Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Israel
C-Span sucks community > politics > Political Soapbox
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128
Bee
QUOTE
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


Pity that these truths aren't evident to moneygrubbing right wing violence loving zealots.

Maybe they should start their own Country. Somewhere else. Here in America, we do believe these things and that there is more to life than money.
beasty
QUOTE(arebuntz @ Jul 20 2006, 09:04 AM) [snapback]222046[/snapback]

Hey, you think just like them....



If you pay attention you know lefties believe on share or else. Their taxes aren't taken on a volunteer basis, but with a gun.
Bee
QUOTE(arebuntz @ Jul 20 2006, 12:04 PM) [snapback]222046[/snapback]

Hey, you think just like them....


I did when I was two. I have progressed beyond that. Apparently you haven't.
beasty
QUOTE(Bee @ Jul 20 2006, 09:05 AM) [snapback]222048[/snapback]

Pity that these truths aren't evident to moneygrubbing right wing violence loving zealots.





The framers weren't dirt farmers or painters.
Bee
QUOTE(beasty @ Jul 20 2006, 12:05 PM) [snapback]222047[/snapback]

We don't break our toys, and we don't tolerate others breaking them either.


But you expect them to tolerate you breaking theirs?

You are clueless. It's all about you, is it? Is your home being bombed? Are your kids killing or getting killed?

No one is breaking YOUR toys, bucko.
beasty
QUOTE(Bee @ Jul 20 2006, 09:06 AM) [snapback]222050[/snapback]

I did when I was two. I have progressed beyond that. Apparently you haven't.


Che's "new man" has a "new woman".
arebuntz
One of my favorite CSPAN segments was on again last night. Resolution supporting Israel in the House and all the Ds from the usual states lining up behind it. Perhaps the Rs strategy is to keep this Israeli effort going until November to divide large blue state D members from the rest of the D members. I thought Nadler and Wasserman were particularly entertaining.
Bee
QUOTE(beasty @ Jul 20 2006, 12:06 PM) [snapback]222049[/snapback]

If you pay attention you know lefties believe on share or else. Their taxes aren't taken on a volunteer basis, but with a gun.


Chnging the subject? Or just being nonsensical again.

Come on. Can't you defend your base and bloodthirsty POV?

I guess not.

QUOTE(arebuntz @ Jul 20 2006, 12:08 PM) [snapback]222054[/snapback]

One of my favorite CSPAN segments was on again last night. Resolution supporting Israel in the House and all the Ds from the usual states lining up behind it. Perhaps the Rs strategy is to keep this Israeli effort going until November to divide large blue state D members from the rest of the D members. I thought Nadler and Wasserman were particularly entertaining.



Keep killing innocent Lebanese so they can win an election?

You are one sick bastige.
arebuntz
QUOTE(Bee @ Jul 20 2006, 12:06 PM) [snapback]222050[/snapback]

I did when I was two. I have progressed beyond that. Apparently you haven't.

So should we put you down in the porportional response camp or the appeasement camp?

QUOTE(Bee @ Jul 20 2006, 12:10 PM) [snapback]222055[/snapback]

Chnging the subject? Or just being nonsensical again.

Come on. Can't you defend your base and bloodthirsty POV?

I guess not.
Keep killing innocent Lebanese so they can win an election?

You are one sick bastige.

Not me, Nadler and Wasserman....
Bee
QUOTE(arebuntz @ Jul 20 2006, 12:11 PM) [snapback]222056[/snapback]

So should we put you down in the porportional response camp or the appeasement camp?
Not me, Nadler and Wasserman....


The sanity camp.

It's your favorite segment but you don't agree?

Spineless aincha? laugh.gif
arebuntz
QUOTE(Bee @ Jul 20 2006, 12:12 PM) [snapback]222057[/snapback]


It's your favorite segment but you don't agree?


Favorite entertainment for sure, didn't state an opinion one way or the other.

Nadler and Wasserman on the other hand, Go Israel Go!

Final vote just cast was 410 to 8 in favor of condemning the recent attacks against the State of Israel, holding terrorists and their state-sponsors accountable for such attacks, supporting Israel’s right to defend itself, and for other purposes.

QUOTE


---- NAYS 8 ---

Abercrombie
Conyers
Dingell
Kilpatrick (MI)
McDermott
Paul (my boy)
Rahall
Stark

---- ANSWERED “PRESENT” 4 ---

Kaptur (the flag)
Kucinich
Lee (stonewall jackson robert e)
Waters (muddy)

---- NOT VOTING 10 ---

Davis (FL)
Davis, Jo Ann
Duncan
Evans
Fortenberry
McKinney (wazup wid dat?)
Northup
Nussle
Sanchez, Loretta
Westmoreland



I of course said we shouldn't concern ourselves with Israel, Taiwan, and South Korea years ago as their continued existence is not in our vital national interest and may very well be harmful to our vital national interest.

