier allegedly kills 5 peers at ‘stress clinic’

Shooting happened at sprawling Camp Liberty base outside Baghdad
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30678715/

updated 9:09 p.m. ET, Mon., May 11, 2009

BAGHDAD - An American Army sergeant shot and killed five fellow soldiers following an altercation at a counseling center on a military base in Iraq Monday, officials said.



..............At the Pentagon, Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said the shooting occurred "in a place where individuals were seeking help."

"It does speak to me about the need for us to redouble our efforts in terms of dealing with the stress," Mullen said.

The U.S. military is coping with a growing number of stress cases among soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan — many of whom are on their third or fourth combat tours. Some studies suggest that about 15 percent of soldiers returning from Iraq suffer from some sort of emotional problems.

With violence declining, many soldiers face new challenges trying to shift from fighting a war to supporting the Iraqis — tasks that often require skills in which they have not been trained.................
inyerface
killing solves everything

that and tax cuts
Hondo
If the stress of paying taxes was so wonderful you'd think Democrats like Geithner would pay their share.
beasty
QUOTE (inyerface @ May 12 2009, 08:01 AM) *
killing solves everything



Not everything, but some things it does solve nicely.
inyerface
lemme know how playing God works out for ya on judgement day
Nomarchy
QUOTE (Hondo @ May 12 2009, 08:19 AM) *
If the stress of paying taxes was so wonderful you'd think Democrats like Geithner would pay their share.



Who said it was wonderful? Republicans have come unhinged. Every passing day the bromides get less funny, less relevant, less appropriate.
beasty
QUOTE (inyerface @ May 12 2009, 12:39 PM) *
lemme know how playing God works out for ya on judgement day


Sure. Late night in the dark sometime. Better wear brown pants.
beasty
QUOTE (Nomarchy @ May 12 2009, 06:32 PM) *
Who said it was wonderful? Republicans have come unhinged.


Cheapskate Biden thinks paying taxes is patriotic. rolleyes.gif
Russ Logan
QUOTE (Lord_Proprietor @ May 12 2009, 07:28 AM) *
Russ, if you see this, please comment on the comparison of the need for counseling centers for the military now and in the past. Has there been an increase in the need, say since the VN/Korean wars? If so, do you think it is in anyway related to the all-encompassing Conflict Resolution "stuff" we have had in our public schools during the past 30 years teaching a different philosophy than previously held in the old USA. Do military personnel now feel differently when they must face "real conflict" and use harsh methods, i.e., killing, to settle the conflict than they did in WWII?

I think there may be an increased need. I do not think it has anything to do with Conflict Resolution, etc. I do believe it has far more to do with the changed nature of warfare over the last century. Warfare is more impersonally lethal than the past "glorious" conflicts of the 19th century and preceding (although if one could haul up the shade of a veteran of Shiloh, or Antietam, or a survivor of Andersonville, I expect you would find a good deal of what today is called PTSD, formerly "combat fatigue"). Additionally, the conflicts of the last half of the preceding century have involved ill-defined battlefields and enemy combatants and a daily intensity of combat unlike even WWII and Korea, in general, with success and "victory" being even more amorphous, to say nothing of any popularly accepted reason to place one's life "...between their loved home and grim war's desolation...". With survival rates and return deployments both being higher, I think today we see more of the stress build up as the individual soldier repeats his/her combat experience over the course of the conflict.

All of the above is just my own observation based upon what I know and the combat soldiers I hear talking in my work. No special expertise involved. Most of them are quite well-adjusted and deal with it well. For some, a distinct and small minority of those with whom I come into contact, you get the sense that all may not be well, and they are looking for help. Thankfully, at least here, it seems most are finding it. Their quality as soldiers, and professionals at arms, is unquestioned from my observation - the bureaucracy of the military is another story. But that's a tale for another time and place.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE (Russ Logan @ May 12 2009, 07:58 PM) *
I think there may be an increased need. I do not think it has anything to do with Conflict Resolution, etc. I do believe it has far more to do with the changed nature of warfare over the last century. Warfare is more impersonally lethal than the past "glorious" conflicts of the 19th century and preceding (although if one could haul up the shade of a veteran of Shiloh, or Antietam, or a survivor of Andersonville, I expect you would find a good deal of what today is called PTSD, formerly "combat fatigue"). Additionally, the conflicts of the last half of the preceding century have involved ill-defined battlefields and enemy combatants and a daily intensity of combat unlike even WWII and Korea, in general, with success and "victory" being even more amorphous, to say nothing of any popularly accepted reason to place one's life "...between their loved home and grim war's desolation...". With survival rates and return deployments both being higher, I think today we see more of the stress build up as the individual soldier repeats his/her combat experience over the course of the conflict.


