All,

I'm watching CNN and FOX with live shots of the French riots. I've heard a few commentators comment on the "people are scared and when they're scared they react violently". I personally don't think such justification is the place of the news. I haven't seen any on the street interviews to verify - and the actions observable don't seem to reflect much fear.

The only factual background I've heard from the talking heads is that France has 23% unemployment - an unprecedented cost load of guaranteed fringe benefits - 6 weeks of vacation and short working hours - and laws that make it almost impossible to fire workers... think of today's tenured teachers as a national system... they "can" be fired, but not without an incredible cost.

The riots are in reaction to a law that will make it easier to fire workers during their first year or so of employment.

I posted this here since it goes to socialism vs. capitalism which is the heart of many heated arguments on the main boards.

I don't mind heated debate - but I'd actually like to see a discussion that doesn't run off into personal attacks.

Does anyone have access to more background on the current unrest in Paris?

This is always a good place to start. Americans would riot too if they were stuck in their socialist caused hole.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fr.html

Economy France Top of Page
France is in the midst of transition, from a well-to-do modern economy that has featured extensive government ownership and intervention to one that relies more on market mechanisms. The government has partially or fully privatized many large companies, banks, and insurers. It retains controlling stakes in several leading firms, including Air France, France Telecom, Renault, and Thales, and is dominant in some sectors, particularly power, public transport, and defense industries. The telecommunications sector is gradually being opened to competition. France's leaders remain committed to a capitalism in which they maintain social equity by means of laws, tax policies, and social spending that reduce income disparity and the impact of free markets on public health and welfare. The government has lowered income taxes and introduced measures to boost employment and reform the pension system. In addition, it is focusing on the problems of the high cost of labor and labor market inflexibility resulting from the 35-hour workweek and restrictions on lay-offs. The tax burden remains one of the highest in Europe (nearly 50% of GDP in 2005). The lingering economic slowdown and inflexible budget items have pushed the budget deficit above the eurozone's 3%-of-GDP limit; unemployment stands at 10%.
1.5% (2005 est.)
purchasing power parity - $29,900 (2005 est.)
agriculture: 2.5%
industry: 21.4%
services: 76.1% (2005 est.)
27.72 million (2005 est.)
agriculture 4.1%, industry 24.4%, services 71.5% (1999)
10% (2005 est.)
6.5% (2000)
lowest 10%: 2.8%
highest 10%: 25.1% (1995)
32.7 (1995)
1.9% (2005 est.)
19.4% of GDP (2005 est.)
revenues: $1.06 trillion
expenditures: $1.144 trillion, including capital expenditures of $23 billion (2005 est.)
66.5% of GDP (2005 est.)

I wonder if the 23% unemployment rate I heard on the news was just among "the youth"... 18-24. I think it probably was. The 10% overall rate seems very comfortable - especially for the 25+ crowd who already HAVE jobs they have little threat of losing.

It may well be. I know the immigrants have it tough there too. Still, their growth rate is half ours and their unemployment rate is double ours. Per capita GDP 25% lower.

There's a social cost to being "fair".

I found this link. I can only comment that France has some serious problems and the populus is unwilling to make changes to try to correct the problems.










http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/19/internat...pe/19paris.html

The socialist view is that you get something by petitioning the government for it, not providing it for yourself.

The government could provide makework jobs for that 26% unemployed, but that's how they got where they are in the first place/ Coming back from socialism isn't easy, just look where our medicare and social security are headed.

JT,

I deleted your post in the interest of my stated intention to moderately moderate these folders. I hope you know you're welcome to comment seriously on the topic at any time.

I understand.....but you know that will come up as a aserious liberal argument

A moderate moderator is a joy indeed.

I was watching the CNN coverage and their take was that the problem was that younger workers weren't getting the same job guarantees that older workers have. I have to admit to not heavily studying the problem in france, but as far as I can tell the guarantees are part of the problem. Guaranteed jobs and benefits not only make the workers lazy, but take away the ability of business to react to market changes. If the company can't lay off a few now, they may end up having to shut down later and everyone is out of a job.

I...myself is trying to get a understanding why this new law is setting off riots in France?

Does France actually offer job guarantees without the possibility of losing that job due to incompetence?

I certainly would agree if France's structure is set up so workers can take on jobs without being held to any job performance accountabilities that certainly would 'encourage' workers to be as lazy as possible. If this is the case....now I have an understanding to why they are rioting over there on this issue.

That also would explain why France is anything but an economic power....now!

The CIA says they're moving toward privatizing and making a market based economy. I note the one thing they beat us on is their gini coefficient, or "fairness", but with a per capita GNP a quarter lower I'm not sure that helps anything but a small niche, not the society as a whole.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060319/D8GEISGO0.html



What good does it to to have a law that says you can't be fired, if you can't get hired in the first place?

Uh oh. So much for the seriousness of this thread.



So just which network reported it like that? I just somehow doubt that both CNN and fux news portrayed it in the same way.

Miz, I'm not sure I was switching back and forth (and seriously, if you have a better source for live unedited camera shots of international events, please share? I don't get BBC-TV on my cable system).

