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SherryB
July 31, 2006

The Return of the Neocons

They were down, but not out…

by Justin Raimondo

In the weeks before the Israeli re-invasion of Lebanon, Israel's amen corner launched a preemptive attack against the enemy – Condoleezza Rice. Richard Perle, writing in the Washington Post, lashed out against the "dithering" of the Bush administration:

"For more than five years, the administration has dithered. Bush gave soaring speeches, the Iranians issued extravagant threats and, in 2003, the State Department handed the keys to the impasse to the British, French and Germans (the 'E.U.-3'), who offered diplomatic valet parking to an administration befuddled by contradiction and indecision. And now, on May 31, the administration offered to join talks with Iran on its nuclear program. How is it that Bush, who vowed that on his watch 'the worst weapons will not fall into the worst hands,' has chosen to beat such an ignominious retreat?"

The Lobby was furious: what was holding up the "transformation" of the Middle East? How is it that the regimes of Bashar al-Assad and the Iranian mullahs were still standing? Having led the nation into the Iraqi sinkhole, into which the president's ratings and the prospects of a Republican-led Congress were rapidly vanishing, Perle and his gang were on the outs with the administration anyway. It was time for a comeback.

Their policy of "regime change" in the Middle East was discredited, and their vaunted influence left for dead in the rubble of "liberated" Iraq. But the neocons had been down before, and they always came back. Besides which, no one knows better than the War Party that the best defense is an aggressive offense. They could afford to make a few waves, and Perle's broadside caused a stir in Washington: suddenly the discontent of the "conservatives" (i.e., neoconservatives) was making itself heard. But even bigger waves were in the making…
The Israeli blitz may not have succeeded in cleaning out Hezbollah from the southern precincts of Lebanon, but it will almost certainly accomplish the expulsion of the "realists" from the councils of state and put the neocons back in the saddle in Washington. Their enemy, the American secretary of state, has been blown out of the water by the Israeli strike at Qana, where 60 civilians, 37 of them children, were slaughtered. This provoked a response from the Lebanese: Don't bother coming to Lebanon, Condi – until you call off your dogs.

It's odd, but the United Nations seems to be getting the worst of it: as the Israelis blasted two of their observation posts to smithereens, killing four, a crowd of Lebanese invaded UN offices in Beirut, and smashed the place up, yelling "Death to Israel, death to America."

Well, not quite the worst of it – this is a fate reserved for the Lebanese. Muslim, Christian, Druze – whatever – all have been targeted for destruction by the Israelis, whose "Justice" Minister Haim Ramon averred:

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah."

When Slobodan Milosevic stood in the dock of the war crimes tribunal in The Hague, the accusation lodged against him by the court and the international media was that of attempted "ethnic cleansing." His intent, said his critics, was to drive out the Bosnian Muslims and the Albanian Kosovars and sow the bloody soil with the seeds of a regenerated Greater Serbia. While there is some debate over whether this devilish plan ever existed, even as a concept in the late Serbian dictator's feverish brain, there is no doubt that this is precisely what is being attempted in Lebanon. They want to set up a sanitized "zone" cleansed of all Arabs, all Muslims, all possible resistance, the northern equivalent of the great Wall of Separation they're building to keep the Palestinians from their historic lands.

They're building Fortress Israel, an impregnable redoubt of Zionism. But they have no intention of hunkering down and luxuriating in a U.S.-taxpayer-supported isolationism. From the security of their base they can expand and extend Israeli influence into Syria, Kurdistan, and beyond, taking their place as the regional hegemon, overshadowing even the United States.

Rice's efforts to negotiate, rather than let the sheer momentum of events unleashed by the American invasion of Iraq take their natural course, undermine Israeli interests. Their agenda includes a regional war, the takedown of Syria's Ba'athists, and a confrontation with the Iranians ending in regime change. "Faster, please," exhorts Michael Ledeen, a leading neocon and founding president of the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA), who has made a career out of implementing this program.

The Americans may not have been listening to Ledeen's advice, but the Israelis sure took it up with alacrity – and so far it's working. In Washington, the Amen Corner is back in the saddle, and, more important, two major Israeli goals have so far been achieved.

Israel has drawn the U.S. into the conflict, and this may become more than merely rhetorical if and when American soldiers are sent in with the "international" peacekeepers. Unless common sense prevails in Washington – an unlikely scenario – or Secretary Rice succeeds in cobbling together an agreement to end the fighting, Americans may soon be fighting and dying for a Greater Israel.