I suppose it's a different kind of stress as opposed to the kind of war where they send you out to fight and you fight until you get killed or maimed so badly you can't fight well enough to avoid being a hindrance to your own side.

I was thinking specifically of German WWII fighter pilots, expected to keep fighting until they got killed or captured. No rotation, no retirement, no getting bumped up to becoming a trainer. Just fight til you die. I can't imagine anything more depressing, but then again it does cut some variables out of the equation..

http://www.acepilots.com/german/ger_aces.html

German Luftwaffe Aces <h2 align="center">Messerschmitt Bf 109 and Focke Wulf 190 pilots</h2> AcePilots Home Page

Luftwaffe Main Page

Bf 109 Fw 190





Erich Hartmann

Adolph Galland

Günther Rall

Erich Rudorffer

Otto Kittel

Walter Nowotny

Several of them shot down more than 200 Allied airplanes. One of them, Erich Hartmann, destroyed 352 Russian planes. They flew, and racked up staggeringly high scores over North Africa, France, the Soviet Union, Great Britain, Poland, and, in the end, Germany itself. Two hundred aerial victories. By comparison, the top U.S. aces of World War Two achieved twenty or more; one of them, Major Richard Bong, shot down 40 Japanese planes. The leading aces of WWI, Manfred von Richthofen and Rene Fonck, 80 and 75. The high-scoring Russian and Japanese ace, about 60. The great U.S. aces of the Korean War knocked down fifteen MiGs. window.google_render_ad();While the 200+ kill Luftwaffe experten flew on the Eastern Front, many of their Western Front scored over 100 kills.

How did they do this, when no other aces in history, from any nation, at any time, on any front, came close? As a group, were they ten times better fighter pilots than their American opponents, as the scores of 200 vs. 20 might imply? I don't think so. "Why did the German pilots of WW2 scored so high" is an interesting question. One reader asked, "Were they using different rules?" And that suggested a possible analogy, because, in fact, the Luftwaffe pilots were using the same rules as others, if anything, somewhat stricter rules. Historically, fighter pilots have scored a "kill" when their air force gives them official credit for the aerial destruction of any enemy aircraft. In most countries and services, the pilots own combat report, i.e. his own, unsupported word, his good faith, sufficed. Of course, novice pilots had to prove themselves, and first-timers who returned to base with claims of vast numbers of enemy fighters who fell beneath their guns were viewed skeptically. Luftwaffe pilots were required to have independent confirmation from another pilot. But basically they were "playing by the same rules."

The difference lay, not in the rules, nor in some nonsensical Aryan racial superiority, but rather in the conditions of combat. By analogy, consider home run hitters in baseball. For many years Babe Ruth's record of 714 home runs remained the top score. Eventually Henry Aaron passed that number. Other sluggers, from different teams and from different eras have hit 500, 600, or more home runs. Despite these differences, the achievements of the home run hitters remain essentially comparable. The conditions of their achievements remained essentially the same.

But suppose that some ballplayers played only 30 games a season rather than 162. Indeed when Roger Maris (playing in a 162-game season) broke Babe Ruth's single season home run record (set in a 154-game season), that difference merited baseball's most famous asterisk.

What if some hitters faced minor league pitchers while others faced major leaguers? What if ballparks varied greatly in size, some with 250-foot centerfields and others with 600-foot distances down the middle? What if some players played year-round? What if some hitters were assigned with getting singles and drawing walks?

What about differences in equipment? About 1920, baseball replaced the so-called "dead ball" with a livelier ball, and the game changed forever. No one would try to compare a Mickey Mantle to a "Home Run" Baker. Similarly, it would be difficult to compare the achievements of pilots who flew 200 hp biplanes to those who flew 1,200 hp WW2 monoplanes to those who flew jets in Korea.

The frequency of contests? On the Russian Front, most aerial combat occurred in the vicinity of the battle lines; it was all about tactical air support, not long range strategic bombing. The short distances permitted multiple missions per day, no 14-hour bomber escort missions, the Luftwaffe pilots frequently did two or three sorties in a day.

The length of the career? The Germans had a "fly till you die" policy. No rotation home for training duty. No limit on missions or combat hours. While such a short-sighted policy hampered the Luftwaffe's ability to turn out large numbers of well-trained pilots later in the war, it permitted those who excelled to rack up more and more missions and more and more aerial victories. One Luftwaffe experte, Erich Rudorffer, flew over 1,000 missions and was shot down himself sixteen times. American pilots generally finished a tour of duty and rotated home for training, command, or flight test assignments. Some immediately "re-upped" for more combat, but they were the exceptions.

The quality of the opposition? With no disrespect to brave Russian fliers nor to greatly skilled Russian aces like Pokryshkin (60 victories), the war on the Eastern Front (both on the ground and in the air) was one of quality vs. quantity. The Soviet Union had immense reserves of manpower, raw materials, and industrial goods (both from their own factories and from U.S. Lend-Lease equipment). And Stalin was not afraid to use his massive resources profligately. Many, many poorly trained Russian fliers went up in poorly made aircraft.

