What utter nonsnse. You can't get much more traditional or christian than the Catholic Church, of which Innocent is a former member.

There is nothing "christian"--traditional or otherwise--in your beliefs. That much is obvious. Tradional bigot, yes. Christian? That's ridiculous. Your beliefs are rooted in a twisted reading of the Old Testament, not in the New Testament.

Virtually everything I have mentioned regarding religion has come from the New Testament...if you were to think with something other than your knee you would have known that.

What does that have to do with anything? What is the procreative genetic impulse and how does it manifest itself behaviorally in 'man' (the species)? This I want to read.

No, procreation is not a genetic impulse in homo sapiens. Sexuality is the impulse, procreation sometimes the effect.





If it was "obviously cultural", then all this cowdoody about genetic and hormonal determination of "sexual orientation" by the time one exits the womb and mostly activated with the onset of puberty goes out the window.

What evidence are you talking about that I am ignoring with regard to the 'determination' of what kinds of sexual attractions one 'experiences' as ok to experience and perhaps to 'act upon'?

Biological, genetic and hormonal 'matter' is involved, but human sexuality is not biologically, genetically and hormonally determined.

Why? If the US doesn't encompass political values superior to other nations - such as our respect for human rights and dignity - what difference does it make? If we torture and they torture, why would anyone care who is doing the water boarding?



A very different concept of equality, as I'm sure you know. Political equality in the US doesn't equate to the idea that humans are all intrinsically equal in anything other than their right to equal access to political rights. It's not the claim, for instance, that everyone is equally talented in his or her various individual characteristics, or that everyone deserves equal economic prosperity, etc.

Of course, hence my post. Get it?

Waterboarding beats beheading,and only lasts a couple minutes in most cases. If that was the worst any foreign terrorist did, and only to non-uniformed illegal combatants I'd be pretty hapy.



I don't think the US has to be superior to everyone at everything (imposible anyway) to promote a system clearly superior to the others being marketed at this time. I think some people really do believe in equal prosperity for everyone except the political leaders. (and they just incidentally seek political power)

got uniforms?

hey ever been waterboarded?

Why would it feel good?

You are ignoring the most basic biological component of procreation.

It feels good to have a bowel movement and breathe, too.

You re nitpicking an obvious truth.

Now disprove procreation and bowel movements aren't pleasurable. Do that and you'll have an argument.

You know, it's one thing when American officials try to peddle this cowdoody overseas, it's quite another when you try to peddle this cowdoody here.

Promoting democracy worldwide???? Give me a break. The world, in one voice, would rightly exclaim: "Please, stop promoting democracy so much. We have enough of your farking democracy promotion."

"Defending the U.S."?? How the fark were we 'defending the U.S.' when we undermined democratically elected governments and directly and indirectly supported thugs and goons, dictators of the worst kind?

Yeah, Saddam was democratically elected along with the Taliban.

The biggest goon and dictator we ever supported was a lefty, and not the chickensheit little twirp kind like Kucinch, Reid or Nader. More of the ranting loon kind like, well, ...look around and take your pick.

Half the world is run by goons and dictators, at least. Sometimes you have to ally with one to get rid of another.

sorry but we supported Saddam

bush's grandfather worked with Hitler

come off your high horse

Kucinich too nice?

So what?






I'm sure they say the same thing about the average prison bitch.

Delay?

Scooter?

Abramoff?

Try Toricelli, Hubbell, McDougal, Huang, Tamraz, Wynn, Blackley, Rich and Traficant.

For starters.

You'll never get it. Never get caught up. Don't even try.



Having sex and taking a sheit are exactly the same. After you do it, you don't need to for awhile.

Sex is a biological impulse.

I'm attracted to men, so is Innocent, and Nomarch is attracted to women due to our individual genetic make ups.

Your attraction to sheep, however, is likely merely depravity.

I vote that sexual orientation/experimentation much more a choice than a chance(genetic:~)... I think that we all ultimately control who we are and what we do.

So I can be white if I want? (not that I want, penis shortening sounds painful)

You are white.

but still a big dick

Maybe we'll take a walk in the hood together one night and see who gets mugged first.

Who's nitpicking?

Why would it feel good? Doing cocaine feels good, too. So what?

Roll your eyes, again. That's about the extent of your argument, here.



So, all white folks have small penises and all black folks have big penises?

What a farking moron you are. In your case, a black farking moron.



You, since you're such a dick.