... and just what do they mean by accountable?
Bart Katz
QUOTE(beasty @ Jul 20 2006, 10:44 AM) [snapback]222030[/snapback]

Move to Cuba, and you can have a new president now.


Bee's got dual citizenship with Cuba, you know. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE(beasty @ Jul 20 2006, 10:58 AM) [snapback]222041[/snapback]

No, you're supposed to give them half your hens. It's the socialist way.
They might try.


Shotgun diplomacy.
Bee
QUOTE
Time to Try Something Else


If there is one trait that distinguishes great leaders from those who miss the mark, it is the ability to change course when a particular policy has failed. Franklin D. Roosevelt, consistently ranked by historians as one of America's three most successful Presidents (with Washington and Lincoln), put it like this: "Take a method and try it. If it fails, try another. But by all means, try something."

A corollary to FDR's view was the adage often cited by Albert Einstein which held that "insanity can be defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

One wonders, then, what either of these men would make of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as it is playing out today. Actually, one does not have to wonder. One can say with certitude that either would recommend a course correction and, even more likely, would encourage both sides – not to mention the United States – to consider a drastic overhaul of policies that produce little but suffering.
http://www.ipforum.org/display.cfm?id=6&Sub=15&dis=4


Just so, and written a year ago.

This policy of escalating violence is, in a word, stupid.
SherryB
Hunker Down With History

By Richard Cohen

Tuesday, July 18, 2006; A19



The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself is a mistake. It is an honest mistake, a well-intentioned mistake, a mistake for which no one is culpable, but the idea of creating a nation of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims (and some Christians) has produced a century of warfare and terrorism of the sort we are seeing now. Israel fights Hezbollah in the north and Hamas in the south, but its most formidable enemy is history itself.

This is why the Israeli-Arab war, now transformed into the Israeli-Muslim war (Iran is not an Arab state), persists and widens. It is why the conflict mutates and festers. It is why Israel is now fighting an organization, Hezbollah, that did not exist 30 years ago and why Hezbollah is being supported by a nation, Iran, that was once a tacit ally of Israel's. The underlying, subterranean hatred of the Jewish state in the Islamic world just keeps bubbling to the surface. The leaders of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and some other Arab countries may condemn Hezbollah, but I doubt the proverbial man in their street shares that view.

There is no point in condemning Hezbollah. Zealots are not amenable to reason. And there's not much point, either, in condemning Hamas. It is a fetid, anti-Semitic outfit whose organizing principle is hatred of Israel. There is, though, a point in cautioning Israel to exercise restraint -- not for the sake of its enemies but for itself. Whatever happens, Israel must not use its military might to win back what it has already chosen to lose: the buffer zone in southern Lebanon and the Gaza Strip itself.

Hard-line critics of Ariel Sharon, the now-comatose Israeli leader who initiated the pullout from Gaza, always said this would happen: Gaza would become a terrorist haven. They said that the moderate Palestinian Authority would not be able to control the militants and that Gaza would be used to fire rockets into Israel and to launch terrorist raids. This is precisely what has happened.

It is also true, as some critics warned, that Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon was seen by its enemies -- and claimed by Hezbollah -- as a defeat for the mighty Jewish state. Hezbollah took credit for this, as well it should. Its persistent attacks bled Israel. In the end, Israel got out and the United Nations promised it a secure border. The Lebanese army would see to that. (And the check is in the mail.)

All that the critics warned has come true. But worse than what is happening now would be a retaking of those territories. That would put Israel smack back to where it was, subjugating a restless, angry population and having the world look on as it committed the inevitable sins of an occupying power. The smart choice is to pull back to defensible -- but hardly impervious -- borders. That includes getting out of most of the West Bank -- and waiting (and hoping) that history will get distracted and move on to something else. This will take some time, and in the meantime terrorism and rocket attacks will continue.

In his forthcoming book, "The War of the World," the admirably readable British historian Niall Ferguson devotes considerable space to the horrific history of the Jews in 19th- and 20th-century Europe. Never mind the Holocaust. In 1905 there were pogroms in 660 different places in Russia, and more than 800 Jews were killed -- all this in a period of less than two weeks. This was the reality of life for many of Europe's Jews.

Little wonder so many of them emigrated to the United States, Canada, Argentina or South Africa. Little wonder others embraced the dream of Zionism and went to Palestine, first a colony of Turkey and later of Britain. They were in effect running for their lives. Most of those who remained -- 97.5 percent of Poland's Jews, for instance -- were murdered in the Holocaust.