The other objective, however, is equally important, albeit part of a long-term project. The invasion and the American response confirm in Muslim eyes the central thesis of Osama bin Laden and his cohorts that the "Crusaders" are the real empowering agent of the "Zionist entity" – and that it is necessary to strike the American homeland if victory is to be won on the battlefields of the Middle East. Bin Laden's chief adjunct, Ayman al-Zawahiri, was quick to pounce on the invasion, and crow, in effect, "We told you so!"

Israel's strategy has always been to embolden and encourage Arab-Muslim radicalism, to smash secular moderates in the old PLO and, now, sideline Palestinian "president" Mahmoud Abbas, and empower nutballs – bin Laden, Hassan Nasrallah, etc. – all the better to rally the West behind Israel's cause. They nurtured Hamas, in its early years, as a supposedly quietist alternative to the militant PLO. Now they are reaping the whirlwind, as the "blowback" comes back to haunt them in the form of suicide bombers – just as Hezbollah was birthed by the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, which ended, ultimately, in Israel's ignominious retreat and the establishment of Nasrallah as a leading voice in a democratic Lebanon.

That ending, however, is being challenged by the Israelis, whose jealousy of a thriving as well as liberal Arab neighbor to the north has, in part, driven popular support for the invasion. The cafes and skyscrapers of a revived Beirut attracted visitors from throughout the world, while tourists – except for Christian fundamentalist crazies and the thinning trickle of Jews making aliya – largely disdained the Zionist Sparta. For the Israelis, the sight of an Arab success story was a reproach and a reminder of their one big defeat.

In the poisonous political culture of the Middle East, this meant the Israelis would have to strike back one day – and so they have. Tit for tat, insult for insult, massacre and revenge – it's the infamous "cycle of violence" that has turned the region volcanic and threatened us with the eruption of a third (some would say fourth) world war.

We have allowed ourselves to be dragged into this on the Israeli side, a move that runs counter to American interests – and endangers the security of the nation and the life of every citizen (especially those living abroad). How did we get here? How do we get out? These are questions for another column, but the first requires some sort of partial answer, so I'll just provide a link.

This country may be too far gone down the road to perdition to be saved at this late date, but we who saw this coming have no choice but to face the future and fight. We don't have to accept that Washington is, today, Israeli-occupied territory, and that the interests of a foreign power trump our own in the minds of our policymakers and leaders. We don't have to sit passively and watch it all unfold on our television screens – we can act, we can challenge our "leaders," we can build a movement to take back our country's foreign policy from the hijackers and make sure it serves the American people once again."




antiwar.com

I love his writing. smile.gif
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE
They're building Fortress Israel, an impregnable redoubt of Zionism. But they have no intention of hunkering down and luxuriating in a U.S.-taxpayer-supported isolationism. From the security of their base they can expand and extend Israeli influence into Syria, Kurdistan, and beyond, taking their place as the regional hegemon, overshadowing even the United States.


Yep, if'n it ain't Neocons and Jews it's them Zionists messin' things up. Gonna take over the world.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(SherryB @ Jul 31 2006, 02:11 PM) [snapback]225903[/snapback]

July 31, 2006

The Return of the Neocons

They were down, but not out…

by Justin Raimondo

That ending, however, is being challenged by the Israelis, whose jealousy of a thriving as well as liberal Arab neighbor to the north has, in part, driven popular support for the invasion. The cafes and skyscrapers of a revived Beirut attracted visitors from throughout the world, while tourists – except for Christian fundamentalist crazies and the thinning trickle of Jews making aliya – largely disdained the Zionist Sparta. For the Israelis, the sight of an Arab success story was a reproach and a reminder of their one big defeat.


This is just plain silly.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Bee @ Jul 31 2006, 01:57 AM) [snapback]225761[/snapback]

As if you'd know.

About those "Fathers" that supposedly didn't die with their kids this morning.

Seems to me you were the idiot.

Can't admit it even after Bushie did, can ya?

Sissy-boys refuse to admit errors. You epitomize that.

smile.gif


Just because you're so farking confused, don't try to lay it off on someone else.


QUOTE(CharlieRay @ Jul 31 2006, 06:55 AM) [snapback]225771[/snapback]

For the same reason the Israel ignores UN resolutions I suppose... national security... and they had less than a year in power... hard to get anything done in the first year... even you might be able to admit that, ehh?
I'd like to know also... that would tell US a lot.


Sorry, I hadn't realized Hezbolla was the government of any sovereign nation.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Jul 31 2006, 02:35 PM) [snapback]225907[/snapback]

Sorry, I hadn't realized Hezbolla was the government of any sovereign nation.

