Thanks to AV for establishing this moderated thread for me. I want to lay out the ground rules, please.
The subject is not whether or not we should have gotten in. The subject is not whose fault this is, or which party is evil and which is the good guys.
The subject is ONLY what we might do now that we are where we are. Partition? Containment? Stay the course? Unannounced ultimatum to the new government? Abandon the place to anarchy? What would be the consequences of each choice? Because, Bush is right about one thing--the consequences of cut-and-run are devastating. Of course, the consequences of staying the present failing course are also devastating.
So, head together. Solutions, not bitching, is what this thread is for. Pointless bitching will be deleted. So will FOAD. Everything else is fair game.
Full Version: Ground rules for this thread
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Jun 19 2006, 12:57 AM) [snapback]214146[/snapback]
Thanks to AV for establishing this moderated thread for me. I want to lay out the ground rules, please.
The subject is not whether or not we should have gotten in. The subject is not whose fault this is, or which party is evil and which is the good guys.
The subject is ONLY what we might do now that we are where we are. Partition? Containment? Stay the course? Unannounced ultimatum to the new government? Abandon the place to anarchy? What would be the consequences of each choice? Because, Bush is right about one thing--the consequences of cut-and-run are devastating. Of course, the consequences of staying the present failing course are also devastating.
So, head together. Solutions, not honeying, is what this thread is for. Pointless honeying will be deleted. So will FOAD. Everything else is fair game.
Congrats to your new thread FJ................
Time to rally the UN members on the Iraq/Iran border and head straight for Tehran, then knock off syria.
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Jun 18 2006, 05:57 PM) [snapback]214146[/snapback]
Because, Bush is right about one thing--the consequences of cut-and-run are devastating.
In which case Murtha, Odom and Pelosi, etc are wrong.
QUOTE
Of course, the consequences of staying the present failing course are also devastating.
Assuming that's true, and the first statement is true, we at least have a starting point for discussion.
Not so sure one can disconnect where we are stuck from what got us here.
The whole thang cut from the same cloth of disceptions.
All the probs predictable before the illegal invasion and ill-considered. Ill-prepared for.
And for 3 years it's all been playing catch up with sheit getting worse.
All the while staying the course.
That said, best of luck, ma'am.
Politics started the war - likely the only thing that will end it.
It will not be some achievement of peace methinks.
The whole thang cut from the same cloth of disceptions.
All the probs predictable before the illegal invasion and ill-considered. Ill-prepared for.
And for 3 years it's all been playing catch up with sheit getting worse.
All the while staying the course.
That said, best of luck, ma'am.
Politics started the war - likely the only thing that will end it.
It will not be some achievement of peace methinks.
QUOTE(hunin @ Jun 18 2006, 08:17 PM) [snapback]214183[/snapback]
Not so sure one can disconnect where we are stuck from what got us here.
The whole thang cut from the same cloth of disceptions.
All the probs predictable before the illegal invasion and ill-considered. Ill-prepared for.
And for 3 years it's all been playing catch up with sheit getting worse.
All the while staying the course.
That said, best of luck, ma'am.
Politics started the war - likely the only thing that will end it.
It will not be some achievement of peace methinks.
Perhaps I'm just a perfectionist...but according to the ground rules hunin's post represents an immediaqte violation.
Just an observation that requires attention before I can take you seriously.
You're right. But I'll allow a bit of latitude in the ground rules thread. For protesting the ground rules.
I gotta get in on this one... hope this isn't too incoherent, as I'm rUShed because Dad wants to play a game tonite(it is Father's Day:~)... and that's our "quality time"(a nice relaxing game of "kill-em-all", lol:~)...
Iraq was a mistake... most of US can agree about that... what seems to be the point of contention among US who believe this, is what the proper course of action is when there has been a mistake made...
Nations are not unlike individual people... with complex egos and self images... delusions... realities... biases and prejudices... weaknesses and strengths... emotions and moods... sanities and insanities... etc... existing in a necessary collective or society of other individuals or nations much like themselves...
Because most of US seem to be much more apt at more accurately examining and critiquing others rather than ourselves... let's look at ourselves as if we were not ourselves... as if we were another nation... let US look into the mirror...
Suppose that there was another nation... or an individual... a very powerful nation or individual... that had made a mistake... a horrible terrible mistake... that caused a lot of injury and/or death... to others in their necessary social collective... including their friends, aquaintances, enemies and loved ones... and to themselves... suppose that they refused to admit the mistake(quite naturally:~)... because their collective or individual psyche jUSt could not handle it... could not admit nor take responsibility for their terrible mistake...
WHat should that nation or individual do?...
First of all, let's try to limit the options to a very short and simple general list of what they can realistically do... and take a look at the consequences of each possible course... based on our own personal experiences and beliefs...