Another gifted British historian, Tony Judt, wraps up his recent book "Postwar" with an epilogue on how the sine qua non of the modern civilized state is recognition of the Holocaust. Much of the Islamic world, notably Iran under its Holocaust-denying president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, stands outside that circle, refusing to make even a little space for the Jews of Europe and, later, those from the Islamic world. They see Israel not as a mistake but as a crime. Until they change their view, the longest war of the 20th century will persist deep into the 21st. It is best for Israel to hunker down.

cohenr@washpost.com

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6071701154.html

Bart Katz
Repost
arebuntz
President said in 2003 that US should try to shake up the status quo in the Middle East. Certainly doing that....
Bee
My father was booted out of Cuba, Bart.

You always seem to forget that. He was anti-Batista but not pro-commie.

He was a hell of a lot braver than you. That's for sure.

BTW. Go fark yousrelf.

QUOTE(arebuntz @ Jul 20 2006, 12:43 PM) [snapback]222065[/snapback]

President said in 2003 that US should try to shake up the status quo in the Middle East. Certainly doing that....


Bull in a China Shop.

His incompetence will insue the West gets "shaken up, too.

SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(SherryB @ Jul 20 2006, 11:42 AM) [snapback]222063[/snapback]

Hunker Down With History

By Richard Cohen

Tuesday, July 18, 2006; A19
The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself is a mistake. It is an honest mistake, a well-intentioned mistake, a mistake for which no one is culpable, but the idea of creating a nation of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims (and some Christians) has produced a century of warfare and terrorism of the sort we are seeing now. Israel fights Hezbollah in the north and Hamas in the south, but its most formidable enemy is history itself.

Yes, yes it was. The creation of any nation of European immigrants, regardless of faith was a mistake.

QUOTE(arebuntz @ Jul 20 2006, 11:43 AM) [snapback]222065[/snapback]

President said in 2003 that US should try to shake up the status quo in the Middle East. Certainly doing that....

"Creative destruction".
davisął
Should have probably set them up in Salt Lake City.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(davisął @ Jul 20 2006, 11:54 AM) [snapback]222070[/snapback]

Should have probably set them up in Salt Lake City.

That might have worked. The Mormons believe that they are descended from a lost Jewish tribe that immigrated to the Americas before the time of Christ.
Bart Katz
Nobody said anything about Bee's pappy. Too bad had such a stupid child though. sad.gif
Bee
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Jul 20 2006, 01:01 PM) [snapback]222073[/snapback]

Nobody said anything about Bee's pappy. Too bad had such a stupid child though. sad.gif


You are typical of the right-wing zealots that have to resort to lies and distortions and stoop to banal personal attacks to puff up your own obvious incompetence.

I pity you.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Bee @ Jul 20 2006, 12:06 PM) [snapback]222077[/snapback]

You are typical of the right-wing zealots that have to resort to lies and distortions and stoop to banal personal attacks to puff up your own obvious incompetence.

I pity you.


I'm sure you can't help being stupid. Perhaps limiting the scope of things you say might reduce the frequency of stupid remarks.
roserose
Disarm the terrorists and you have peace.

Disarm Israel and you have another holocost.

-Katz


Palestinians turn in their weapons and get land....

Israelis turn in their weapons and get annihilated.

-JT


Wrong thinking No memory Right wing bastiges. Pity pity Doom doom. mellow.gif
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Jul 19 2006, 09:46 PM) [snapback]221956[/snapback]

Some people are just intransigent. It's easy to tell someone else to try and deal rationally with radical murderers out to kill them. But some people just can't be dealt with. We've had moderate US presidents and Israeli PMs, and it hadn't slowed hezbollah or Hamas a bit.


WTF? It certainly wasn't immoderate or staunch U.S. Presidents and Israeli PMs who effectively created hezbollah or Hamas, either.

I think you know all too well when and how Hezbullah was launched. And why.

Your standard argument against appeasement and diplomacy just doesn't work here.

I've learned to appreciate your point increasingly so through our 'conversations' here. It's valid, to a certain extent.

But it's not an all-purpose rhetorical weapon that you can slay your 'detractors' with willy-nilly.

QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Jul 20 2006, 09:54 AM) [snapback]222069[/snapback]

Yes, yes it was. The creation of any nation of European immigrants, regardless of faith was a mistake.
"Creative destruction".


Yeah, a nation of European Jews, originally. Then, further populated with non-Central and Northern-European Jews, i.e. Mizrahim and Sephardim. Most recently with 'Russian' Jews.