Please try and keep up.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Jul 31 2006, 12:35 PM) [snapback]225907[/snapback]





Sorry, I hadn't realized Hezbolla was the government of any sovereign nation.



Give them time. ohmy.gif

I heartily recommend anyone that didn't see the Lebanese envoy on MTP to find a transcript. He got as close to condoning Hezbollah's actions on all fronts as he could without actually showing membership papers.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE
Hizbullah has only few launchers left'
By YAAKOV KATZ AND JPOST.COM STAFF

The IDF assessed on Monday that Hizbullah's rocket launching capability was significantly compromised by the fighting that took place in the past three weeks.

It was estimated that, while the organization still has hundreds of rockets with a sufficient range to reach Afula and Haifa, there were only a number of launchers remaining with launching capability.

The Hizbullah still had several Zilzal rockets left that could reach central Israel, Army Radio reported.

In the course of the fighting, the IDF asserted that it had killed some 200 Hizbullah operatives. Though most of the names were not released, one of the more prominent targets hit was Jihad Atiya, who was said to be responsible for the killing and kidnapping of IDF soldiers Benny Avraham, Adi Avitan and Omar Sueid in 2000.

Meanwhile, it was released for publication that an IAF UAV bombed a truck that was said to have been importing weapons from Syria, through the Masnaa border crossing, into Lebanon.

The driver of the truck was wounded, as well as four additional Lebanese customs workers.

Israel had declared a cessation in IAF action, but reserved the right to attack in the case of immediate threat.

Lebanese police officials, however, said two missiles struck near a vehicle carrying relief supplies near the Lebanese customs post.

LBC television interviewed an unidentified man who was part of the convoy that was hit, reiterating that it was carrying private relief supplies from Syria.

(all) http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull

I take it these would be the launchers for the longer range rockets, rather than the Qassam shorter range rockets which need only a small pipe stand.

QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Jul 31 2006, 02:40 PM) [snapback]225909[/snapback]

Give them time. ohmy.gif

I heartily recommend anyone that didn't see the Lebanese envoy on MTP to find a transcript. He got as close to condoning Hezbollah's actions on all fronts as he could without actually showing membership papers.

I caught the rerun on MSNBC last night on your recommendation. I was a bit shocked at his apparent support of Hez.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(Human Ills @ Jul 31 2006, 01:42 PM) [snapback]225898[/snapback]

Looks like beezer finally passed out.


She's probably been tweaking for days. Sure acts like it.

QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Jul 31 2006, 02:32 PM) [snapback]225906[/snapback]

This is just plain silly.


Totally and utterly balderdashery. rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE
LBC television interviewed an unidentified man who was part of the convoy that was hit, reiterating that it was carrying private relief supplies from Syria.


Where they get their ordnance from as well.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Jul 31 2006, 02:38 PM) [snapback]225908[/snapback]

Please try and keep up.



My bad. sad.gif

QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Jul 31 2006, 02:40 PM) [snapback]225909[/snapback]

Give them time. ohmy.gif

I heartily recommend anyone that didn't see the Lebanese envoy on MTP to find a transcript. He got as close to condoning Hezbollah's actions on all fronts as he could without actually showing membership papers.


I saw that. Good on Russert for continuing to press him on that matter.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE
Hizballah fired only two rockets into Kiryat Shemona early Monday, but holds its Katyusha fire over northern Israel for the rest of the day

July 31, 2006, 10:15 PM (GMT+02:00)

Sunday, more than 160 Hizballah rockets hit Israel Sunday, July 30, in a stepped up blitz on Day 19 of the war. Kiryat Shemona alone took 100 Katyushas, inuring 9 people, one seriously. Fires around the town enveloped the town in heavy black smoke, homes and shops have been wrecked, malls and factories damaged and some 80% of Kirya Shemona's inhabitants have fled their Galilee town which they call hell. Haifa was briefly attacked after a three-day pause and is trying to recover from two weeks of constant rocket fire. Katyusha siren alerts sent people to shelters in Nahariya, Acre, Tiberias, Afula, Migdal Ha’emek and Nazareth. The total number of rockets fired in 19 days of Hizballah’s war has risen past 3,500.

(all) http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=3003

A rare show of restraint.
Bart Katz
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Jul 31 2006, 02:52 PM) [snapback]225914[/snapback]

(all) http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=3003

A rare show of restraint.


Taking time to reload.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Jul 31 2006, 12:49 PM) [snapback]225913[/snapback]


I saw that. Good on Russert for continuing to press him on that matter.