So, are you saying that black folks in the hood mug non-black people selectively?

I guaran-farking-tee you that if you and fredzbig take a walk in the hood, you'll be mugged faster than he will. By the time anyone even thinks of mugging HIM, he'll be living in a new, intestinally-based reality, as fredzbig would have beheaded him and stuffed the mugger's head up the mugger's own ass.

Finally. Somebody with an equal-opportunity opinion.



Just because you and Mizilus think so doesn't make it a hard fact.



There's only one way to find out.




Maybe, who knows. I don't know how fredz handles trouble, but I have a good guess as to who troublemakers are likely to pick on first. That goes for police troublemakers in rich white neighborhoods too.

haha. That's why I carry a registered AOW wallet gun just in case. Guy says "gimme your wallet", I whip out the wallet and put two quick rounds in his gut.

Who you are... and what you do... has little of nothing to do with what color you are(or how big your penis is:~)... or vice-versa... unless you decide that it does... and then it is still in your control.

So you are stating catagorically that there is no biological urge to preocreate?

You deserve more than an eyeroll, you deserve the disdain of all thinking people by having Bart Katz as a sycophant on this social issue.

Oh, you got that.

That alone ought to clue you in. I think you're being intentionally dense, personally, but that's your perrogative.

By the same token you're just dense and can't help it.

I am stating categorically that there is no identifiable urge to procreate in 'man'. The urge is to get satisfaction. Sexual satisfaction as one variety. Within the brain, as such, whether it comes from actual sex or something else, it 'registers' alike.

I deserve the disdain of all thinking people? What in the hell? Calm down, Bee.

Cross the bee, and prepare to get stung.

If "man" is just a higher animal, they why would man any different than lower animals and just go for satisfaction? It looks like your thinking matches the actions of most of the dates I've been out with, even if they try to hide it.

I give out what I get. Nomarchy's remark about my argument provoked the response. Unlike you, I disagree with people I respect, and don't hold grudges.

Nomarchy is arguing that it is Nurture, not Nature, and his argument--to be fair--is supported by recent behavior studies in animals. However, I disagree that the urge to procreate isn't biological. It is a survival skill exhibited by all successful living organisms, even if some of those do engage in the activity for other reasons.

I don't think I've held many grudges. Disdain of all thinking people? Sometimes I think you really do go over the top at the drop of a hat. It's just more noticeable when it happens to people you "respect".

Oh my! That comment was over the top??!! Nonsense. If you are going to attempt to quote me in the future, do try to get it right, and if you must constantly take idiotic, cheap shots at me, don't whine when I point out that they are idiotic cheap shots.



To which I replied:



That reply is hardly over the top.

Examples of over the top might be calling someonre a cvnt, going after their family members, or calling someone a a moron based on their ethnic backround or gender.

I'm sorry you don't appreciate the difference. When I go over the top, I assure you, you'll see the difference.

What's up with you and Lambchops anyway? You seem to think that you are superior due to a lack of good judgement in dates and Lambchops because he's a big dick, ooops, I mean he has a big dick.

Those assertions by each of you tend to add nothing to the content of th discussion and make the two of you seem somewhat self-centered and shallow. You are hardly the only attractive person on this board, and Lambchops is hardly the only one that claims to have an above average penis size. Heck all the men on this board claim to.

Who cares about appearance on a discussion board? It defeats the purpose of truly democratic discussion.



Thought you'd appreciate knowing that.

Nah, you're an ignorant moron based on the stupidity exhibited in your posts.

Typical loutish, over the top commentary by a resident bully and misogynist. Careful, you'll offend poor spot's delicate sensibilities.

I wasn't stupid enough to vote for Bush twice, so what does that make you? Einstein?

Come on, mention my daughter or my husband now, big man.

Your arrogance in the face of your demonstrated nescience and proclivity to argue in the face of superior knowledge and intelligence is almost too much to bear. You're not even fun to watch anymore.

Certainly there is a type of male, troll that likes to gang up on others. I expect brain cell number two along any moment.

I keep hoping that they disagree some day. The friction might generate some sort of intelligent thought.



Oh, so Nature vs. Nurture isn't a controversial issue disagreed on by people far more educated than anyone here? Are you really that stupid? Do you really think anyone else is? (O.K., I'll giv you Bub.)

Your arrogance in the face of common knowledge, and your sophomoric need to bully me has really been no fun for some time. So stop it. I won't stop showing up your idiocy in your frenzy to try and score a point off me.