The disdain of many Sephardic Isreali Jews for local Arabs (the 'bad indian' type) seems to exemplify Freud's dictum about the narcissism of small differences.
Friend Judy
QUOTE(roserose @ Jul 20 2006, 11:33 AM) [snapback]222084[/snapback]

Disarm the terrorists and you have peace.

Disarm Israel and you have another holocost.

-Katz
Palestinians turn in their weapons and get land....

Israelis turn in their weapons and get annihilated.

-JT
Wrong thinking No memory Right wing bastiges. Pity pity Doom doom. mellow.gif


Disarm terrorists, and you have more creative terrorists conducting even more bloodthirsty attacks with lower tech weaponry.
Nomarchy
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Jul 20 2006, 10:01 AM) [snapback]222073[/snapback]

Nobody said anything about Bee's pappy. Too bad had such a stupid child though. sad.gif


How would she have dual citizenship, then? How would Cuba claim her allegiance?
davisął
QUOTE(roserose @ Jul 20 2006, 12:33 PM) [snapback]222084[/snapback]

Disarm the terrorists and you have peace.

Disarm Israel and you have another holocost.

-Katz
Palestinians turn in their weapons and get land....

Israelis turn in their weapons and get annihilated.

-JT
Wrong thinking No memory Right wing bastiges. Pity pity Doom doom. mellow.gif



The world is never as black and white as zealots would have you believe.
Bee
Black-or-White Fallacy
Alias:

* Bifurcation
* Black-and-White Fallacy
* Either/Or Fallacy
* False Dilemma

Type: Informal Fallacy
Example:

Gerda Reith is convinced that superstition can be a positive force. "It gives you a sense of control by making you think you can work out what's going to happen next," she says. "And it also makes you feel lucky. And to take a risk or to enter into a chancy situation, you really have to believe in your own luck. In that sense, it's a very useful way of thinking, because the alternative is fatalism, which is to say, 'Oh, there's nothing I can do.' At least superstition makes people do things."

Source: David Newnham, "Hostages to Fortune"

Analysis
Exposition:

The problem with this fallacy is not formal, but is found in its disjunctive—"either-or"—premiss: an argument of this type is fallacious when its disjunctive premiss is fallaciously supported.
Exposure:

The Black-or-White Fallacy, like Begging the Question, is a validating form of argument. For example, some instances have the validating form:

Simple Constructive Dilemma:

Either p or q.
If p then r.
If q then r.
Therefore, r.

For this reason, this fallacy is sometimes called "false" or "bogus" dilemma. However, these names are misleading, since not all instances have the form of a dilemma; some instead take the following, also validating form:

Disjunctive Syllogism:

Either p or q.
Not-p.
Therefore, q.

Usually, the truth-value of premisses is not a question for logic, but for other sciences, or common sense. So, while an argument with a false premiss is unsound, it is usually not considered fallacious. However, when a disjunctive premiss is false for specifically logical reasons, or when the support for it is based upon a fallacy, then the argument commits the Black-or-White Fallacy.

One such logical error is confusing contrary with contradictory propositions: of two contradictory propositions, exactly one will be true; but of two contrary propositions, at most one will be true, but both may be false. For example:
Contradictories
It's hot today. It's not hot today.
Contraries
It's hot today. It's cold today.

A disjunction whose disjuncts are contradictories is an instance of the Law of Excluded Middle, so it is logically true. For instance, "either it's hot today or it's not hot today." In contrast, a disjunction whose disjuncts are contraries is logically contingent. For example, "either it's hot today or it's cold today." If an arguer confuses the latter with the former in the premiss of an argument, they commit the Black-or-White Fallacy.
Source:

S. Morris Engel, With Good Reason: An Introduction to Informal Fallacies (Fifth Edition) (St. Martin's, 1994), pp. 140-142.
Analysis of the Example:

Fatalism is not the alternative to superstition; it is an alternative. Superstition involves acting in ways that are ineffective, whereas fatalism involves failing to act even in situations in which our efforts can be effective. Fortunately, there are other alternatives, such as recognizing that there are some things we can control and other things we cannot, and only acting in the first case.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Nomarchy @ Jul 20 2006, 12:44 PM) [snapback]222087[/snapback]

How would she have dual citizenship, then? How would Cuba claim her allegiance?



How would you not recognize my sarcasm?
Bee
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Jul 20 2006, 02:23 PM) [snapback]222100[/snapback]

How would you not recognize my sarcasm?


Caught lying again?

Before you use them big seven-letter words, perhaps you need to look up their meaning.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE
Lebanon: Hizbullah kidnaps two foreign journalists in Beirut
According to local police in Beirut, Hizbullah operatives kidnapped two foreign journalists in the center of the city Thursday.


No further details are available at this time. (AFP)


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3279058,00.html

That'll help.
davisął
The first thing I thought was, "that was pretty forking stupid".