When I saw the first part I was ready for the usual "hard on only half" thing Russert does. But he was tough and fair on both. Israel didn't start the problem, but their actions are open for scrutiny as well.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE
Prime Minister says fighting won't end until rocket threat gone
Olmert: There will be no cease-fire in coming days

By Ze'ev Schiff, Amos Harel and Aluf Benn, Haaretz Correspondents, Haaretz Service and Agencies

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Monday evening that there would be no cease-fire in the coming days, despite a 48-hour halt in Israel Air Force activity in Lebanon.

"Israel is continuing to fight," Olmert said in an address to the nation from Tel Aviv. He said the offensive in southern Lebanon would end when the rockets fired by Hezbollah cease and the two Israel Defense Forces soldiers abducted on July 12 are returned.

"We will stop the war when the [rocket] threat is removed..., our captive soldiers return home in peace, and you are able to live in safety and security," Olmert said, addressing the mayors of northern towns.

He also warned that Israel still faced "no small number of days of fighting."

"We should be ready for pain, tears and blood," he said. "Missiles and rockets will still land in Israel in the coming days."

(more)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744695.html

Hez would love a cease fire at this time.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Jul 31 2006, 01:02 PM) [snapback]225920[/snapback]

(more)


Hez would love a cease fire at this time.



But the war is such a great recruiting tool. rolleyes.gif
Bart Katz
QUOTE
"We will stop the war when the [rocket] threat is removed..., our captive soldiers return home in peace, and you are able to live in safety and security," Olmert said, addressing the mayors of northern towns.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Jul 31 2006, 03:14 PM) [snapback]225923[/snapback]



Not much sense in slowing down now, since Israel has already taken the PR hit. Still no indication of a stronger ground effort. Without that, I don't see that Israel can accomplish all that much more.

QUOTE
Gazans also want multinational force
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

The Palestinian Authority is trying to win Arab
backing for the deployment of an international force along the border between the Gaza Strip and Israel, a senior PA official said on Monday.

The official said PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, who is currently on a tour of several Arab countries, has raised the idea of dispatching a multi-national force to the Gaza Strip. Abbas's initiative comes in the wake of US efforts to persuade several countries to join an armed force that would be sent to southern Lebanon.

"We also need international troops to protect us against Israeli aggression," the official told The Jerusalem Post. "If the international community wants to send troops to patrol the border between Israel and Lebanon, there's no
reason why a similar force should not be deployed in the Gaza Strip."

According to the official, Abbas raised the proposal during his recent meeting with US Secretary of State Condaleeza Rice, but did not receive a "clear" answer. Abbas has now
decided to bring the plan before the leaders of several Arab countries with the hope that they would exert pressure on the US to comply.

(more) http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull

Wanted: volunteers for human shield duty.
Lord_Proprietor
QUOTE
(SherryB @ Jul 31 2006, 02:11 PM)

July 31, 2006

The Return of the Neocons

They were down, but not out…

by Justin Raimondo

....That ending, however, is being challenged by the Israelis, whose jealousy of a thriving as well as liberal Arab neighbor to the north has, in part, driven popular support for the invasion. The cafes and skyscrapers of a revived Beirut attracted visitors from throughout the world, while tourists – except for Christian fundamentalist crazies and the thinning trickle of Jews making aliya – largely disdained the Zionist Sparta. For the Israelis, the sight of an Arab success story was a reproach and a reminder of their one big defeat.



That's really beyond silly!! blink.gif rolleyes.gif cool.gif
arebuntz
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Jul 31 2006, 04:42 PM) [snapback]225924[/snapback]

Wanted: volunteers for human shield duty.

Hey, don't we still have them Human Shields that voluntarily went to Iraq a few years ago? We could send them over and of course Cindy and her crew could get lots of media from there....
Bee
You people are laughable.

You loudly proclaim Israel's right to self-defense, but apparently Lebanon doesn't have the right to self defense?

Yeah, a militant terror group took two Isreli soldiers and then Israel went ballistic and attacked Lebanon. In the meantime, you mix up hizballah with the government of Lebanon as shamefully as you mixed up Saddam with 9/11.

It isn't working this time, or hadn't you noticed? The "Israel right or wrong" attitude isn't selling here at home as usual. Why?

You really ought to ponder that.

It could be the right's total lack of mmoral clarity on this and other issues.

QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Jul 31 2006, 03:47 PM) [snapback]225911[/snapback]

She's probably been tweaking for days. Sure acts like it.
Totally and utterly balderdashery. rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif



rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif

QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Jul 31 2006, 12:42 AM) [snapback]225674[/snapback]

Don't bother me right now. I'm busy whacking off to pictures of dead babies. You don't want me to fo'shizzle all over the inside of your screen.



