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C-Span sucks community > politics > Political Soapbox > Friend Judy's Iraq thread
Friend Judy
Some good questions from a blog I stumbled across:
QUOTE
James Baker, the Iraq Study Group, and the Riddle Inside a Mystery Wrapped in an Enigma
James Baker, after saying that his Iraq Study Group will not report until after the election so as not to "interfere in politics," interferes in politics by leaking his conclusions: that he will convince George W. Bush to abandon "stay the course," for it is time for the U.S. to leave Iraq.

Is this a head fake to try to hold reality-based Republicans in line until after the election, given that Bush has no desire to change course at all?

Is this a signal that Bush is looking for cover to justify a withdrawal from Iraq, but will not take the initiative himself or announce withdrawal until after the election--because of what he fears a change of course now would do to Republican office holders? The bill for each month Bush delays doing what he should have done two years ago is 100 American soldiers dead, 500 American soldiers maimed, and perhaps 4,000 Iraqis dead.

Or is this a last-ditch attempt by Bush 41 partisans--reality-based Republicans--to use the stick of the election to make one more pathetic and vain attempt to unseat Cheney and company and get the stubborn and incompetent George W. Bush to recognize reality?

I think this is the first, and so does Helena Cobban. Pat Lang thinks it is the third. Steven Weisman says he thinks it is the second--but he's in the tank, and is saying what Baker wants him to say.
(Blogger goes on to post snippets of their opinions)

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2006/10/james_baker_the.html


And an editorial from a Middle East paper:
QUOTE
Out with it now!

24 October 2006

PROMINENT Senate Democrats are right in urging the White House not to wait till after the US congressional elections to give the Iraqi government a timetable to assume a larger role in securing the country. The Bush administration is understandably apprehensive that a strategy shift now might further upset the dipping public opinion.

But it bears noting that the month preceding the elections has already been one of the worst since the war began. Till Sunday, the US forces’ October casualty count had reached 83 with on-ground commanders admitting that the two-month plan to contain the insurgency had failed to achieve its aim. Bush’s approval ratings are below 40 per cent and with the violence constantly rising, it is difficult to see the Republicans maintaining their majority in Congress. It seems they are unable to decide whether announcing policy change now – which would amount to a marked departure from the stay-the-course stance adopted so far — would bolster the Democrats’ case in the public eye.

The word in Washington is that the administration might use the James Baker group’s findings to prompt an exit strategy, which is why it has set for the report to be issued after the November 7 elections. Seen in light of ground realities, there are two compelling arguments for making those findings, and subsequent strategy, public before the elections. First, the war has already thoroughly devastated Iraq.

To delay measures aimed at restoring some sort of order for the sake of securing Congress majority should only serve to further alienate the already discontented public from the powers that be. Second, it does not reflect too well on the world’s most powerful democracy, which went to war to supposedly spread the democratic values it cherishes, to keep its own people in the dark ahead of the crucial vote. Especially since the election result will have profound implications on American and therefore international politics.

Since the three years of occupation have only seen the security situation deteriorate in Iraq, it is important to seriously reassess things. It is more than apparent that the occupying forces are not able to handle the insurgency. Some are arguing that the dreaded civil war has already begun, something not easy to deny when presented with daily bombing and casualty statistics. It seems the only path to an ultimate solution is for the US to signal a phased withdrawal. That would augur well for the Iraqi government too. With the American departure imminent, the Iraqis would know that it would be up to them to sort out their differences, with minimised external influence. It’s time for the Bush administration to take the bull by the horns, and for once give politically correct rhetoric a back sheet to plain facts, and accept what ground realities imply.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle...torial&col=


So, what do you think? Is a policy change in the offing? Or are the hints and rumors for the election? Or is it a warning shot preceding a palace rebellion?

Or something else? What do you think is going on?
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE(Friend Judy @ Oct 24 2006, 07:41 AM) [snapback]253404[/snapback]

Some good questions from a blog I stumbled across:
And an editorial from a Middle East paper:
So, what do you think? Is a policy change in the offing? Or are the hints and rumors for the election? Or is it a warning shot preceding a palace rebellion?

Or something else? What do you think is going on?

First, Baker is on every news outlet because the President wants him to be.

At a minimum, Baker's actions give Republicans who may be concerned about the President's intransigence (State of Denial) reason to believe that he may be willing to adjust tactics while still remaining "tough" on the war.

This gives the Congressional candidates an opportunity to run away from the President's current performance with hope that he may change in the future.

Beyond the instant politics, the blue ribbon bipartisan commission of wise men is the classic PR device for introducing a "change in course" when manufacturing consent.