Varying assignments? By policy, many American fighter groups were assigned bomber escort duty. Their responsibility was to protect the bombers, not to zoom off, hunting down enemy planes to shoot down. The 332nd Fighter Group, the famed Tuskegee Airmen, is a case in point; the group's highest scoring pilot was credited with "only" 4 kills, but they rarely lost a bomber to enemy fighters.

Another matter, which perhaps doesn't have a direct analogy in baseball, is a "target-rich environment." In World War One, especially in the first two years of the war, airplanes did not exist in large numbers. There just weren't that many of them in the air. In World War Two, airplanes were mass-produced, with hundreds of thousands of combat aircraft delivered to the combatant nations. With the jet era, beginning in Korea, airplanes became much larger, much more complex, and much more expensive. An F-14 Tomcat or a MiG-29 cannot be compared to a WWII fighter plane. No nation will ever again field such a large number of airplanes. And, no fighter pilot will ever shoot such large numbers; the targets just don't exist. One can sense this in reading about the air war in Korea; a pervasive theme is "looking for the MiGs." Would the MiGs be flying on a given day? "Double aces," i.e. pilots with ten or more kills, were a rarity in Korea. In Vietnam, the U.S. had one or two aces. In the Gulf War, none; a few pilots downed two or three Iraqi aircraft.

I think it's reasonable to predict that we will never see another ace. The targets just don't exist in large enough numbers.

All the factors that created opportunities for aces to pile up huge scores came together for German Luftwaffe pilots on the Russian Front. Erich Hartmann scored 352; Gerhard Barkhorn 301; Günther Rall 275; Otto Kittel 267; and Walter Nowotny 258. The long-serving Erich Rudorffer downed 222 enemy aircraft on all fronts: 136 in the East, 48 in the West, 26 in North Africa, and then 12 more in Me.262 jets over Germany.

inyerface
QUOTE (beasty @ May 12 2009, 06:43 PM) *
Sure. Late night in the dark sometime. Better wear brown pants.


I wouldn't be so nice as to warn you

you're a real gentlemanly ass hole
Nomarchy
QUOTE (beasty @ May 12 2009, 06:44 PM) *
Cheapskate Biden thinks paying taxes is patriotic. rolleyes.gif



So, I take it, everything patriotic you've done has been a "wonderful" experience for you, then, right?
Nomarchy
QUOTE (beasty @ May 12 2009, 06:43 PM) *
Sure. Late night in the dark sometime. Better wear brown pants.



QUOTE
lemme know how playing God works out for ya on judgement day


Try reading for comprehension. And, we're all duly impressed, by the way. Shaking in our proverbial boots.
Repub_Bub
QUOTE (Nomarchy @ May 12 2009, 11:50 PM) *
Try reading for comprehension. And, we're all duly impressed, by the way. Shaking in our proverbial boots.

inyerface
June 2006:

No one would have mentioned his name at all if President George W. Bush hadn’t singled him out in public. Lt. Gen. Stanley McChrystal, West Point ‘76, is not someone the Army likes to talk about. He isn’t even listed in the directory at Fort Bragg, N.C., his home base. That’s not because McChrystal has done anything wrong—quite the contrary, he’s one of the Army’s rising stars—but because he runs the most secretive force in the U.S. military. That is the Joint Special Operations Command, the snake-eating, slit-their-throats “black ops” guys...

http://www.prisonplanet.com/did-newly-anno...ation-wing.html

QUOTE
It was a point of pride that the Red Cross would never be allowed in the door, Jeff says. This is important because it defied the Geneva Conventions, which require that the Red Cross have access to military prisons. “Once, somebody brought it up with the colonel. ‘Will they ever be allowed in here?’ And he said absolutely not. He had this directly from General McChrystal and the Pentagon that there’s no way that the Red Cross could get in–they won’t have access and they never will. This facility was completely closed off to anybody investigating, even Army investigators.”
Lord_Proprietor
QUOTE (Russ Logan @ May 12 2009, 10:58 PM) *
I think there may be an increased need. I do not think it has anything to do with Conflict Resolution, etc. I do believe it has far more to do with the changed nature of warfare over the last century. Warfare is more impersonally lethal than the past "glorious" conflicts of the 19th century and preceding (although if one could haul up the shade of a veteran of Shiloh, or Antietam, or a survivor of Andersonville, I expect you would find a good deal of what today is called PTSD, formerly "combat fatigue"). Additionally, the conflicts of the last half of the preceding century have involved ill-defined battlefields and enemy combatants and a daily intensity of combat unlike even WWII and Korea, in general, with success and "victory" being even more amorphous, to say nothing of any popularly accepted reason to place one's life "...between their loved home and grim war's desolation...". With survival rates and return deployments both being higher, I think today we see more of the stress build up as the individual soldier repeats his/her combat experience over the course of the conflict.

