U.S. forces reach center of Fallujah
14 Americans killed in fighting over 2 days in city, elsewhere

The fighting in the city and elsewhere in Iraq has cost the United States at least 14 lives over the past two days, according to Pentagon figures. Eleven died on Monday, most in attacks outside Fallujah, marking the highest one-day U.S. toll in more than six months.

Outside Fallujah, meanwhile, insurgents kept up attacks on Tuesday. Raids on police stations in and around the city of Baqouba reportedly killed 45 people, most of them police. The attack was claimed by the terror group led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, according to an Islamic Web site.

Iraqi authorities later imposed the first nighttime curfew in more than a year on Baghdad and surrounding areas under powers granted by an emergency decree announced last weekend.

Hundreds of guerrillas were also swarming the streets of Ramadi, another insurgent stronghold 70 miles west of Baghdad. Gunfire rang out in the city center, and a destroyed car smeared with blood was seen.

Warren of alleyways
In Fallujah, U.S. troops found lighter-than-expected resistance in the Jolan neighborhood, according to NBC's Kevin Sites, who is with one Marine contingent. Sunni extremists were thought to be holed up in Jolan, a warren of alleyways


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6403689/?GT1=5809

fark those Christain woowoos anway, davis. You already got all them cutiepies pegged.

Do our military leaders expect these guys to stand and fight in a frontal assault?

The heavy hitter insurgents have moved to other areas while the US takes Fallujah. Insurgents stormed a police station in Baquba, lined up the cops against a wall and murdered them in view of the local citizenry.

Then they made off with the police station's arsenal.

Congress should declare war and send sufficient troops to get the job done.

Where would they get "sufficient troops" from, exactly?

send republicans... maybe they can lie and cheat their way through it all.

Germany, France, Russia, et al.

In 1966 over 300,000 young men were drafted in that year alone.

A draft?

No way!!!
Bushie said he wouldn't

file it with Kyoto and nation building

We can and should also enlist non-citizens into the US armed forces, espeically native speakers in the regions we are figting. Train them here, and deploy them in the middle east and south asia. Citizenship can be a carrot, but many will want to stay and take positions in their own liberated countries.

Gotta try.

"Urban Warfare Deals Harsh Challenge to Troops"

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/09/internat...artner=homepage

"FALLUJA, Iraq, Nov. 8 - The two marines were pinned down on a roof on Monday, pressing themselves against a low, crumbling wall as insurgents fired rocket-propelled grenades at them from a building near the middle of town.

Hours before, they had clambered over a railroad embankment - a berm, to the engineering-minded - and started their advance into this rebel-held city.


Commanders called in artillery fire on the building where the grenades were emerging, their tails spitting and glowing like sparklers across the sky. But the artillery only flattened the building next door to the one occupied by the insurgents.

"This is crazy," one of the marines said. "Yeah," his buddy said, "and we've only taken one house."

This is urban warfare, where the technological advantages of the American military can be nullified, at least for a few terrifying hours, by a few determined fighters in a warehouse or an abandoned home....

Even the captain concedes that this is nothing like a fight in the open desert, where the Americans are always fated to win, quickly. "The challenge is that the battlefield is three-dimensional," he said. "Not only do you have to look in front of you and behind you, but also above you and below you, even subterranean.''

This night would become a textbook illustration of those complexities. Captain Omohundro's unit started rolling toward the berm in armored personnel carriers from an encampment about a mile north about 7 p.m. He was supposed to meet up there with another outfit, but it had gotten lost...."

Good luck to 'em.

The Netherlands has turned into a hot spot. Since Theo Van Gogh was assassinated by a Muslim extremist with links to Al Qaeda, there have been 8 mosque burnings/bombings and 2 church bombings.

Adjusting for population, this would be the equivalent of 1,750 places of worship being bombed or burned in one week in the US.

Damn, that's serious.

"Adjusting for population, this would be the equivalent of 1,750 places of worship being bombed or burned in one week in the US. "

No big loss. Aint like God lives there and more poison comes out of those places than the rnc.

Ok. Maybe almost as much poison as the rnc.

About 70% of the RNC pours out of churches every weekend. Dems can only dream about capturing that constituency.

I didn't know they had 1300 Dutch troops in Iraq. As a percentage of population, that's more than twice that of US troops in Iraq.

In addition, the Dutch have more exposure to Muslim extremists within their own borders. They are certainly carrying their portion of load.



Pretty good article about the "SPIRAL OF VIOLENCE" in the Netherlands.

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticl...49§ion=news

The GOP should rename itself into GOPoP or GO PoP (catchy): The Grand Old Party of Pharisees. The Zionist Christian fundamentalists would be pleased.