So Bush may in fact be prepared to do just that. It appears he is backing away from attaching US prestige and success to the achievement of a democracy in Iraq; redefining "victory" as a stable Iraq.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE
PROMINENT Senate Democrats are right in urging the White House not to wait till after the US congressional elections to give the Iraqi government a timetable to assume a larger role in securing the country. The Bush administration is understandably apprehensive that a strategy shift now might further upset the dipping public opinion.


One could as easily assume that Senate democrats ARE trying to upset public opinion. Granted, opinion pieces from middle east papers surely have as much political motivation as anyone. As much as our own mainstream press in any case.


QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Oct 24 2006, 10:23 AM) [snapback]253494[/snapback]


At a minimum, Baker's actions give Republicans who may be concerned about the President's intransigence (State of Denial) reason to believe that he may be willing to adjust tactics while still remaining "tough" on the war.



The people on the ground should be adjusting tactics, the President should worry about adjusting strategy.
hunin
QUOTE(SpaceCowboy @ Oct 24 2006, 12:23 PM) [snapback]253494[/snapback]

First, Baker is on every news outlet because the President wants him to be.

At a minimum, Baker's actions give Republicans who may be concerned about the President's intransigence (State of Denial) reason to believe that he may be willing to adjust tactics while still remaining "tough" on the war.

This gives the Congressional candidates an opportunity to run away from the President's current performance with hope that he may change in the future.

Beyond the instant politics, the blue ribbon bipartisan commission of wise men is the classic PR device for introducing a "change in course" when manufacturing consent.

So Bush may in fact be prepared to do just that. It appears he is backing away from attaching US prestige and success to the achievement of a democracy in Iraq; redefining "victory" as a stable Iraq.


Pretty much the way it looks to me. Some PR promise of The Secret Plan. Deja vu.

Meanwhile, the next 2 weeks are putting huge pressure on the military to cut losses methink. Quell the Violence! V for victory and all that jazz.

Operation Forward Part Deux is under pressure. Likely will try to stop the bleeding by sending in fresh blood. sad.gif

The beat goes on...
celtcahill
He's not change what he does, but the ' way he talks about the war' in a bizarre echo of Kerry in the campaign.


I know no one who buys this

QUOTE(hunin @ Oct 24 2006, 09:08 PM) [snapback]253593[/snapback]

Pretty much the way it looks to me. Some PR promise of The Secret Plan. Deja vu.

Meanwhile, the next 2 weeks are putting huge pressure on the military to cut losses methink. Quell the Violence! V for victory and all that jazz.

Operation Forward Part Deux is under pressure. Likely will try to stop the bleeding by sending in fresh blood. sad.gif

The beat goes on...

hunin
QUOTE(celtcahill @ Oct 25 2006, 07:21 PM) [snapback]253923[/snapback]

He's not change what he does, but the ' way he talks about the war' in a bizarre echo of Kerry in the campaign.
I know no one who buys this



Good to see you, Brother cahill!

AFT. wink.gif

No really, bushie seems to be changing some course. Didn't mention democracy nor democratic once today in re Iraq.

QUOTE
Text of Bush's News Conference


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...p;type=politics

That does lower the bar. Considerably.

Probably not enuf tho.
celtcahill
I'm Back, I believe. New machine, same old dial-up - the flaws in small town life and my income.

Lessee, it's been a year, I have not caught up yet, and frankly, there is not a great deal new in my life as I appear to have none when not on this site.

The youngest some of you remember was in New Orleans, but was working in Glacier when Katrina hit, but was back there and working sonce last October, and doing well. The son is well the oldest well and pregnant, the wife and I hit 34 years alst month.

I'm still voting Nader if nothing better shows up.

Days gona come he'll be glad the Iraqi Army doesn't start attacking us directly.
hunin
The 'read' portion of the conference was pretty good really. Surprising mention:

QUOTE
And we've suffered casualties of our own. This month we've lost 93 service members in Iraq; the most since October of 2005.


Can't get much realer than that. Actually speaking the numbers.

When it got to answering questions, Bushie seemed stuck in the old paradigm.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(celtcahill @ Oct 25 2006, 05:30 PM) [snapback]253926[/snapback]
I'm Back, I believe. New machine, same old dial-up - the flaws in small town life and my income.


Glad you're still alive. People come and go, but news and politics remain.
hunin


QUOTE(celtcahill @ Oct 25 2006, 07:30 PM) [snapback]253926[/snapback]

I'm Back, I believe. New machine, same old dial-up - the flaws in small town life and my income.

Lessee, it's been a year, I have not caught up yet, and frankly, there is not a great deal new in my life as I appear to have none when not on this site.

The youngest some of you remember was in New Orleans, but was working in Glacier when Katrina hit, but was back there and working sonce last October, and doing well. The son is well the oldest well and pregnant, the wife and I hit 34 years alst month.