Whereas you're just loaded as usual.

You're just smarting from the bee stings. Try vinegar. (I'd stay away from the wine vinegar, though, you make an utter pig of yourself when you are drinking.)

Come to think of it, when do you ever stop drinking?

Juuuust curious.
arebuntz
Another volunteer...
Bee
I'm not for protecting terrorists or either camp from eachother. I'll be happy to help the Lebanese government, and that is the right thing to do.

We should not have left them hanging. Israel blew it big time.

Did they even keep their word about the ceasefire?
arebuntz
Israel never said cease fire, just 48 hour stop to aerial bombardment unless premptive strike to stop attack on Israel or Israeli troops in Leb. Of course as predicted other folks would instantly turn it into cease fire and then document every imagined violation.

I am sure the Leb govt would appreciate the human shields as well....
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Bee @ Jul 31 2006, 05:14 PM) [snapback]225960[/snapback]

I'm not for protecting terrorists or either camp from eachother. I'll be happy to help the Lebanese government, and that is the right thing to do.

We should not have left them hanging. Israel blew it big time.

Did they even keep their word about the ceasefire?

It wasn't a "ceasefire" but a cessation of the bombing that Israel committed to.
arebuntz
Always good to smoke out the latent Islamic Radicals....
Bee
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Jul 31 2006, 06:21 PM) [snapback]225969[/snapback]

It wasn't a "ceasefire" but a cessation of the bombing that Israel committed to.



Did they honor it?

hunin
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Jul 30 2006, 09:46 PM) [snapback]225650[/snapback]

Yup. Like when the Pals were run out and sent to Tunisia.


'Course that brought the Hez.