The problem is you're far too emotional to ever do it successfully. Talk about arrogance? Who has been more WRONG than you on this war, this president, and this administration?

No one else on this board has failed to apologize when they're proven wrong. Just you.

If you don't like looking like an obsessive fool, then it's easy. Just stop doing it.

I could teach a bot to make more intelligent posts.

You're the one that lets your alligator mouth overload your hummingbird brain. You still argue almost anything even in the face of total and obvious proof of how wrong you are.

What proof would that be, Bart. What am I wrong about? That procreation isn't a biological urge? What indisputable fact proves that?

You are so tiresome. You just post general bashes like you scored a point. You haven't. Declaring victory means nothing, especially from you.

Where did you make one factual contribution to this discussion, let alone post any FACTS that disprove that procreation is a biological urge?

Come on, spell it out. I double dog dare you.

I don't need to explain, seeing as how you already have me as a sycophant in the Nomarch camp. He's doing quite well arguing the case and it's fun to watch you attack one of your own.

Some attack.

Try to get a grip. You are backing Nomarchy's position without even understanding what his position is.

It certainly would offend Bub's sensibilities. All sexuality is the same urge. It's about satisfaction, which explains the attitudes of the ancient Greeks just fine. All sex was natural.

You agree with that?



Like hell you do. This is just another example of what a total ass you make of yourself in your rush to "score a point" off me. You keep farking it up, Bart! Typical incompetent zealot.

You keep trying to throw sheit and I throw it back at you. You're neck deep in it now. Only an idiot would continue on the line you've taken.

And that line is......

Come on, arsehole. Either articulate what facts have disproven my assertion, or STFU already.



No. no you don't. You are an a s s h o l e that can't follow the thread of a conversation because you're too busy making snarky sophomoric comments to know what in the hell is actually being discussed.

You've yet to say ANYTHING intelligent on this thread.

Do you really not see that? I assure you it's beyond obvious in your lame, cowardly responses.

What facts am I wrong about Bart? Yes, you do need to explain THAT.

[[[crickets chirping]]]

Gee, is I'm such an idiot, or, actually:



...it's a wonder that Bart can't just post the relavent facts easily and decisively.



I suppose I underestimated you here, Bart. By agreeing with Nomarchy, you've decided that any sex is OK, even sheep sex.

After all, it's all about the urge.

I don't think I've done that. Maybe you should keep your rants aimed in some sensible direction.





There is no me and Lambchops, I don't know about the rest.



If you say so. Maybe you get PMs than I do.

That's not very likely...Davis' departure created the natural lefty vacuum.

Once again, spot. It's not about YOU. Changing the subject isn't going to help you anymore than it helps other bullies on this board. Again, just another attempt at a cheap shot. Missed again, dearie. You aren't very sensible about them, are you?

We were discussing what you consider to be an "over the top," comment by ME, which you criticised. I merely pointed out that your complaint was ridiculous in lieu of some of the other comments which you apparently think are just fine. My examples have certainly happened on this board while you've been here, some of them quite recently. IOW: You are a hypocrite for only pointing it out when someone you don't "like" does it. Think you can process that info? Or are you just going to talk about you and your supposed superiority? Change the subject? Talk about the losers you date?

Did you think you were being clever?

Wow.

My comments concerned public posts, but if you're getting PMs about THAT, I can't say I'm too surprised.

Bee, dearest, what are you talking about? How is any sex, according to Nomarchy, ok?

What????????????

Look, while you and I and practically everyone else considers people being sexually attracted to and having sex with animals (ehm, non-human animals) disgusting, perverted, illegal, immoral, etc. etc., that does not make such attractions and acts NOT sexual. For being sexual, manifestations of the sexual impulse in humans, they're not THEREBY "ok".

Countless thoughts and actions are 'natural', 'impulse-related', 'genetically- or hormonally-fixed or -triggered' AND STILL immoral, disgusting, inappropriate, illegal, etc.

OK, I must disagree. I think procreation is certainly genetic, as is our sexual preferences. I think we are driven to reproduce as a survival trait. Basic biological qualities of most living things includes the compulsion to propagate the species. We're hard wired to do so. Some of the species aren't for reasons having to do with how their genetics tosed out, but still the majority do.

You said:


I am glad you clarified, but your argument begs the question, why would something 'natural' be "immoral, disgusting, inappropriate, illegal, etc?"