80% of the US population is fundamentalists, in your all's view.

I noticed the big Dutch contribution the other day from one of Carol's posts on the coalition.


Thanks, Dutchies!

Not to mention their, on the basis of per capita and percentage of GDP, contributions to world health, immunization, food-aid, etc.

In a.v.'s world, all those don't count because they're just not the biggest, baddest mofos around . . .

I can't remember an example of AV denigrating the Dutch in particular, only Europeans in general (and the French, of course, and they ARE obnoxious.)

Rightwingers absolutely hate it that the French were correct about invading Iraq. I heard one Frenchie compare it to Algeria.

I most certainly can remember him denigrating the Scandinavians on just those grounds.

Whatever on the French. You should hear how Europeans perceive "loud Americans".

Those Americans are so flashy and loud. They have music in the background of their films!! Sacriligeous!!

lol

Heh, been that way for some time. The famed American tourist can't be blamed on Bushie.


http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/internatio...Casualties.html


"WASHINGTON (AP) -- American casualties in Iraq are mounting as the U.S.-led offensive in Fallujah unfolds. Monday's death toll of 11 was among the highest for a single day in Iraq since last spring, though most were killed elsewhere in the country.

As of Tuesday, the U.S. toll in Fallujah had been relatively light for urban combat...."

Hope so.

"...Lt. Gen. Thomas Metz, the senior American commander for the Fallujah operation, said he was pleased that U.S. casualties so far were limited to about a dozen. He would not be more specific, saying any number he gave would be quickly out of date, and did not say whether the dozen included wounded as well as killed in action.

Metz said insurgent casualties were ``significantly higher than I expected.'' Most of the rebel force, estimated at between 2,000 and 3,000, was ``fighting hard but not to the death,'' he said.

Casualty reports, particularly in a combat zone like Fallujah, sometimes are slow and imprecise because of the chaotic conditions...."

NS.

I don't like uniformed military leaders being asked by their superiors, goaded by journalists, and themsleves attempting, to sound like politicians during a press conference or company managers on CNBC. You cannot be doing (good) propaganda (supporting troop morale, rallying the citizenry, etc) while also pretending to be informing a critical citizenry AND not giving operational information. They should stop these live interviews, which amount to pathetic and embarrassing charades.

Pure baloney on your part, Nomarch.

No, actually it's only part-baloney. For a.v., it's not just being "big and bad" that counts, but also a "big presence" in science and technology and in the world of commerce.

Thus, my characterization was rhetorical and not exactly accurate. In that regard, it was partly baloney.

After the fiasco last April, I suspect they are very mindful of the parallel PR war. Very intent on that.

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/041109/w110996.html

"NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq (AP) - U.S. troops powered their way into the centre of the rebel stronghold of Fallujah on Tuesday, overwhelming small bands of guerrillas with massive force, searching homes along the city's deserted, narrow passageways and using loudspeakers to try to goad fighters onto the streets.

The move against Fallujah prompted influential Sunni clerics to call for a boycott of national elections set for January. A widespread boycott among Sunnis could wreck the legitimacy of the elections, seen as vital in Iraq's move to democracy. U.S. commanders have said the Fallujah invasion is the centrepiece of an attempt to secure insurgent-held areas so voting can be held.

As of Tuesday night, the fighting had killed 10 U.S. troops and two members of the Iraqi security force, the U.S. military announced. The toll already equalled the 10 American military deaths when marines besieged the city for three weeks in April.

As the offensive moved into a second full day, up to eight attack aircraft - including jets and helicopter gunships - blasted guerrilla strongholds and raked the streets with rocket, cannon and machine-gun fire ahead of U.S. and Iraqi infantry who were advancing only one or two blocks behind the curtain of fire.

Small groups of guerrillas, armed with rifles, rocket-propelled grenades, mortars and machine-guns, engaged U.S. troops, then fell back. U.S. troops inspected houses along Fallujah's streets and ran across adjoining alleyways, mindful of snipers.

A psychological operations unit broadcast announcements in Arabic meant to draw out gunmen. An Iraqi translator from the group said through a loudspeaker: "Brave terrorists, I am waiting here for the brave terrorists. Come and kill us. Plant small bombs on roadsides. Attention, attention, terrorists of Fallujah."

Faced with overwhelming force, resistance in Fallujah did not appear as fierce as expected, though the top U.S. commander in Iraq said he still expected "several more days of tough urban fighting" as rebels fell back toward the southern end of the city, perhaps for a last stand.

Some U.S. military officers estimated they controlled about a third of the city...."

Brilliant pysops copy. Sheesh.