I'm still voting Nader if nothing better shows up.

Days gona come he'll be glad the Iraqi Army doesn't start attacking us directly.



Ditto the dial-up.

Heh, you have life, dad.

Scr@w the catch-up, man. You know what's gone south over this time. Join the now. biggrin.gif
celtcahill
" So, what do you think? Is a policy change in the offing? Or are the hints and rumors for the election? Or is it a warning shot preceding a palace rebellion? "


Bush is in power when things are confused, out when things are stable, however bad they may be.

Things are confused, because people are paying attention to him, hoping thatt that will get them their way.

The ground forces want more ground forces - at least for a while - perhaps hiding it from public notice by overlappig the 1st Cavalry now leaving with the 4th ID now supposed t be returning, but perhaps even something more than that.

If the current leadership of Iraq is going to subvert/forbid effective command decision making - ALA Viet Nam, yet again - then maybe a few more of our troops will get him to come around. Better if we could get Sadr to cooperate with us getting rid of his wild cards, but he is not going to see it that way. In any case, just holding the ground we're on might give something else a chance for forward motion.

I think the Reps are now merely wishing they really did have McCain, and are trying to find a way to save their bacon long enough to give him a shot in '08, as if they don't get in then, they won't see the Whitehouse for a looong looong time.

Especially if there are actually trials and without them, when all the books get written....


'Course, I thought Watergate would do that.....
hunin
When the course doesn't mean the course.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews...cs/15847563.htm

QUOTE
WASHINGTON - The Bush White House is known for staying on message, but its message on Iraq has grown a little murky.

President Bush acknowledged as much on Wednesday, when he used a hastily scheduled news conference to try to clear up some of the confusion.

"Stay the course" is no longer operative. "Timetables" are bad, but "benchmarks" are OK - as long as they don't include deadlines. Our goals are "unchanging," but our tactics are "flexible." And we're "winning," unless we leave too soon, and there's "tough fighting ahead. We should not expect a simple solution."

His semantic tap-dance highlights one of the president's toughest election-year challenges: how to show war-weary voters that he's confident and resolute, without giving the impression that he's unrealistic and inflexible.

"I know many Americans are not satisfied with the situation in Iraq," Bush said. "I'm not satisfied, either."

Polls show that voters want more than presidential reassurance; they want to know that Bush has a credible plan to bring the troops home. This week's McClatchy-MSNBC poll found that voters in key election-battleground states list the Iraq war as their top concern. Their dissatisfaction has helped put Republicans at risk of losing control of Congress in the Nov. 7 elections.

Bush's domestic balancing act is complicated by a ticklish diplomatic problem in Iraq. Any effort to pressure Iraqi leaders for action that would please Americans - for example, a crackdown on marauding Shiite militias - fosters resentment in Baghdad, where the government doesn't want to be seen as a U.S. puppet and dares not confront the powerful militias.

All of the domestic and international pressures came into play this week as Bush tried to address voter unease over the war.

"The way he's dealing with it is to try to fudge and fuzz up the issues," said Richard Kohn, a visiting history professor at the U.S. Army War College and Dickinson College, both in Carlisle, Pa. "On the eve of a crucial election, there's so much dissatisfaction with his leadership and the war itself that he has to give the impression that he's rethinking his strategy."

On Monday, administration officials denied reports by McClatchy Newspapers and The New York Times that the administration was working on a plan to prod the Iraqi government into action by setting clear benchmarks for progress. White House spokesman Tony Snow also revealed that Bush had dropped the phrase "stay the course" because it "left the wrong impression" that the president was inflexible.

On Tuesday, U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad told reporters in Baghdad that Iraqi leaders had "committed themselves to a timeline" for progress.

At a joint news conference with the ambassador, Gen. George Casey, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, said he expects Iraqi security forces to take over most of the work from Americans in the next 12 to 18 months. In almost the same breath, Casey said he might need more U.S. troops.

Back in Washington, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld deviated from the script by dismissing as "nonsense" the idea that Bush was no longer "staying the course" in Iraq.

On Wednesday, Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki testily told reporters that "no one has the right to impose a timetable" on Iraq. He also objected to a U.S. raid on Sadr City, a Baghdad slum that serves as the headquarters for the leading Shiite Muslim militia.

Democrats seized on the contradictions as evidence that Iraq policy is in disarray
....


Oh no, everything running smoothly.

hunin
http://www.registerguard.com/news/2006/10/...section=opinion

QUOTE
Not with a bang but a whimper did "stay the course" fade away as the sound-bite synopsis of President Bush's strategy in Iraq.

Last week, Bush told George Stephanopoulos of ABC News, "Listen, we've never been stay the course, George. We have been - we will complete the mission, we will do our job and help achieve the goal, but we're constantly adjusting the tactics."