I know I heard it on CNN first, and I thought "typical, let's make excuses for this behavior" -- but then I heard a similar quote two more times... I think one of them was on Fox - but by someone being interviewed...

Apparently.....things aren't getting any better over there!


http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-03/...ent_4328790.htm

It's not quite so black-and-white, but by the same token what good is it to be easy to be hired and easy to be fired?

Both 'regimes' have their pluses and minuses. All in all, I would have to admit that younger and relatively as-yet-unskilled workers benefit from a . . . relatively easy to fire/relatively easy to hire regime.

As you might imagine, Spot, companies do actually hire new workers in France. And, they find other ways to deal with seasonal demand ups and downs, etc. Not all of which are particularly favorable to the 'least' among the workers in France (viz. the situation of the largely north-african descended youths in the 'burbs of Paris and other major cities).

Well if you ask me CNN and fux are the same shiite in different packages. CNN is second only to faux for parroting the republican party line.

Maybe they should have made them stay in north Africa. The easy to fire, easy to hire regimen only goes so far to hiring the entry level workers. Immigrants are likely to get the last shot at the worst jobs under any system. And the high general unemployment in France means there aren't even many bad jobs to go around.

Bee,

I would really like to hear your opinion of the piece you just posted.

I would have thought that you agreed with the French brand of socialism. (I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm just admitting to my impression of your positions.)

Would you share your position?

Maybe if she wasn't working all the time. In France that would probably be illegal.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle....ANCE.xml&rpc=22

PARIS (Reuters) - Hundreds of thousands of people marched in French cities and unions staged a one-day national strike on Tuesday, urging the government to scrap a youth jobs law in one of France's biggest protests in decades.

Unions and student groups said 2.6 million people took part in rallies across the country, including 700,000 in central Paris where police used tear gas against several hundred youths who threw bottles and Molotov cocktail petrol bombs.

A union official said the protest against Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin's CPE First Job Contract was one of the biggest since France's Fifth Republic was founded in 1958. Police put the turnout at 900,000, French television said.

Villepin hopes the CPE will reduce youth unemployment from almost 23 percent, but union and student leaders say it will create a generation of "throwaway workers" because it makes it easier to dismiss employees under 26 in a trial two-year period.
http://today.reuters.com/news/NewsArticle....ml&related=true

Reuters) - Millions of people went on strike across Europe on Tuesday. In Britain up to 1.5 million local government workers struck, closing thousands of schools and disrupting travel in a row about pensions.

Workers also went on strike in Greece, France and Germany. Here are some details.

* BRITAIN:

-- Eleven labor unions have combined to stage a 24-hour protest, the first in a series of demonstrations, which they say will be the biggest industrial action since a 1926 General Strike. Britain lost only 156,000 days last year through industrial disputes compared with 30 million in 1979. The average number in the 1970s was between 6 and 10 million.

-- At issue is the government's decision to scrap the so-called 85-year rule, under which members of the Local Government Pension Scheme can retire at 60 on a full pension if their age and years of service add up to 85 or more.

-- They argue the law to bring about the change is unfair as other public sector workers have had their retirement rights protected.

* FRANCE:

-- French trade unions staged a one-day national strike and tens of thousands took to the streets over a new job law - the First Job Contract (CPE). The strike was called to try to force conservative Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin to abandon the law.

-- De Villepin had hoped the measure would reduce youth unemployment from the current 23 percent, but union and student leaders have said it will create a generation of "throwaway workers" because it makes it easier to dismiss young workers in a trial two-year period.

* GREECE:

-- Tens of thousands of Greek bank workers went on a nationwide 24-hour strike in protest against government pension reforms.

-- The strike is the latest in a year-long conflict between bank employees and the government over how to make good an estimated 5.2 billion euro ($6.3 billion) deficit in the bank pension system ahead of planned privatizations.

Has anyone seen any updates from the international media. Last thing I heard from US news is that the French surrendered (surprise!)and modified the law, the thugs and mobs still didn't like it, but things died down into a general simmer of discontent.

France capitulated again. At least they tried a little bit.

Y'all need to educate me on how France managed to ever become a colonial power and win not a few military battles.

It's amazing . . . what with all the alleged congenital capitulation thingie that y'all appear to believe 'it' has.

It's been quite a while.

So? What changed?

They just ain't what they used to be.

In the texts selected for the course I taught in 20th century History, the authors (I'll try to find the book for future reference it's here in the black hole known as my home office somewhere - LOL) put forth the thesis that the end of the European Colonial Era, which included France, and even the US as a pseudo-European power, had its start with the First European Civil War, aka The First World War, and the final death knell was brought on by the Second European Civil War, WWII. When the second conflict ended the European Colonial Empires were fully doomed and nothing they desired could change that momentum - they were simply too spent, and their individual colonies had contributed so much to the Colonial Power's war efforts that they were actually strengthened by that contribution and the organizational efforts that made such possible in the colonies, at the same time the Colonial Powers were weakened both in infrastructure and spirit as well as control over those very colonies.

It was an interesting framework for discussion.

Well, there ya go. That's a much sounder framework than the usual nonsense about 'the French' being cowards and the assorted poopy.