<shakes head>

It's been said here and elsewhere that neither side wants a solution right now. For media's sake.
Human Ills
QUOTE(arebuntz @ Jul 20 2006, 09:04 AM) [snapback]222046[/snapback]

Hey, you think just like them....

she is them.

QUOTE(davisął @ Jul 20 2006, 12:05 PM) [snapback]222112[/snapback]

The first thing I thought was, "that was pretty forking stupid".
<shakes head>

LMAO...
roserose
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Jul 20 2006, 12:41 PM) [snapback]222086[/snapback]

Disarm terrorists, and you have more creative terrorists conducting even more bloodthirsty attacks with lower tech weaponry.



QUOTE(davisął @ Jul 20 2006, 12:56 PM) [snapback]222092[/snapback]

The world is never as black and white as zealots would have you believe.


Illogical, naive, even childish thinking. By definition, the terrorist is one who uses terror to extract whatever 'he' can from my resourses with little or no cost to his own. (Think 'mugger' with a weapon)
Now, if the 'terrorist', for lack of weaponry or lack of access to my person (and accumulated belongings [implied]) must (shift thinking to "Sword of Damocles") resort to other means of survival, such mundane activites as growing his own food, repairing his own roof, fixing his own plumbing; activites that keep that person very occupied; then priorities radically change. What is 'his', he will, by necessity, work to protect and nurture, and what is 'mine' will not longer be so greatly coveted or despised by him. I realize that, like the poor, thieves will always be among us, so the best we can do is continually strive to enable the poor and disable the thieves. IMO, Ignorance can be cured with impartation of knowledge of arts and skills but stupidity, like some diseases cannot be cured and, therefore, must be isolated until irradicated. As it stands today (to put it in terms most graphic) we are forced to react to the stupid muggers' assaults upon us and our best future defenses will be to force his hands to cover his arse, his ears, his head, whatever; just so he can't point his weapons at us and squeeze his little triggers.

To keep it light: In the words of Bill Cosby's dad to his son: Son; I helped bring you into this world and I can take you out; and I can make another one that's looks just like you. Just kidding, of course. wink.gif
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(davisął @ Jul 20 2006, 02:05 PM) [snapback]222112[/snapback]

The first thing I thought was, "that was pretty forking stupid".
<shakes head>

It's been said here and elsewhere that neither side wants a solution right now. For media's sake.

Anything short of a disastrous defeat is a victory in Hezbollah's eyes. Even with a disastrous defeat, they will claim victory for having stood up to Israel.

Israel may not stop before they have inflicted so much damage on Lebanon that they would have been better off accepting the damage from confronting Hezbollah instead.

Teaching them a lesson, as it were.
Human Ills
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Jul 20 2006, 12:16 PM) [snapback]222116[/snapback]

Anything short of a disastrous defeat is a victory in Hezbollah's eyes. Even with a disastrous defeat, they will claim victory for having stood up to Israel.

Israel may not stop before they have inflicted so much damage on Lebanon that they would have been better off accepting the damage from confronting Hezbollah instead.

Teaching them a lesson, as it were.

Good Muslims must stand up to the bad Muslims...elsewise there is no such thing as a good Muslim.
davisął
QUOTE(roserose @ Jul 20 2006, 02:16 PM) [snapback]222115[/snapback]

Illogical, naive, even childish thinking. By definition, the terrorist is one who uses terror to extract whatever 'he' can from my resourses with little or no cost to his own. (Think 'mugger' with a weapon)
Now, if the 'terrorist', for lack of weaponry or lack of access to my person (and accumulated belongings [implied]) must (shift thinking to "Sword of Damocles") resort to other means of survival, such mundane activites as growing his own food, repairing his own roof, fixing his own plumbing; activites that keep that person very occupied; then priorities radically change. What is 'his', he will, by necessity, work to protect and nurture, and what is 'mine' will not longer be so greatly coveted or despised by him. I realize that, like the poor, thieves will always be among us, so the best we can do is continually strive to enable the poor and disable the thieves. IMO, Ignorance can be cured with impartation of knowledge of arts and skills but stupidity, like some diseases cannot be cured and, therefore, must be isolated until irradicated. As it stands today (to put it in terms most graphic) we are forced to react to the stupid muggers' assaults upon us and our best future defenses will be to force his hands to cover his arse, his ears, his head, whatever; just so he can't point his weapons at us and squeeze his little triggers.

To keep it light: In the words of Bill Cosby's dad to his son: Son; I helped bring you into this world and I can take you out; and I can make another one that's looks just like you. Just kidding, of course. wink.gif



I'll be damned. She can actually communicate without resorting to babble or riddles. That is helpful. You should try it more.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Human Ills @ Jul 20 2006, 02:19 PM) [snapback]222117[/snapback]

Good Muslims must stand up to the bad Muslims...elsewise there is no such thing as a good Muslim.