To hear White House Press Secretary Tony Snow's revisionist spin on it, "stay the course" has never been an accurate characterization of administration policy, "because it left the wrong impression about what was going on."

For readers who still don't understand why this president's credibility is next to nonexistent when it comes to pronouncements about Iraq, contrast "we've never been stay the course" with these statements from previous Bush speeches and interviews:

"We will stay the course ... and victory in Iraq will be a major ideological triumph in the struggle of the 21st century." (Aug. 30, 2006)

"We will stay the course, we will complete the job in Iraq." (Aug. 4, 2005)

"And that's why we're going to stay the course in Iraq. And that's why when we say something in Iraq, we're going to do it." (April 16, 2004)

"And my message today to those in Iraq is: We'll stay the course." (April 13, 2004)

"And so we've got tough action in Iraq. But we will stay the course." (April 5, 2004)

"We will stay the course until the job is done, Steve.

"And the temptation is to try to get the president or somebody to put a timetable on the definition of getting the job done. We're just going to stay the course." (Dec. 15, 2003)

Actually, the temptation is simply to beg Bush to tell the truth, to level with the American people and to stop pretending the catastrophe in Iraq wouldn't be such a devastating Republican liability if people would just turn off their television sets and stop reading newspapers.

President Bush is attempting a rhetorical Hail Mary pass.

As the days wind down toward the midterm elections and polls indicate the Iraq debacle is damaging Republican candidates from coast to coast, Bush is trying to persuade the American people that he isn't stubbornly clinging to a policy that any middle school student can see has failed.

So "stay the course" has cut and run. Say hello to its replacement, offered by Bush last Thursday in a Virginia speech:

"We will fight, we will stay, and we will win in Iraq."

In case the tactical shift flew under the radar on Thursday, Bush repeated it on Friday, slightly altering the order:

"And so we will stay in Iraq, we will fight in Iraq and we will win in Iraq."

If that doesn't sound too terribly different from "stay the course," it's because it isn't....


Win what? What's the win?

How much to save face?

A definite concensus of that metric would be sweet.

celtcahill
Too late even to save face. We look dumber and dumber each day and more and more beligerant without actually doing anything effective.

I don't think we are credible anywhere nor do I think we have anythiing politically left to sell.

Even getting out will not help most of that, but stay or go, everything we wish to avoid is going to happen anyway.

The people we're fighting think a draw is victory, that struggle alone with no hope of motion is victory. Hamas, the Palestinians and Sadaam all victors we the losers and they get a new generation of holy warriors.


We don't even get credit for being unwilling to kill all the people we'd have to to make it stop.
hunin
Sure we do.

Just some years from now. Many.

After the fiasco settles.
Bart Katz
No respect. sad.gif
Human Ills
QUOTE(celtcahill @ Oct 25 2006, 06:44 PM) [snapback]253958[/snapback]

We don't even get credit for being unwilling to kill all the people we'd have to to make it stop.

Might as well do it whole-assed.
celtcahill
HI


I dunno, if we'd done that in Hanoi in '67, where'd we be now ?

'Nite all
hunin
'Nite, Texas.

Me too.

CyaL8R.
Arturo_Vandelay
QUOTE(Human Ills @ Oct 25 2006, 07:24 PM) [snapback]253967[/snapback]

Might as well do it whole-assed.


Bingo. From the start we tried to be sensitive, avoid casualties on BOTH sides and would up getting no respect from the enemy, and ended promoting even more trouble. Worse yet half the neo-peacniks who voted for the war are now using it as a political weapon.
inyerface
from the start:

SHOCK AND AWE

Bart Katz
Time for shock and awe II
inyerface
why?
Bart Katz
Bring em back in line.
inyerface
back?
Bee
Hi celt!

Bush has a secret plan to change the course. I think he's going to full time ass covering. It'll will hopefully be as effective as everything else he's done.

laugh.gif
skolapper
Anyone know about these STBs? I cant find anything about them at the Bush site. The closest they list is a freeview model - DFTA42FV, which also has a front usb port. Google only shows one result for the model no. Could they be doing a deal with just BigW on this box?
ALounny
you know how GW Bush feels about Roe vs. Wade, right?











He doesnt care how the poor people get out of New Orleans.
Spot
I guess a bus doesn't even enter into the discussion. Those they had lots of.
inyerface
the astrodome worked out great
SpaceCowboy
QUOTE (inyerface @ Nov 28 2009, 06:31 PM) *
the astrodome worked out great

Yes, the folks who escaped New Orleans to Houston were welcomed at the Astrodome.
Arturo_Vandelay
I'm sure lefties were begging folks to move in.
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