1. They could continue to ignore and deny their mistake... make all sorts of jUStifications for their mistake... deny that any change is warranted or necessary... stay the course created by that mistake...
I submit that doing this is yet another mistake... leading to a multitude of other mistakes... and in the case of powerful nations or individuals capable of completely destroying the entire collective society... quite possibly and/or probably, the BIG HUGE MISTAKE... that leads to their downfall and ends their existence... possibly and/or probably, when their collective society of nations or individuals confront them necessarily...
2. They could stop ignoring and denying their mistake... face up to the consequences and responsibilities of that mistake... accept that change is warranted and necessary... change the course created by that mistake... take responsibility and do whatever they can to amend that mistake... and ensure that mistake is never made again...
I submit that this is the only realistic course of action... that might lead away from many other mistakes... quite possibly and/or probably, including the BIG HUGE MISTAKE... making possible their continued existence... possibly and/or probably, taking away the necessity of their collective society of nations or individuals confronting them necessarily... because they have confronted themselves already...
Mistakes happen... I think that we can agree that everyone makes them... that every nation makes them... including US... I suppose that the difference is in WHat the individual or nation of individuals does after those mistakes are made...
I submit that all actions and events are influenced by actions and events prior... consider this carefully... what we do today affects, effects and changes what we and others do tomorrow... as individuals and as a nation of individuals... and as a world of individual nations...
Okay, turn it around now... that image in the mirror is US... we made this mistake... no denial or jUStification is going to make it jUSt go away... we can't bomb it away... we can't technology it away... we can't politic it away... we can't buy it away... we have to confront it... face it and deal with it...
What does that mean?... in a word, it means that we mUSt repent... realize that every death and injury that our mistakes and our lies about our mistakes have caused... is exactly what we deserve to be done to US... if we really believe in jUStice and that jUStice is to be equal and fair... it was US... we're guilty... we did it... no one else did... consider how badly we hurt after 9-11... then consider that we have killed and maimed a thousand times what we lost on that day... a thousand times of those who had absolutely nothing to do with 9-11 or our injury... including truly innocent children... all the while most of US cheering those who're doing it in our name... all political persuasions "supporting our troops"...
Hell, heartfelt repentance is our only hope of an "easy" way out... but even as reletively "easy" as it is, I suspect and regret that most of US aren't capable of it... and thUS is our fate sealed... armageddon... if not now, then eventually... our BIG MISTAKE... as it is with any other nation or individual that has taken the path that we are on...
What does "repent" mean in real action and endeavor in regard to our current war?... now that's a real good question... besides all of US donning sack cloth and ashes and crying in the streets, I'd say that right off we should quit killing them... leave their nations... and get prepared to send them lots of money to rebuild their nations... USing their own people and busynesses... in their own fashion...
I assume that while we may not share many political opinions or aspirations... we all have an engrained desire to live... and for our children to live... and I don't mean to overstate the importance of this... I believe that we are on a path towards Armageddon(the so-called "path of destruction":~)... as described to US directly in biblical terms... I believe that 9-11 and Afghanistan and Iraq are all events that are directly leading US toward that horrible event... our own BIG MISTAKE... but even more than those events, it is our refusal to confront our own mistakes that is relentlessly driving US toward it... and if we are to have any hope of changing the course of events and/or that final event... then it is our own mistakes that we mUSt confront...
The answer has little of nothing to do with "them"... with "those" other nations and/or individuals... it lies in US... in our own heart as a nation... and even more so, in our own hearts as individuals...
Behold, our nation is a harlot... and we are all whores(some more than others:~)...
Repent... even in sack cloth and in ashes...
Repent... even in prayer and in fasting...
Repent... even in our hearts and in our souls...
Repent... and change our hearts...
Repent... and change the world entire.
Iraq was a mistake... most of US can agree about that... what seems to be the point of contention among US who believe this, is what the proper course of action is when there has been a mistake made...
Nations are not unlike individual people... with complex egos and self images... delusions... realities... biases and prejudices... weaknesses and strengths... emotions and moods... sanities and insanities... etc... existing in a necessary collective or society of other individuals or nations much like themselves...
Because most of US seem to be much more apt at more accurately examining and critiquing others rather than ourselves... let's look at ourselves as if we were not ourselves... as if we were another nation... let US look into the mirror...
Suppose that there was another nation... or an individual... a very powerful nation or individual... that had made a mistake... a horrible terrible mistake... that caused a lot of injury and/or death... to others in their necessary social collective... including their friends, aquaintances, enemies and loved ones... and to themselves... suppose that they refused to admit the mistake(quite naturally:~)... because their collective or individual psyche jUSt could not handle it... could not admit nor take responsibility for their terrible mistake...
WHat should that nation or individual do?...
First of all, let's try to limit the options to a very short and simple general list of what they can realistically do... and take a look at the consequences of each possible course... based on our own personal experiences and beliefs...