Unless underlying problems are solved, even if ya could wave your wand and send Hez to Tunisia too, there'd likely be a HezII.

~~~~

Small quasi-ceasefire better than none at all, I guess:

QUOTE
...While fighting continued on the ground, the Israelis largely held to a 48-hour suspension of aerial bombardment of Lebanon that began today at 2 a.m. local time after an Israeli airstrike on Sunday, aimed at a rocket-launching team nearby, killed more than 50 civilians in a building in the village of Qana.

Hezbollah, too, held its fire, with the Israeli Army counting only three mortar shells landing in Israel today and no rockets, compared with a record 156 rockets launched on Sunday....


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/31/world/mi...artner=homepage
SherryB
QUOTE(Bee @ Jul 31 2006, 06:22 PM) [snapback]225971[/snapback]

Did they honor it?


NO
hunin
QUOTE(davisął @ Jul 31 2006, 07:25 AM) [snapback]225777[/snapback]

How many times does someone have to tell you lowlife douchebags that if you're against Israel killing innocent Lebonese you aren't for Hezbollah?


A gazillion it seems.
Friend Judy
It's that binary thinking thing. With us or against us. No shades of grey, no third choices.
hunin
QUOTE(Lord_Proprietor @ Jul 31 2006, 08:22 AM) [snapback]225796[/snapback]

Bart,

I think Scribe and the other metrosexuals, (who, BTW are like those who praised the Rose Ann Barr type singing of theSSB,) need to read the quote below and apply it to their thought process! They are our "Fifth Column"** along with so many in the MSM.


“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within.
An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor
moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very
halls of government itself. for the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his
victims, and he wears their faces and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the
hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to
undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer
is less to fear.

--Marcus Tullius Cicero 42B.C.

**
A secret subversive group that works against a country or organization from the inside. This term was invented by General Emilio Mola during the Spanish Civil War in a radio broadcast on October 16, 1936, in which he said that he had una quinta columna ("a fifth column") of sympathizers for General Franco among the Republicans holding the city of Madrid, and it would join his four columns of troops when they attacked. The term was popularized by Ernest Hemingway and later extended to any traitorous insiders.



Roseanne Barr? WTF? blink.gif

You're an idiot.
arebuntz
I just hope it's a well played game with lots of scoring....
Mizilus
no it is simply their completely dishonest approach to everything.
Human Ills
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Jul 31 2006, 03:53 PM) [snapback]225996[/snapback]

It's that binary thinking thing. With us or against us. No shades of grey, no third choices.

You mean like the way someone phrased a poll question here? Is that hexadecimal thinking?
hunin
QUOTE(davisął @ Jul 31 2006, 08:28 AM) [snapback]225799[/snapback]

Huh? I don't know anyone, right, left, insane, who enjoys or praises Roseanne Barr for singing.


NS. laugh.gif
Bee
QUOTE(hunin @ Jul 31 2006, 06:59 PM) [snapback]226002[/snapback]

NS. laugh.gif


IPB Image

It was incredibly bad. I can still hear that shrieking.

sad.gif
hunin
QUOTE(judy @ Jul 31 2006, 09:07 AM) [snapback]225808[/snapback]

LP,

We've had traitors for a long time, that's for sure.... but our traitors appear to be traitors. They proudly proclaim their support for our enemies by word and action. sad.gif


You're nutz.

Fascist.
davisął
QUOTE(Bee @ Jul 31 2006, 06:01 PM) [snapback]226003[/snapback]

IPB Image

It was incredibly bad. I can still hear that shrieking.

sad.gif



The crotch clutch was the most genuine part of the disgusting display.
judy
QUOTE(Lord_Proprietor @ Jul 31 2006, 01:59 PM) [snapback]225895[/snapback]

July 31, 2006, 1:04 p.m.

The Thirties All Over Again?

Nobody knows how this will proceed.

By Michael Ledeen



Growing up I always wondered how the Holocaust could have happened. I couldn't come to grips with the fact that people accommodated Hitler, closed their eyes to his deeds and allowed this horrific event to take place right under their eyes.


I'm finally coming to grips with this because history is repeating itself. We have world wide opinion siding with terrorists and condeming Israel. It's deja vu all over again.
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(judy @ Jul 31 2006, 07:08 PM) [snapback]226031[/snapback]

Growing up I always wondered how the Holocaust could have happened. I couldn't come to grips with the fact that people accommodated Hitler, closed their eyes to his deeds and allowed this horrific event to take place right under their eyes.
I'm finally coming to grips with this because history is repeating itself. We have world wide opinion siding with terrorists and condeming Israel. It's deja vu all over again.

You keep equating opposition to Israel's country wide bombing campaign against Lebanon as support for Hezbollah. I think the Arabs do support Hezbollah, but that others see Israel's response as far too big, and targeted against all Lebanese rather than just the terrorists.
judy
Hopefully LAND FOR PEACE is over

Hezbollah doesn't want land-for-peace, it wants genocide for peace.

Bad Omen

Jonah Goldberg

It seems to me the inescapable lesson of the current conflict is a depressing one for Israel and the United States. It ain't about land. In the 1990s, we were repeatedly told that Israel's problems could be solved via a geopolitical swap-meet. Everyone get together in back-slapping fellowship and trade land and, abracadabra, we'd have peace. It turns out, in Israel's case, this is nonsense. Hezbollah doesn't want land-for-peace, it wants genocide for peace. (Note: if someone brings up Shebaa Farms as "proof" Hezbollah only wants land, they will have annointed themselves "Sucker for the Day" in my diary). Of course, this generalization doesn't apply to every Arab talking head and potentate. But as far as the militants with the guns and the hearts and minds go, that's the reality. Perhaps there are deal-makers even among the Iranians, but the fact is Hezbollah means what it says and it's stock is going up, not down. That means all of the 1990s illusions about how the Arab-Israeli (now more of a Muslim-Israeli) conflict could be solved through negotiations have been exploded.