I think that's the lesson that Israel is trying to get accross.

QUOTE(davisął @ Jul 20 2006, 02:21 PM) [snapback]222119[/snapback]

I'll be damned. She can actually communicate without resorting to babble or riddles. That is helpful. You should try it more.

She is a he.
Bee
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Jul 20 2006, 03:16 PM) [snapback]222116[/snapback]

Anything short of a disastrous defeat is a victory in Hezbollah's eyes. Even with a disastrous defeat, they will claim victory for having stood up to Israel.

Israel may not stop before they have inflicted so much damage on Lebanon that they would have been better off accepting the damage from confronting Hezbollah instead.

Teaching them a lesson, as it were.


No one seems to be learning ANYTHING.

Just the same old stupid, mindless violence.

BTW:

WE call these people "terrorists." That isn't the way they see themselves, and it might do some folks here a bit of good to remember that THEY consider Isreal the "terrorists." They consider the U.S. to be "terrorists" too. The term was coined during the French Revolution, during the "reign of terror" and I suppose Loius thought Robes Pierre was a terrorist. He probably was, but he also freed the French people from tyranny. It's not a process that takes a year but probably dozens. Giving the Lebanese a year to oust Hizbollah is unfair and is not doing OUR CAUSE any good whatsoever

Basing your argument on arbitrry lablels isn't terribly logical.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE
Lebanese Army may join forces with Hizbullah
By JPOST.COM STAFF

The Lebanese Minister of Defense warned Israel Thursday that if IDF ground forces are sent into southern Lebanon, Lebanese troops will fight along with the Hizbullah against Israel.

(all)
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull

And that could bring Syria in.
Bee
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Jul 20 2006, 03:27 PM) [snapback]222122[/snapback]


What did they think would happen.

It's the same playbook.
davisął
QUOTE(Bee @ Jul 20 2006, 02:28 PM) [snapback]222123[/snapback]

What did they think would happen.

It's the same playbook.



They could probably put it on a schedule.
Bee
QUOTE
"insanity can be defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."


Who wants to argue logic with Einstein?
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Bee @ Jul 20 2006, 02:25 PM) [snapback]222121[/snapback]

No one seems to be learning ANYTHING.

Just the same old stupid, mindless violence.

BTW:

WE call these people "terrorists." That isn't the way they see themselves, and it might do some folks here a bit of good to remember that THEY consider Isreal the "terrorists." They consider the U.S. to be "terrorists" too. The term was coined during the French Revolution, during the "reign of terror" and I suppose Loius thought Robes Pierre was a terrorist. He probably was, but he also freed the French people from tyranny. It's not a process that takes a year but probably dozens. Giving the Lebanese a year to oust Hizbollah is unfair and is not doing OUR CAUSE any good whatsoever

Basing your argument on arbitrry lablels isn't terribly logical.

But I didn't.
Bee
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Jul 20 2006, 03:33 PM) [snapback]222127[/snapback]

But I didn't.


No you didn't.

sorry.

You are much too clever for logical fallacies. Frankly I was too lazy to go back and attach rose's post.

I won't do it again..
roserose
Bee might be blaming labeling on me because I label terrorists as 'stupid muggers'. I suspect bee assigns such labels to our own foreheads. smile.gif
Bee
QUOTE(roserose @ Jul 20 2006, 03:38 PM) [snapback]222131[/snapback]

Bee might be blaming labeling on me because I label terrorists as 'stupid muggers'. I suspect bee assigns such labels to our own foreheads. smile.gif


See above.

Wrong, as usual.
SpaceCowboy
here is the analysis of the situation from Stratfor. Since Stratfor is a subscription site, I'll just spam the whole thing. smile.gif

Special Report: Situation Review
By George Friedman

We have been following developments in the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict closely for several days. At this writing, the air-rocket war continues to rage, but the Israeli ground offensive that we would have expected by now has not yet been launched. There is some speculation that it will not be launched -- that a combination of air operations and a diplomatic process will be sufficient, from Israel's point of view, to negate the need for a ground attack.

While the various processes grind their way along, it is time to review the situation.

The first point to bear in mind is that the crisis did not truly begin with the capture of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah. The kidnappings presented a serious problem for Israel, but could not, by themselves, define the geopolitical issue. That definition came when Hezbollah rockets struck Haifa, Israel's third-largest city, on July 13. There were also claims coming from Hezbollah, and confirmed by Israeli officials, that Hezbollah had missiles available that could reach Tel Aviv. Israel's population is concentrated in the Tel Aviv-Jerusalem corridor and in the Tel Aviv-Haifa corridor. In effect, Hezbollah had attained the ability to strike at the Israeli heartland. Hezbollah has been hitting the northern part of this heartland, as well as pounding Israel's northern frontier.