1. They could continue to ignore and deny their mistake... make all sorts of jUStifications for their mistake... deny that any change is warranted or necessary... stay the course created by that mistake...
I submit that doing this is yet another mistake... leading to a multitude of other mistakes... and in the case of powerful nations or individuals capable of completely destroying the entire collective society... quite possibly and/or probably, the BIG HUGE MISTAKE... that leads to their downfall and ends their existence... possibly and/or probably, when their collective society of nations or individuals confront them necessarily...
2. They could stop ignoring and denying their mistake... face up to the consequences and responsibilities of that mistake... accept that change is warranted and necessary... change the course created by that mistake... take responsibility and do whatever they can to amend that mistake... and ensure that mistake is never made again...
I submit that this is the only realistic course of action... that might lead away from many other mistakes... quite possibly and/or probably, including the BIG HUGE MISTAKE... making possible their continued existence... possibly and/or probably, taking away the necessity of their collective society of nations or individuals confronting them necessarily... because they have confronted themselves already...
Mistakes happen... I think that we can agree that everyone makes them... that every nation makes them... including US... I suppose that the difference is in WHat the individual or nation of individuals does after those mistakes are made...
I submit that all actions and events are influenced by actions and events prior... consider this carefully... what we do today affects, effects and changes what we and others do tomorrow... as individuals and as a nation of individuals... and as a world of individual nations...
Okay, turn it around now... that image in the mirror is US... we made this mistake... no denial or jUStification is going to make it jUSt go away... we can't bomb it away... we can't technology it away... we can't politic it away... we can't buy it away... we have to confront it... face it and deal with it...
What does that mean?... in a word, it means that we mUSt repent... realize that every death and injury that our mistakes and our lies about our mistakes have caused... is exactly what we deserve to be done to US... if we really believe in jUStice and that jUStice is to be equal and fair... it was US... we're guilty... we did it... no one else did... consider how badly we hurt after 9-11... then consider that we have killed and maimed a thousand times what we lost on that day... a thousand times of those who had absolutely nothing to do with 9-11 or our injury... including truly innocent children... all the while most of US cheering those who're doing it in our name... all political persuasions "supporting our troops"...
Hell, heartfelt repentance is our only hope of an "easy" way out... but even as reletively "easy" as it is, I suspect and regret that most of US aren't capable of it... and thUS is our fate sealed... armageddon... if not now, then eventually... our BIG MISTAKE... as it is with any other nation or individual that has taken the path that we are on...
What does "repent" mean in real action and endeavor in regard to our current war?... now that's a real good question... besides all of US donning sack cloth and ashes and crying in the streets, I'd say that right off we should quit killing them... leave their nations... and get prepared to send them lots of money to rebuild their nations... USing their own people and busynesses... in their own fashion...
I assume that while we may not share many political opinions or aspirations... we all have an engrained desire to live... and for our children to live... and I don't mean to overstate the importance of this... I believe that we are on a path towards Armageddon(the so-called "path of destruction":~)... as described to US directly in biblical terms... I believe that 9-11 and Afghanistan and Iraq are all events that are directly leading US toward that horrible event... our own BIG MISTAKE... but even more than those events, it is our refusal to confront our own mistakes that is relentlessly driving US toward it... and if we are to have any hope of changing the course of events and/or that final event... then it is our own mistakes that we mUSt confront...
The answer has little of nothing to do with "them"... with "those" other nations and/or individuals... it lies in US... in our own heart as a nation... and even more so, in our own hearts as individuals...
Behold, our nation is a harlot... and we are all whores(some more than others:~)...
Repent... even in sack cloth and in ashes...
Repent... even in prayer and in fasting...
Repent... even in our hearts and in our souls...
Repent... and change our hearts...
Repent... and change the world entire.
QUOTE(Arturo_Vandelay @ Jun 18 2006, 08:17 PM) [snapback]214160[/snapback]
In which case Murtha, Odom and Pelosi, etc are wrong.
Assuming that's true, and the first statement is true, we at least have a starting point for discussion.
Hi folks, finally back and you left me cliff notes.
Ah, logic enters the game.
Hi CR; it's been a while since we hooked horns. Glad to CU.
QUOTE(roserose @ Jun 20 2006, 06:56 PM) [snapback]214542[/snapback]
Hi folks, finally back and you left me cliff notes.
Ah, logic enters the game.
Hi CR; it's been a while since we hooked horns. Glad to CU.
Aye, good to see you also...
Hook em up... and let's see how it sounds.
QUOTE(Repub_Bub @ Jun 18 2006, 08:30 PM) [snapback]214187[/snapback]
Perhaps I'm just a perfectionist...but according to the ground rules hunin's post represents an immediaqte violation.
Just an observation that requires attention before I can take you seriously.
Hate America First
Blame George Bush Second.
Despise Jesus and His Followers third.
The lefty Politics of Fear.
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