All of the above is just my own observation based upon what I know and the combat soldiers I hear talking in my work. No special expertise involved. Most of them are quite well-adjusted and deal with it well. For some, a distinct and small minority of those with whom I come into contact, you get the sense that all may not be well, and they are looking for help. Thankfully, at least here, it seems most are finding it. Their quality as soldiers, and professionals at arms, is unquestioned from my observation - the bureaucracy of the military is another story. But that's a tale for another time and place.


Thanks, I've had only one 'close-up' experience with a soldier going 'beserk' and that was shortly before the end of WWII and in training in the US. As you said it was a case of CF for a sergeant who had had a very rough experience in Europe. He started running and screaming after hearing machine gun fire; he did not hurt others, just himself and had to be subdued by friends!

I'm still not too comfortable with some of the 'conflict resolution stuff' being taught in our public schools today; some of it seem somewhat unnatural, i.e., deviating from a behavioral or social norm, to me! But I grew up when we had to take care of things ourselves and had no counselors to soothe/assuage our fears.
Davis 2.0
QUOTE (Lord_Proprietor @ May 14 2009, 09:08 AM) *
Thanks, I've had only one 'close-up' experience with a soldier going 'beserk' and that was shortly before the end of WWII and in training in the US. As you said it was a case of CF for a sergeant who had had a very rough experience in Europe. He started running and screaming after hearing machine gun fire; he did not hurt others, just himself and had to be subdued by friends!

I'm still not too comfortable with some of the 'conflict resolution stuff' being taught in our public schools today; some of it seem somewhat unnatural, i.e., deviating from a behavioral or social norm, to me! But I grew up when we had to take care of things ourselves and had no counselors to soothe/assuage our fears.



Do you even consider these guys might be under stress because what they've doing is wrong, misguided and a disastrous clusterfork bound for failure?

Come on!


But no, that won't even enter your mind. By all means, blame the education system and not the mission.


<shakes head>
Lord_Proprietor
QUOTE (Davis 2.0 @ May 14 2009, 11:22 AM) *
Do you even consider these guys might be under stress because what they've doing is wrong, misguided and a disastrous clusterfork bound for failure?

Come on!


But no, that won't even enter your mind. By all means, blame the education system and not the mission.


<shakes head>


You certainly do need a counselor, really bad, Davis! Get an appointment pronto for your own protection and for the GF. Perhaps starting with Glasser's Reality Therapy***. tongue.gif

***
QUOTE
Reality Therapy is more than a counseling technique. Reality Therapy is a problem solving method that works well with people who are experiencing problems they want help solving, as well as those who are having problems and appear to not want any assistance. Reality Therapy also provides an excellent model for helping individuals solve their own problems objectively and serves as the ideal questioning series during coaching sessions.
inyerface
what a maroon
Davis 2.0
QUOTE (Lord_Proprietor @ May 14 2009, 09:31 AM) *
You certainly do need a counselor, really bad, Davis! Get an appointment pronto for your own protection and for the GF. Perhaps starting with Glasser's Reality Therapy***. tongue.gif

***



You're looking for answers but won't even entertain the thought that the mission might be the problem. They aren't policemen. They aren't meant to occupy for years.
inyerface
you can make a good dog bite
SpaceCowboy
A special thanks this Memorial Day to the outstanding Army and Air Force Docs and staff of Wilford Hall Medical Center for getting one of these fine fellows back home for the Memorial Day weekend.



And to the fellows - Thanks!
Lord_Proprietor
Army chief says US ready to be in Iraq 10 years
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090526/ap_on_...pe/us_us_iraq_6

By TOM CURLEY, Associated Press
Tue May 26, 6:23 pm ET

WASHINGTON – The Pentagon is prepared to leave fighting forces in Iraq for as long as a decade despite an agreement between the United States and Iraq that would bring all American troops home by 2012, the top U.S. Army officer said Tuesday.

Gen. George Casey, the Army chief of staff, said the world remains dangerous and unpredictable, and the Pentagon must plan for extended U.S. combat and stability operations in two wars. "Global trends are pushing in the wrong direction," Casey said. "They fundamentally will change how the Army works."........

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090526/ap_on_...pe/us_us_iraq_6

ohmy.gif



inyerface
of course they're ready

send money to the professional warmakers
Repub_Bub
QUOTE (inyerface @ May 27 2009, 06:06 AM) *
of course they're ready

send money to the professional warmakers

Just curious...how does North Korea fit into your military reasoning?
inyerface
like a gnat

kinda like you
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