The capture of two soldiers posed a symbolic challenge to Israel, but the rocket attacks posed a direct geopolitical threat. Israel had substantial room for maneuver regarding the captured troops. The threat to the heartland, however, could not be evaded. To the extent possible, Israel had to stop the missile attacks. As important, it also had to eliminate Hezbollah's ability to resume such attacks. The Israelis can tolerate these strikes for a certain period of time, so long as the outcome is a final cessation. What was not an option for Israel was to engage in temporary solutions that would allow Hezbollah to attack the heartland regularly, at its discretion. Hezbollah has posed a problem that Israel cannot choose to ignore.


http://web.stratfor.com/images/middl...cket-range.jpg


Hezbollah's reasons for doing so at this time are not altogether clear. It certainly has to do with the crisis in Palestinian politics: Hezbollah wants to stake a place for itself as Palestine redefines itself. It also has to do with the vacuum created by the withdrawal of Syrian forces from Lebanon and freedom of action for Hezbollah that previously has been denied it by the Syrians. Finally, it is clear that Iranian and Shiite politics within the wider Islamic world have made Hezbollah action at this time attractive for the group's Iranian patrons.

However complex Hezbollah's motives might be, the consequences of its actions are crystal-clear: From the Israeli perspective, it is imperative that the rocket attacks must be shut down.

Israel's Imperfect Options

Israel has three tools at its disposal.

One is diplomacy. There is a general consensus, even among many in Lebanon and Arab countries such as Saudi Arabia, that Hezbollah's actions have been unreasonable and undesirable. It would not be too difficult, we would think, to create a circumstance in which the two Israeli soldiers are released, a cease-fire is declared and an international monitoring team inserted into the region. That is what the French, for example, have proposed, and what is being discussed now.

The problem with this option, from the Israeli point of view, is that it puts off a solution to the deeper problem posed by Hezbollah to a later day -- one that might not be so advantageous for Israel. Israel has a built-in distrust of international peacekeeping operations -- dating back to May 1967, when the United Nations, without consulting Israel, withdrew peacekeepers from Sinai at the behest of the Egyptians. This cultural bias against peacekeepers is reinforced by the fact that Hezbollah could rearm itself behind the peacekeeping shield. Whether the peacekeepers would conduct operations to prevent this -- in effect, carrying out counterinsurgency operations in Lebanon in support of Israel's goals -- is doubtful in the extreme. Instead, the presence of a peacekeeping force might facilitate a more substantial Hezbollah capability down the road. This is, at least, how the Israelis think of it, and their position therefore has been consistent: The outcome of this conflict must be the destruction of Hezbollah, or at least its offensive capability, for an extended period of time.

That leads to Israel's other two options, both of which would be carried out with military force.

The first step has been the Israeli air campaign. All modern military operations by advanced powers begin with air campaigns. Their purpose is to prepare the battlefield for land attack and, in some cases, to force a political settlement. In Kosovo, for example, air attacks alone were sufficient to convince the Yugoslav government to concede its control over Kosovo. In the case of Desert Storm, the air campaign came in preparation for a ground attack.

Air forces around the world like to make extravagant claims as to what air power can do; the Israeli air force is no exception. However, while an air campaign can severely hamper Hezbollah -- particularly by attacking launch sites and storage facilities, and generally making launches difficult -- the likelihood that air power can, by itself, eliminate the threat is unlikely.

To reiterate a key point, the nature of the threat is continual attacks on Israel's geopolitical heartland. Now, it is possible that Israeli air operations could force some sort of political settlement, but again, as with the diplomatic option, it is difficult to conceive of a political settlement that guarantees what Israel wants. Even a Hezbollah withdrawal from southern Lebanon, coupled with occupation of the area by the Lebanese army, does not solve the problem. This solution assumes that the Lebanese army has the will and ability to prevent Hezbollah's return. For this to work, the Lebanese army would have to agree to dismantle Hezbollah's infrastructure, and Hezbollah would have to agree to let them do so -- and Israel would have to place its faith in both Hezbollah and the Lebanese army and government. It is difficult to imagine a situation in which the Israelis can reach a satisfactory political settlement. The air campaign as a political tool suffers from the same defect as the diplomatic track: It is of value only if Israel is prepared to accept a solution that does not guarantee a complete end to the threat posed by Hezbollah -- and potentially might leave the Israelis in a worse position, militarily, down the road.