Pure baloney. Even a rhetorical remark ought not be based on a false assumption. \

Listen up there, Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia! And that goes for the pygmy over there in North Korea, too.

Saudi Arabia? lol, I doubt that very much. Bush and company didn't hold Saudi Arabia ressponsible for 9/11, they blamed the Democrats instead! Funny how that happened. Friends in high places I guess.

They count, just not too high. Little countries are what they are. The fact they don't bear a lot of global responsibility doesn't give them any special moral authority in my view.

WTF does moral authority have to do with "global responsibility" - whatever that means.

We only have the forqing moral authority we claim.

We have not earned it except for having the biggest armed forces. Might making er, right.

Foolish strategic stance.

Sooner or later much of the responsibility ends up being ours, whether we do anything or not. If we do something it invariably isn't enough or it's too much. If we do nothing we invariably get blamed later for any bad consequences of inaction.

As a leftist you don't have to take responsibility either way. You just bitch no matter what happens.

As a realist I know whatever big ol lever we have, we need a solid "place on which to rest it."

W/o moral basis we have no "place." We become rogue nation. We have become rogue nation.

Time to rethink. Unjust wars gain us no firm place to stand to wield our lever to good ends.

Wield our lever? You gonna vote evil away? What good end? I've NEVER seen a lefty think anything or anyone was worth saving if there were any risk at all. If 5000 people a month die and it isn't your fault you're plenty content with that. The same old talking points. Rouge nation, unjust war, war of aggression. The same BS the left was whining about when they backed uncle Joe, Danny Ortega, Mao, Pol Pot and all the other fine upstanding peace lovers of the world.

Did Hunin really back Uncle Joe, Danny Ortega, Mao, and Pol Pot?

Well, excuuuuuuuuse me! I'd like to see you, ass hole, admit to anything of the sort.

Your performance today in spinning wild conjectures should be enough.

What do I expect, though . . .

Rouge nation? ROFL.

Vote evil away? No chance.

It will take a concerted, combined effort of will to make a dent.

Unilateral bullying will only make matters worse. It has done so I'm sure.

Yes we have the mighty lever of world's most powerful armies. We better have a solid place to stand based on honesty and integrity. At this point Iraq is an anchor not of stability but of weight. Bringing us down. And down. And down.

Folly.

Where the fark do you come up with these gems of bland generalization? The way you wield them, one is tempted to think that you were a Trotskyite at some earlier time, and the habits learned in that environment took hold.

Seriously, do you think that you, yourself, do not bitch and moan and whine incessantly?

http://slate.msn.com/id/2109377/


George Bush may subjectively be a Christian, but he—and the U.S. armed forces—have objectively done more for secularism than the whole of the American agnostic community combined and doubled. The demolition of the Taliban, the huge damage inflicted on the al-Qaida network, and the confrontation with theocratic saboteurs in Iraq represent huge advances for the non-fundamentalist forces in many countries. The "antiwar" faction even recognizes this achievement, if only indirectly, by complaining about the way in which it has infuriated the Islamic religious extremists around the world. But does it accept the apparent corollary—that we should have been pursuing a policy to which the fanatics had no objection?

[quote=Nomarchy,Nov 9 2004, 10:54 PM]
[QUOTE]As a leftist you don't have to take responsibility either way. You just bitch no matter what happens. [quote]

Where the fark do you come up with these gems of bland generalization? The way you wield them, one is tempted to think that you were a Trotskyite at some earlier time, and the habits learned in that environment took hold.

Seriously, do you think that you, yourself, do not bitch and moan and whine incessantly?

[/quote]


I generalize just the same way you folks do. If you want to argue one on one with specifics I suppose we could start a private topic.

Aww, bullying those poor little Baathists, suicide bombers, head choppers.

The nerve of us.

What? Huge advances for the non-fundamentalist forces in many countries? How so? And how exactly do we know that have inflicted "huge damage" on the al-Qaida network? And, based on what evidence can the author claim that we have been confronting only "theocratic saboteurs in Iraq"?

As for the Taliban, I can hardly contain a snicker. The author has GOT to be kidding . . . oh yeah, we've solved THAT problem that Reagan and Georgie's daddy created . . . Clinton heeelped with his help and support to the KLA and the Bosniacs . . . way to create the problem there . . .

And I labeled it all as conjecture and didn't cop out and say it was rehtorical and then try to throw in a couple more items in a later post trying to cover tracks. In fact the whole forqing discussion was suppositions, and conjecture. I thought everyone involved knew that.

You ought to know if you'd been paying attention.

What is wrong with you? I could have just ignored your commentary. That's what I get for responding to you . . .

Cover my tracks? Who the fark do you think you are?