A similar lesson applies to America. Al-Qaeda is our Hezbollah (and, in a sense, Hezbollah was our al Qaeda before al Qaeda showed up on the scene). Immediately after 9/11, the argument was made repeatedly that al Qaeda should be treated like a bunch of militant Palestinians. It was our support for Israel, our military presence in Saudi Arabia, etc, etc, which "created" al Qaeda and sustained them. Stop doing what bothers them and they will go away. True or not, the fact is the question of what created al Qaeda in particular or Jihadism in general is irrelevant at this pont. Hezbollah was created by Israel's occupation of Lebabon. But until three weeks ago Israel no longer occupied Lebanon. This didn't make Hezbollah disappear. It made Hezbollah stronger. America could pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq tomorrow. This would not make al Qaeda weaker. It would make al Qaeda stronger. And not long thereafter we'd hear how if "we" only gave them Spain, we could have peace.


John Pod's "dark" musings are appropriate. In an existential conflict, you have to destroy the enemy. You can make deals with the cynical puppet masters and co-conspirators and you must try to thwart their support from the local population. But for the true-believers, there is no room for compromise. Article
Bee
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Jul 31 2006, 08:12 PM) [snapback]226033[/snapback]

You keep equating opposition to Israel's country wide bombing campaign against Lebanon as support for Hezbollah. I think the Arabs do support Hezbollah, but that others see Israel's response as far too big, and targeted against all Lebanese rather than just the terrorists.



Annoying, isn't it?

Thanks for trying.
roserose
QUOTE(Carol @ Jul 31 2006, 07:39 AM) [snapback]225781[/snapback]

Judy
..
Good morning rolleyes.gif
...

We know what Hezbollah terrorists thought of the UN outpost -- they thought of it as a perfect place to hide behind during their fight with the Israelis. As a Canadian soldier in the bunker wrote in an e-mail, Israel had to shoot near them for "tactical" reasons. Hezbollah was using the UN as human shields.

Sometimes the UN is even worse. In 2000, Hezbollah terrorists also kidnapped Israeli soldiers. UN video cameras caught the whole thing on tape, but UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan refused to turn the tapes over to the Israelis. A UN soldier stationed there later claimed the reason the UN didn't turn over the tape is because four other UN troops actually assisted in the kidnapping -- Indian troops, bribed by Hezbollah.

It wouldn't be the first time UN troops from dirt-poor countries do awful things while wearing blue helmets.

In Africa, UN troops have engaged in theft, rape and pedophilia. And recent Reuters footage shows a UN ambulance being used as a personnel carrier for Palestinian gunmen.

They know the Israelis will hesitate to shoot at an ambulance and take that as weakness.

Outrageously, Kofi Annan accused Israel of deliberately killing the UN troops in that south Lebanon outpost -- not saying a word about the fact it was used as a hiding place for Hezbollah. Indeed, an investigation into what went wrong on the Israeli side ought to be done. But another investigation ought to be done into Annan and his UN troops, some of whom may be nothing short of the terrorists' allies and camouflage. It's not unthinkable one of the "observers" in that bunker -- a Chinese soldier was among the four dead -- was indeed observing the battle closely.

China is Hezbollah's major arms supplier, through Iran. Most of the Hezbollah rockets are Chinese made.

Is that why the UN post was still "observing" the war even after it started?

Don't expect to get to the bottom of this, though. Annan is the same UN leader who oversaw the Oil-for-Palaces scheme that enriched Saddam Hussein -- and enriched Kofi's own son Kojo. Kofi investigated himself and his son, and -- surprise -- found nothing wrong.

Here's an idea for Harper: Pull Canada out of the UN altogether. It would save money, save Canadian lives, and probably make the world safer..
http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Lev...pf-1711362.html
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Follow the chinese tobacco money.

QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Jul 31 2006, 02:40 PM) [snapback]225909[/snapback]

Give them time. ohmy.gif

I heartily recommend anyone that didn't see the Lebanese envoy on MTP to find a transcript. He got as close to condoning Hezbollah's actions on all fronts as he could without actually showing membership papers.



QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Jul 31 2006, 02:49 PM) [snapback]225913[/snapback]

My bad. sad.gif
I saw that. Good on Russert for continuing to press him on that matter.


I made some mention of the whole show.

QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Jul 31 2006, 02:54 PM) [snapback]225915[/snapback]

Taking time to reload.


I hear at 2a (their time) the Israeli military cabinet voted 'Enough; time to go.' I'm also glad to hear reports some folks in the south heeded a suggestion I seconded a few days back. They walked out of the fray. I'm sorry to hear some others huddled their wives and kids and uncles and aunts in a house near a 'spotted' gun or two.

According to my ears (and I can't stand up for the source as more than a FOX talking head) but the guy says: (paraphrased) The Israeli pilot reads the 'overhead display' showing characters moving into this location after having detected fire. He paints the place; gets command permission; then nails the location.