There is an additional political fact and problem. Obviously, any threat to a heartland generates a unique political response. In Israel, the Olmert government is heir to Ariel Sharon's quest for an imposed political settlement on the Palestinians. This is a strategy opposed from the right, by Benjamin Netanyahu of Likud, who argues that any settlement that leaves military options in the hands of the Palestinians is unsustainable. The Hezbollah issue is the Palestinian issue on steroids. If Olmert were to agree to any settlement that does not include dismantling Hezbollah's capabilities or that relies on a third party to police that dismantling, Netanyahu would attack hard -- and we suspect that enough of Olmert's coalition would defect to force a political crisis in Israel.

There has been no attack from Netanyahu, however. This can be partly explained by the Israeli tradition that politics stops when war begins. But we suspect this goes deeper than that. Olmert is keeping Netanyahu informed as to his intentions and Netanyahu is content with the course being pursued, making it clear in public that his support depends on the government faithfully pursuing that course -- meaning the destruction of Hezbollah as an organized entity. Olmert does not have much room for maneuver on this, nor is it apparent that he wants any. The goal is the destruction of Hezbollah; anything less would not work, on any level, for Israel.

The Logic for a Ground Offensive

From this, we must conclude that the air campaign comes in preparation for what is Israel's third option: a ground offensive. If Israel's goal is the destruction of Hezbollah's ability to strike the Israeli heartland for an extended period of time, the only way to hope to achieve this is from the ground. Those conducting air operations can see only what can be seen from the air. And even if they can hit whatever they see, eliminating the threat requires a ground presence. Therefore, we continue to believe that logic and evidence argue for an Israeli invasion of southern Lebanon -- and that any possible diplomatic or political resolution, however tempting, ultimately could not satisfy Israel's security requirements.

When we say invasion, we do not mean occupation. Israel has had its fill of counterinsurgency operations in Lebanon. This would be a raid in force. A large force would push into Lebanon, with two missions: the destruction of Hezbollah as an army and the location and destruction of all heavy weaponry. This solution would not be permanent, but it would achieve two ends. First, it would mean that for Hezbollah or a successor organization to regroup would take years. Second, it would leave no third party shielding Hezbollah while it regrouped. This strategy gives Israel what it wants now and options in the future.

Three more Israeli battalions were mobilized today. The United States, which certainly knows Israel's intentions, is now extracting U.S. citizens from Beirut. Israeli aircraft are working over Hezbollah positions in the BekaaValley. The United States, Israel's patron, is clearly in favor of the destruction of Hezbollah and there is no broad-based opposition to an Israeli offensive internationally. It is a window of opportunity that Israel will not pass up. The very thing that makes diplomatic solutions possible also makes invasion, for the Israelis, attractive.

Our analysis therefore runs as follows:

1. Only an invasion on the ground can provide Israel with the solution it wants to the threat Hezbollah has posed.

2. A diplomatic or political settlement not only cannot guarantee this outcome, but it would make later Israeli responses to Hezbollah even more difficult. Israel has more room for maneuver internationally now than it will have later.

3. The internal politics of Israel will make it very difficult for Olmert to come out of this with a less-than-definitive outcome.

4. Israel will seek to deal with Hezbollah without undertaking counterinsurgency operations in the long term. This means attack, sterilization of the threat, and withdrawal.

There has been much speculation about diplomatic solutions, the possibility that there will not be an invasion, and so on. But when we ignore the rhetoric and look at the chessboard, it is difficult to see how this conflict ends without some action on the ground. When we examine the behavior of the Israelis, they are taking the steps that would be needed for an invasion. Obviously we could be wrong, and clearly the invasion has not come at the earliest possible moment, as we had predicted. Nevertheless, when we step through the logic, we keep coming out with the same answer: invasion.

Send questions or comments on this article to analysis@stratfor.com.
davisął
QUOTE
Our analysis therefore runs as follows:

1. Only an invasion on the ground can provide Israel with the solution it wants to the threat Hezbollah has posed.

2. A diplomatic or political settlement not only cannot guarantee this outcome, but it would make later Israeli responses to Hezbollah even more difficult. Israel has more room for maneuver internationally now than it will have later.

3. The internal politics of Israel will make it very difficult for Olmert to come out of this with a less-than-definitive outcome.

4. Israel will seek to deal with Hezbollah without undertaking counterinsurgency operations in the long term. This means attack, sterilization of the threat, and withdrawal.



Sterilization of the threat? blink.gif What does that consist of in Lebanon? All targets that appear armed? If that is the case....by the time they are done everyone will want revenge, even those who did not support Hezbollah. And what do they leave behind when they withdraw?

A message?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2010 Invision Power Services, Inc.