I know I oversimplify what must be a very complicated process in such an elaborate chain of events, but I just thought it an interesting bit of input.

davisął
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Jul 31 2006, 07:12 PM) [snapback]226033[/snapback]

You keep equating opposition to Israel's country wide bombing campaign against Lebanon as support for Hezbollah. I think the Arabs do support Hezbollah, but that others see Israel's response as far too big, and targeted against all Lebanese rather than just the terrorists.



Precisely.
Bee
I'd say they were too dumb to know the difference, but I'm sure they do. It's the same sort of partisan crapola they buy into when they willing blur the lines between Saddam and Osama,.

Something twisted, even evil, about the pain and suffering that type of willful ignorance causes.

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judy
QUOTE(roserose @ Jul 31 2006, 08:28 PM) [snapback]226042[/snapback]


I know I oversimplify what must be a very complicated process in such an elaborate chain of events, but I just thought it an interesting bit of input.

You have a unique way of summing it all up! wink.gif
roserose
QUOTE(davisął @ Jul 31 2006, 07:32 PM) [snapback]226044[/snapback]

Precisely.


Perzactitudanally viewed.
RoccoR
'judy', 'Repub_Bub', 'Brian_Lambchops', et al,

Yes, ... many views and many questions.

QUOTE(judy @ Jul 30 2006, 01:24 PM) [snapback]225333[/snapback]

Do you think that having a "civilian' leader rather than the military leaders they had in the past has made a difference to the method of Israel's fighting?

(COMMENT)

It probably makes a little difference, in that a pure leadership that has no first hand personal experience at being part of the inner workings and hidden mechanisms of an anti-Occupation Force (Freedom Fighters), which is how Hezbollah sees itself, and which the Irgun, Lehi, Yishuv, Stern Gang and Haganah, saw themselves, will find it hard to understand the nature and appreciate the complexities of the enemy.

QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Jul 30 2006, 01:30 PM) [snapback]225336[/snapback]

Sounds like what the Israelis are already doing...the fact that the "camps" are often in town may actually impact the innocent collaterals as well as the time element.

What's the rush...simply to meet the capricious demands for results by the public?

Were I an Israeli on the ground I would really appreciate strategy vs satiation.

(COMMENT)

The camps I have mentioned, which are well known Hezbollah "training and logistic base" are NOT inside built-up Lebanese cities; although, over the last 30 to 40 years, they might look like ordinary cities. At the moment, the cities being trounced by the Israelis are inside the launch envelope. The strategy the Israelis is using dates back to WWII when the British Army of the Rhine went after rocket sites bombarding London. But these are not the bases in which the principle training and logistics emanates from to support the launch activity.

Time is the enemy of all military adventures. The Israelis are not totally unreachable or invulnerable to world opinion. The civilian leadership in Israel can only hold so much world pressure back, and then it will have to retract the IDF. The importance of this is in the ability to crush Hezbollah in a world-recognized decisive victory. If the pressure on the Israeli Government becomes too great, and a “cease fire” or other withdrawal is ordered too soon, and the major bases of Hezbollah escape intact, it will be perceived as a decisive victory for Hezbollah. That would make Hezbollah much more powerful politically and militarily. It will become more popular among anti-Israeli/American jihadists and a refreshed recruiting theme.

Yes, a “winning strategy” the unquestionably leads to a decisive victory is preferable to some other gratification. But if the Hezbollah escape, and a allowed to reconstitute its forces and tactical position because the IDF took to long and the Israeli government couldn’t take the pressure, then - - - what has Israel gained?

QUOTE(Brian_Lambchops @ Jul 30 2006, 01:38 PM) [snapback]225346[/snapback]

That would have to be the "invasion" everyone warned AGAINST.
In the middle of Beirut? Surely you jest. You're talking about a LOT of Israelis on the ground at great risk to save the lives of human shields. But when the Israelis lose foot soldiers the Hebollah will claim great victories.

This is a PR battle as well. One the Israelis aren't going to get a fair break with. They're better off bombing.

(COMMENT)

If Israel is not going to get a fair break, then it needs to focus on the key and essential elements that constitutes a decisive victory. If Irsrael uses its significant military forces to attack small launch sites and platforms, it is only going to succede in aleinating world opinion. You have to go to the source and destroy it.

Israel needs to get all the base camps, destroy all their supplies and eliminate it ability to provide any military logistics support to forward deployed Hezbollah elements. Israel needs to crush the command and control of Hezbollah. And it needs to do it before external pressures force an end to operations.

Most Respectfully,



CharlieRay
QUOTE(Bart Katz @ Jul 31 2006, 01:35 PM) [snapback]225907[/snapback]

Just because you're so farking confused, don't try to lay it off on someone else.
Sorry, I hadn't realized Hezbolla was the government of any sovereign nation.


Where did you get that?... you're making stuff up again... tsk tsk... et tu Space... rolleyes.gif

You both know that I was talking about the new government(less than a year old:~) of Lebanon.
Repub_Bub
QUOTE(RoccoR @ Jul 31 2006, 05:44 PM) [snapback]226057[/snapback]

But if the Hezbollah escape, and a allowed to reconstitute its forces and tactical position because the IDF took to long and the Israeli government couldn’t take the pressure, then - - - what has Israel gained?

What the hell does this mean?

If the allies fail to stop Hitler ... what have they gained?

Are you suggesting that if failure is a possibility the the venture should not be undertaken?

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